Connecting with and Listening to Students with Dominick Sanders

In this interview with Dominick Sanders, we discuss the importance of connecting with and listening to students, the impact of being a positive role model for kids, considering equity for individuals and across the entire state of South Carolina, what Dominick learned through their experience with Xposure STEM, Dominick’s plan for improving CS in South Carolina, Dominick’s experience with CSTA’s Equity Fellowship, how Dominick continues to learn and grow as a CS educator, thinking through intersectionality in relation to representation, and so much more.

Welcome back to another episode of the
CSK8 podcast my name is jared o'leary
each episode of this podcast alternates
between solo episodes where i unpack
scholarship in relation to computer
science education
and episodes with a guest or multiple
guests where we discuss a variety of
topics related to computer science
education
in this week's particular episode i'm
interviewing dominic sanders and we
discuss the importance of connecting
with and listening to students
the impact of being a positive role
model for kids considering equity for
individuals and across the entire state
of south carolina
what dominic learned through their
experience with exposure stem
dominic's plan for improving cs in south
carolina
dominic's experience with csta's equity
fellowship
how dominic continues to learn and grow
as a cs educator
and thinking through intersectionality
in relation to representation
as with each of the podcasts you can
access the show notes by clicking the
link in the description for the app that
you're listening to this on or simply
going to jaredaler.com
inside the show notes you'll find some
links to many of the topics that we're
discussing including some other podcasts
that i mentioned
or to learn more about something like
the cst equity fellowship that we
mentioned
at the end of the podcast or to even
connect with dominic on twitter or
linkedin
at jaredgelary.com you'll also find
hundreds if not thousands of resources
that are relevant to cs educators
including free lesson plans that i
created for boot up and some
presentations publications etc that are
relevant to cs educators
all of it's free so if you enjoy it i
just ask that you might consider sharing
with somebody else
and if you enjoy this particular episode
and want to recommend a guest
including yourself or do you like to
potentially partner on
some future grant collaborations feel
free to click the contact me button on
my website
as i'm always interested in
collaborating and learning from others
but with all that being said we will now
begin the interview with dominic
introducing himself
hello everyone my name is dominic
sanders i am the current
computer science state supervisor for
the state of south carolina
prior to this i was a computer science
educator
in nashville tennessee and i'm also a
csta so computer science teacher
association equity fellow
and i'm originally from st louis
missouri can you tell me the story of
how you got into computer science
education
ironically my dad actually has a
computer science degree but it really
wasn't until
probably around the sixth grade i was a
part
of the national science of black
engineers so they had a pre-college
initiative formerly known as like
despite junior so just
being in that program and being around
like like-minded individuals kind of
sparked my interest
into the field of just like computer
science and engineering so
even though i was kind of exposed to it
at home but my dad used to talk about it
it wasn't really
that cool because i was like no dad like
definitely not people are gonna think
i'm
following your footsteps and we're total
opposites but
ironically i you know pursued computer
science but yeah it wasn't until i
really got into
that organization and really got my feet
wet with like programming and everything
else that came along with it so
and what made you decide to go into cs
education rather than just cs
so actually that was in college
so i was always tutoring doing a lot of
extracurricular
activities i was always like being
around people and then like everybody's
like oh yeah you're very good at like
explaining things
and they're very good like because of
you like i you know did that in math or
because of you i thought about you
and i really wanted now for super peter
science so i just felt like it was like
an
easy um segway and then also i think the
light bulb went off one time when i was
at church when i had my pastor was
talking about like
finding your passion and he was like you
know it's your passion when like
you try to like steer yourself in like
other directions and then like
you eventually end back to like where
your passion is because sometimes you
don't even recognize this so
you go on another tour another avenue
and then
back in it and i was like that's the
light bulb right there so then i'm just
stuck with it
now i've had a lot of moments in my
educational journey that have had like a
profound impact on me whether it was
positive or negative i'm curious if you
could tell a story of
an experience that you had in education
that had an impact on you oh man i've
had
so many i think some of my favorite
experiences i guess like changing the
narrative
of what a african-american male can do
so when you think about like the field
of education
there's not a lot of us at the two
percent everybody always talks about the
two percent
and then like when you throw in like i'm
teaching like computer science it all
you know makes me even that much smaller
but then like it's seeing like
from the first day of school
when people find out that i'm a computer
science teacher to like
the end of the school year where i have
kids that weren't
never even thought about pursuing
computer science or you wanted to take
like computer science course
to now wanting to be in the class so i
think those are some of my
favorite moments because a lot of them
just don't really understand like
how computer science is everywhere and
computer scientists were still everyday
people so then like i would always like
coach tracker you see me at the
basketball games or
going to the football games or then like
when we had down time when i still was a
classroom teacher
talking about sports they're talking
about you know the different things that
they like
we're talking about we would have like
musical debates like who's a better
rapper who's a better singer
just so they can see that like computer
sciences we're still like everyday
people
they just think like oh computer science
or engineering
you're on the you know the other side of
the planet like oh we do the same things
you guys like i'm curious how did you
try and actively recruit
groups that were not represented in your
classes that you're in so
just as an example if you had majority
male
a couple of non-binary but very few
females
in your class how might you try and
recruit to get
more diversity within gender
representation to be honest i really
never had
problems like that i don't know maybe
it's because i was like the
african-american male and i was teaching
that so a lot of people were just you
know so intrigued to
be in the class and then i was one of
those teachers that was like very
present
so you would see me again after games
you would see me at the basketball games
you would see
me at the volleyball games and then just
having like those casual conversations
you know with the kids in the hallway or
at the football game hey
you did good but you know last week you
told me you're gonna have five tackles
and
i was out there counting you know you
maybe came up short
you know building those different
relationships with the students early on
and then
even still building those relationships
with students that weren't in my class
when it came time
for students to enroll in the class i
never really had
like an issue with that everybody mr
sanders i'm trying to get in your class
is there anything you can do i was like
i'm not the person to talk to about
scheduling
look i'm only offering four sections so
you guys knew when the classes started
hey i may run a little after school stem
club or something like that you can
catch me then but if you didn't sign up
when it first started then
unfortunately sorry catch me next year
that reminds me a lot of jason bohr's
response as well so he was also saying
that he would go to the various like
events that
students were at and just kind of talk
about computer science and just be
present
that present speech is key what about
something that you first believe when
you're working
in education that you no longer believe
so what has changed over that trajectory
i think the biggest thing that's
probably changed
is like kids like really want to learn
so like on the outside looking in if you
have kids that have like for example
like a behavior issue
and you just feel like oh he's just
acting out because you know he doesn't
really want to be in school no majority
of the kids actually want to be in
school
you just have to make sure that you're
doing your part to like find
the root and then once you find the root
it's like magic
and those were actually some of my
favorite students to work with in the
class they're like oh yes
these behavior problems i'm like oh okay
well you know send them to my class
and then maybe after like two or three
weeks and then they're in there and
rocking that was like what you do
different well i listened to
well when i was giving them examples i
showed them that i cared about them i
showed them that you know i believed in
them not only was i doing that when i
was giving
the one-on-one instruction i'm talking
to him
making sure that he understands what's
going on i'm also giving him
examples that i know he can relate to i
know he loves football
i know he loves rapping like these are
different things he loves soccer if he
loves food
so like on a high level i'm just giving
hey okay we're
working on project 4.4 and as i'm
walking around
hey in your project relate yours to
football
think about the different positions if
it's a chick finger
if it's making something dealing with
like food think about those different
things and that was kind of how i was
able to
like relate the message and get those
students out for the home i think it
always comes back to
knowing your kid and then figuring out
what computer science
really means to them like i said that
really goes a long way yeah especially
if it's a mandatory class
so like in the k-8 school that i was in
everyone was required to attend it
and because of that i couldn't assume
buy-in so if it's an elective class i
could assume oh well you chose to be
here
you're taking part of this elective
class but when everyone was
forced to be in it there were kids who
were just like what's the point of this
and so starting with that interest and
starting with well what
do you actually care about and how could
we explore that through coding and
computer science
and when the principal and assistant
principal come into my room they'd be
like how did you
get them to like actually do work it's
like well we started with what they care
about what do you feel is holding back
educators or the field what can we
actually do about it to be honest i
think
there is still this great area in
regards to what computer science is and
what computer science isn't
for example like here in south carolina
like one of the things just like all my
to-do list
like adopting like a universal like
definition of actually what like
computer science is
and then also making sure that they
understand that like
computer science is number one like not
going anywhere
and computer science is like intertwined
in so many things
so i think that also comes with that
like exposure piece when you think about
like computer science because everybody
just
thinks oh everybody's just coding coding
coding but yeah computer science even
though people are coding
computer science is based on the back
end of a lot of these
like real world forms that we're having
so before
you know you did it this way but because
of now computer science now you're able
to do you know x y and z and all those
different things
so when i was reading your cst equity
fellows bio
i saw that you had a near a favorite
quote of yours and so the quote is
you can be what you can't see so i'm
curious why is that one of your favorite
quotes
i'm a firm believer of that because it's
hard sometimes
like depending on like where kids like
grow up or where you're exposed to
for them to like reach for the stars if
you don't have like that champion or
have somebody
to you know look up to that looks like
you or you can
relate to so i think for me like that
was another reason why i went
into education because like you always
hear oh well
there's not a lot of african-american
men that are pursuing teaching
or when you're looking at the minority
numbers the minority numbers
to get kids to computer science and
engineering they suck but nobody ever
talks about
like you can give the kids resources
resource resources if they don't have
someone
that they can relate to that you know
has some of the same struggles or they
can really you know
hang on to the numbers still going to
stay the same so it's all about
that positive role model just like i
said i was going basketball games
football games
chess cross i was going to everything
even when i was coaching track
i'm a little older than the kids i may
not run you know all the 400s with you
but i'll still get out there
and you know run a few with you because
then over the years my kids will be like
oh yeah well
in practice like mr sanders oh he's
going to push us because when we're at
the meet
that's the mind frame that we have like
if mr sanders catches us it doesn't
count if i
do bad thing mr sam's gonna be like oh
yeah that didn't count that didn't count
so running again that's all about you
know just like that exposure piece and
just being like that positive role model
i think that goes a long way when you
have somebody hey
i do actually know an engineer i
actually do know a computer science
i actually do know a doctor or a lawyer
so yeah so
it gets especially complicated when we
think about the various
intersectionalities and whatnot so i'm
curious
how does that quote kind of inform your
own
approach in cs education by now it's
just really like just embedded
in my brain so when i'm making those
decisions i'm thinking about
like all the students and then i also
love the quote like i'm as strong as my
weakest
link so making sure that like hey now
that i'm in this
supervisor role this county may have all
the resources
but if this county doesn't have no
resources to get them over the finish
line
the chain is still broke that's kind of
how i you know approach things like even
when i'm talking like different like
curriculum providers hey i know you're
sure very aware of this like pandemic so
how accessible is your curriculum on a
smartphone
it doesn't have to be the best but i
know that some kids do not have
them all they do is have a cell phone so
can they still access it
on you know a mobile phone or stuff like
that so i try to think of everything
as this holistic approach i also have
like
pictures on my desk of like different
students that i've met
over the years and that also kind of
keeps me like
in that mind frame because i worked at
schools where kids were
taking a bus to get to school and it
wasn't like the regular bus they're
actually taking like the city bus
they're coming 40 and 50 minutes you
know
just to get to school then take another
how can i make computer science
equitable for this child how can i make
it equitable for this person how can i
make it evil for
the individuals in the rural areas how
can i make it equitable for the
individuals that are at schools that
really want to learn computer science
but
unfortunately their school doesn't have
all the resources so what am i
going to do to make sure that those kids
still have a fair chance at pursuing
just computer science education as a
whole
so how did that lead to founding the
exposure stem
again just tying back to the lack of
african-american males in like the
school system and then like computer
science
so i knew that i was only one person and
then of course
being in the school setting you all know
that there are different like
i guess like duels and don'ts like rules
and regulations as far as like
curriculum and how things need to be
taught and
things that you have to get done in the
school year so like starting that was
like my way
of kind of like removing that boundary
and trying to reach
as many students as i possibly could if
you were to give like
the elevator pitch what is exposure stem
so it's a stem-based non-profit and it's
just to
equip empower and expose underserved
students to pursue
fields of stem and through your
experiences like
working through exposure stem how's that
kind of informed your own
understandings of cs education i feel
like it's helped me
understand more on like the needs
and like the needs of the students and
also like
the needs of like parents because a lot
of parents know that computer science is
here
but they don't know like how do i get my
kid connected not only you have to get
the kid connected
how can you also support the parent in
order to get the kid connected because
again like parents
know that like computer science and
engineering is here but like we're not
taking out the time to say hey
this is what it is these are the
different languages these are the
different resources that we have
these are the different scholarship
opportunities it helps because
of course even though there are teachers
you also
want to get that parent buying because
that parent buy-in is you know crucial
as well too to make sure that you're
getting those desired results that you
want to achieve yeah and having
that ability to speak to somebody who
can like guide in some way
like that was something that i had seen
missing for a lot of students like hey
if you really want to be able to do
a b or c you need to take a look at the
steps x y and z in order to get there
and just having somebody who's been
there done that it's very beneficial
so i'm curious with your new position as
a cs state supervisor for south carolina
like how do you hope to impact students
and teachers in south carolina
so i'm actually working on that now i
know one big piece
is professional development in regards
to the teachers
making sure that they feel supported in
computer science
so like my slogan is actually a css key
and then of course we have the cs for sc
but like the key
actually stands for like kindle equity
in you like when you think of like
kindle my goal is to of course it's not
like the amazon can look like i know
when people hear that word that's the
first thing that
comes up but just like kindling like
that spark
that you will understand like what
computer science is and like how
computer science can make your life
easier
so my goal is to try to kindle that
spark earlier
so of course hey kindergarten you know
all the way up making sure that
everybody is explosive that kindling
piece
and then the e stands for like equity we
all know about
you know just making sure that we're
making curriculum and decisions that are
equitable for all
and then the you is that's just my way
of saying like
even though i'm the state supervisor
this is getting everyone across the
finish line
getting computer science out there this
is not just a dominic
initiative it's going to take all of us
so the parents the teachers the students
the custodians the billboards our
community partners
the government it's going to take all of
us if we really want
to produce these numbers here in south
carolina so it's not just the
oh yeah hey this is no this is not my
it's all of us
yeah so i recently read a k-por csta
joint report on like the status of
cs teachers across the nation and so one
of the interesting stats i forget what
it was but it was
like maybe 40ish percent of teachers
didn't believe that
we needed to talk about equity in cs
classes
so i'm happy to hear that it's a large
part of the three pieces that you're
talking about
i'm wondering what recommendations could
you give to cs educators
around equity and inclusion if they
haven't checked out anything that the k4
center is doing
i read a lot of their findings um their
very informative and then also
if you aren't involved with csta make
sure you get involved
with csta csta they are amazing i'm not
saying that just because i'm an equity
fellow for them but
they have so many different pdes
probably every two weeks it seems like
because they're always putting on
different
events to help you understand the
purpose
of equity whether you feel like you're
an equity champion or don't know
anything about equity they have
different workshops to help you
navigate that journey and then even if
you just want curriculum help or
you know just how to be a better
computer science teacher and of course
you also get the chance to
interact and network with other cs
teachers which is
so beneficial because like i said i was
a former computer science classroom so
unfortunately there are a lot of pd
sessions that happen throughout the
school year that
cs teachers are just cte teachers in
general have to go to
and you're like why am i in here like
this doesn't pertain to
anything relevant to my classroom so
yeah csta
they do a very good job of like you're
able to meet those teachers then you're
like oh i may only be the only
cs teacher in my school or my network
but i'm not alone because this is the
same feature that somebody in california
is having
same thing somebody in oakland is having
so it's not just me thinking you know
i'm crazy or i'm just on the islands
other teachers that are going through
what you're going through or have
already went through and hey you don't
have to go through it by yourself these
are different resources i use to get
over it and
make it work so yeah and so you
mentioned the equity in action
fellows so at the summit i believe you
were
if i remember correctly engaging in an
interview with kamau bob
and so you're a big part of the summit
itself so people haven't been to it i
highly recommend it it was really good
but
i'm curious how did you get involved
with the summit being a fellow so if
teachers are like okay that sounds great
but
what do i need to do in order to
actually become an equity fellow yeah
so at the end i'm sure i'll have like my
linkedin profile and twitter handles and
all that
but then i'll just check out the csta
equity
website i believe the applications will
be going out
in june i encourage everyone to apply to
be honest for me
i really didn't know what to expect when
you're talking about like your long
professional development for like cs
i didn't know what to expect but what i
can tell you it's been like
life-changing just to be around so many
like-minded individuals when we do meet
it doesn't even feel like that we're
meeting anymore it's more just like
a family thing so like even when i was
applying for the job here
i was like well i don't know if i should
apply that like oh no you're going to
apply
give me the call like one of my good
friends in there lily's just like if you
need help
i will help you through the application
then when i made the final round
i actually called some of the equity
fellows was like hey this is what
they're asking me to do
who you know has experience was like oh
yeah i can help you with this and then
for this part you can get help from this
person this part
so it's been very beneficial then even
with my transition or some of them i
talked to all the time hey
how's the boot do you need anything let
me know how i can support i know you
still have
i know you're adjusting to your new job
but you also have your equity fellow
commitments if there's anything i can
help you you
know to speed up that process let me
know so there's they have been like i
said a tremendous
support so again i would encourage
anyone to apply for life again
for me i was hesitant to apply just
because i really didn't know what i'm
getting myself
into but i am very grateful that i did
that's awesome so if you're to look
ahead like if we were to fast forward
like five years from now
and you're to think of like just a
typical computer science class in south
carolina
if somebody will walk into that class
like and just observe what was going on
what do you hope that people would see
hear or experience yeah so i would hope
that
number one like it's very like
student-driven learning so like students
are doing
the heavy lifting and then of course
collaboration
also i would love to see like curriculum
that is like
made for the students so when you're
walking in if you are
from like south carolina or even if
you're not from south carolina you'll be
like you would be able to see different
things
that represent like south carolina or
represent like the different things like
that the kids like so if you go hey what
are you working on this could be i
should be able to tell you
hey my name is john and this is my
mobile app
my mobile app tracks the amount of times
my favorite soccer player you know has
hit
or missed a goal something like that and
it's like i picked this because
i love soccer or you go somebody else
well i made a baking app because you
know i love to bake or somebody hey this
is my app because
i know the importance of computer
science and i want to
go to cosmetology school i want to be a
barber so my app is centered around
me going to barber school or something
like that so that's
my goal for it this is a generalization
but most of the teachers that i've seen
who are kind of resistant to that
approach tend to be
older teachers and they've gone through
more traditional like everybody's doing
the same thing going at the same pace
at the same time but the way that you
described it really resonates with my
own
practices in the classroom what we do
with boot up and our professional
development
what i recommend for any educators make
it interest driven make it so that is
basically one to one in terms of if
there's 30 kids in the class they could
be working on 30 different projects but
how do you
help teachers see the benefit or move
away from something they may have
done for many years or decades so
i always tie it back to like meeting the
teacher like where they are
i know sometimes like we throw things at
them
and then of course if you're an ulti
sometimes that does make you kind of
like fearful of what's to come
but like kind of do it in like
increments of baby steps so for example
if your school already knows that like
eventually this is going to be like
their next computer science teacher so
i'm just saying the next year hey we're
going to be the new computer science
teacher and they have to
completely learn it i started throwing
like many lessons in there so hey
once a month i would love to see you
incorporate computer science
into what you're already teaching and
then that once a month
may turn into once every two weeks and
that once every two weeks may turn into
you know
mini lessons or a mini unit and then
just build your way up to instead of
just throwing some of those teachers
that aren't comfortable with computer
science they're like you want me to do
what like
i don't even know how to code myself or
i don't understand computer science
myself and now you want me to be like
the subject matter
expert on it like i said just meeting
the teachers where they are yeah it
seems like a very reasonable
and scaffolded approach for like
developing that ability to like
facilitate
multiple projects simultaneously and i
got that really from my mom because like
she doesn't really like computers that
much so like when i used to have like
sure how to do things on the computer
i grew up with technology so it's
nothing for me to turn on the computer
and you know go here here here or here
so he was like okay mom i understand i
am moving fast so let me slow it down
for you
first day you know we're just gonna
practice on this and then you know you
familiarize yourself
are you comfortable with this all right
now you're comfortable going on the
internet
let me show you how to check your email
once you figure out how to check your
email okay this is how you're gonna
respond
this is what cc stands for this is what
bcc stands for
so just like different things like that
but over time you know now she's expert
at so what about for developing your own
expertise like how do you
practice or iterate on your own
abilities either as an educator
or in computer science three so i used
to have my students do it all the time
i'm always hitting like typing in like
computer science
or like computer science education or
like computer science k-12
and then just hit like the news tab
that's the one way
i like to stay impressed on things that
are happening and then of course
like connecting with individuals on
linkedin linkedin has been very helpful
figure out like okay these are like the
who's who in like a precise education
these are people you need to follow
they're always posting like different
things
and of course being a part of like
different computer science
organizations like csta where you're
doing things at your local level or a
national level
and of course like seeking out
professional development because of
course sometimes depending on what
school you're in your school's not going
to give you
that professional development that you
really need so sometimes you actually do
have to
take it out so that if that's you
joining these different organizations or
even it can be as simple as you
joining facebook groups that i wish i
would have known about i think it's the
cs educators on facebook
that may not be right but there's a
computer science facebook group
and they are always posting a ton of
resources and i was like where was this
when i was in my first year of teaching
design because i was and i was like uh
i was doing the best i could but then i
was like man if i would have known you
know
that there was a facebook group of all
the president educators there were a lot
of people in there going through the
same things i went through or
other people that have already went
through it and i'm trying to think of
like the scope and sequence and like the
computer science trajectory from the
high school or
somebody else has already done those
like utilizing those different resources
and again
i was just out there like oh okay well
so i've had the privilege of having some
excellent mentors throughout my life in
a variety of different
areas and one of the things that has
been really beneficial about that kind
of relationship
is they're able to see areas that are
opportunities for growth that i might
not
be able to see when reflecting on my own
or looking in the mirror
so one of the hard things about being a
cs educator though is you might be the
only person in your school or in your
district who really knows much
about the field and knows anything in
that area so you can't really find that
mentor who might be like
in the room next door who can be like
hey i think you could really work on a b
or c
and like here are some resources to help
with that so how do you
kind of find your own growth
opportunities or trajectories to go down
with your own
personal professional development so i
feel like i'm
very like in tune with myself i have
like sticky notes
i write sticky notes all the time and
then i also always write in like my
notebook so
i'm firmly always having like goals and
plans so
of course i have like from long term
like three year goals five year goals
so that's kind of like how i like assess
things but like even when i was in the
classroom
at the end of the lesson like as a
teacher you pretty much know like
what you did well and like where you
kind of like struggled at
so then like you're just taking notes on
that hey i need
help with leasing the task or i need
help you know
getting them across this business i need
help addressing
i felt like you know i talked about a
conditional statement as well
but maybe i didn't and then when you see
the next ticket data and it shows that
you didn't
okay so then when you are like in these
different facebook groups or you do go
with your mentors
hey i need help with this and then of
course you know man you got the power of
zoom you know
ways to record your lessons and let
somebody else you know listen to it and
then be like okay yeah
this is what i did these are the
different tips that i can share with you
on how this is how i release my students
to test this how i check for
misconceptions and stuff like that
yeah that makes sense so education is
one of the fields that has a really high
burnout rate
and i'm curious how you have been able
to kind of like
prevent that burnout and work through
the pressures and demands of working in
the field of education
so i enjoy running i'm a part of black
men run there was a little group
that i used to run with weekly again i
just moved here to south carolina so
i'll be doing that shortly i also enjoy
music but then
for me what also helps prevent like
burnout i always
like think about my student like i said
i have like pictures of my students on
the desk
that's i guess always thinking about
like my why like why i signed up
for this like in the first place i know
there's going to be like
challenging times and you know like hard
trials and tribulations but i always
think about the student that you know
looked up to me as brother
uncle you know dad whatever it was like
what would they want me to do in this
situation think about the student that
was
busting 30 or 40 miles just to have a
seat in my classroom
just so they can you know make a better
opportunity for themselves and their
family
i always try to like travel it back to
my why
and then that kind of like keeps me
grounded
and then another thing that kind of like
motivates me is like my grandmother
she always talked about like the
importance of education
and then that like she unfortunately had
to stop in like middle school
that's always like my growing piece to
like keep going and remember that like
the people before me like didn't get a
chance to
keep going because they had to so like
let me make sure that i'm creating
practices and policies to make sure
that from kindergarten through 12th
grade if this is what you want to do if
this computer science
is you know your path or whatever your
path is in this realm
is make sure that i'm creating spaces
and opportunities for you to
succeed and get across the finish line
yeah lots of snaps for that answer
thank you i really appreciate that no
problem so
knowing that you're also working on your
doctorate and
research informs your own practices what
are some gaps in research that you
really wish that
there was more research on to kind of
inform your own understandings or your
own practices
so i think one of the biggest things
like when you're just thinking about
i love more research which i'm sure
it'll come like eventually but then when
you think about like african-american
male
in like stem and like how that like
piece of like exposure
helps students like long term so maybe
there's a role model like
what role does like african-american men
in like k-12 education play to
students for going to post-secondary
yeah it'd be also interesting to explore
that
within the different groups in k-12 so
like
primary versus secondary schools and i
say that because like when i was
teaching
in my first district at several of the
schools that i was teaching at i was the
only
male presenting individual who was a
teacher at the school
and everybody else was not granted i'm
non-binary but like
either way students knew me as like mr
o'leary like this
they typically refer to me as but then
when you go into like high school it
tends to be
more men who are in those situations
so be interesting to see like how that
compares in terms of the exposure and
representation
what is something that you're currently
working on that you could use some help
with so if there is somebody who is
listening to this they could potentially
provide a solution to something that
you would like some assistance with what
would that thing be
probably the biggest thing right now is
so pretty soon
i'll actually be conducting like
listening towards to figure out like
what's been going well in the state of
what hasn't been going well in the state
as far as like community partners are
concerned like what do you think
of like k-12 computer science in south
carolina looks like
even if you're on the outside so you may
not even be a
partner in the state yet but you can
always come aboard
that's probably like the biggest thing
as i'm developing like policy so i know
one of my
jobs is also to create a state plan in
regards to like what
k12 cs looks like so giving me their
feedback on different things that
are maybe going on in industry or going
on you know in different states which is
that's probably the biggest thing right
now like i said just a big fight
listening to herself
i'm all ears for i guess avenues or
perspectives because i'm trying to bring
everybody
the table again the model with cs is key
so
the kindling piece the equity piece and
the you piece
so tying all that together to really
make it this all one cohesive unit
at the end when you think about like in
the
upcoming years like when you see like
the different things that like south
carolina has done it's not going to be
like i've done that
no we've done that it took all of us
we've done that
yeah i like that and if anyone who's
listening to this at the end we'll make
sure that
dominic shares where to be able to
connect with him so what questions do
you have for myself for for the field at
large
yeah where do you feel are the gaps in
computer science education currently
there are many from my perspective so
we are starting to fill some of the gaps
like when
i first was introduced into computer
science it was in high school and so it
was like
an ap course and it was the only course
that was offered it was the first time
they offered it
my junior year before that i didn't have
any opportunity to do that so one of the
nice things is over the last like decade
or so
it's become more common in the
elementary and middle school space to
have cs in there however one of the gaps
that i'm seeing is
cs is presented as a future job
opportunity
and that's the majority of the discourse
out there which is great
because there are many jobs but not
everyone wants to go in to see us for a
job
so like you could engage in cs for fun
like making your own apps or
tinkering with your own hardware and
software at home to be able to do
whatever you want or like myself i
proposed to my wife by
modding the game minecraft so i changed
the code and made it so that she could
go on an adventure
and craft a circle of hearts it created
a box ring and then i actually proposed
them per person
that was for fun for leisure et cetera
and i think that is a gap that is often
not discussed because money isn't
necessarily tied to it
so if we really do think that cs is for
all but not everyone is going to get a
degree in cs or pursue a career in cs
then we need to talk about okay well how
can you use computer science outside of
just getting a job again nothing wrong
with getting a job in cs i think it's
amazing
wonderful opportunities but that to me
is like one of those big
gaps that i don't think we're talking
about enough
but then there are also many other gaps
in terms of like representation
there's gaps in terms of like what kinds
of courses are offered and where
and when and like that has a huge impact
on students but like
that was just kind of my my bigger
discourse response that's right no that
makes complete sense
if i were to flip the question on to
yourself how would you respond to it
well yeah i definitely agree with a lot
that you said
like some of the biggest gaps it's like
the access to computer science education
of course the representation piece as
well those are
the bigger things and then just another
big piece
that's like missing in it is also it's
like
everyone won't major in computer science
for a job so just figuring out like if
we are really
true to like cs for all like what does
computer science for
all like actually look like because we
all know that
all means like everyone is not going to
take pick up computer science as
a major which is fine but if it's all
like figuring out
the all means how does that computer
science connect to you and i think we
need to do a better job basically
how it impacts you to kind of like
elaborate on the discussion on
representation
how do we expand upon the
current small amount of representation
that is evident within the field
and also take into account the different
intersectionalities with it
so like there's many more combinations
of various identities that are often not
discussed and we tend to focus on like
broad categories in isolation rather
than talking about
the intersections of those categories so
for example i'm a white individual so
that is one broad category but i'm also
a non-binary individual and so that is a
marginalized category
or underrepresented and that
intersection of the two is something
that
could be explored more and discussed but
it's often
separate so i'm either identified as
white or i'm identified as non-binary
not necessarily the combination of the
two and those are just two of many
things that make up the multiplicity
that is myself so like i'm curious
how do we kind of talk about and expand
representation
while taking into account that that
complexity yeah so
i think it all goes back to like the
exposure piece and then like when people
do have like
a seat at the table like doing
the best that they can to i guess like
make sure others will end up you know
like having to see at the table so
also when you think about like the
different forms and stuff
we all know we are different but if you
don't have anyone
that you're willing to give a chance to
have us at the table then you won't know
what
is behind you so it all goes back to i'm
telling you earlier like i'm as strong
as my weakest link of course there's
going to be other african-american
men behind me that want to pursue
computer science but if they've never
seen one if they've never heard one
they won't know so like you're not
giving a white
non-binary the space then others
won't know like you exist and like
there's someone else out there
that is them so yeah that makes sense
so where might people go to connect with
you and the organizations that you work
with
yeah so linkedin i'm pretty active on
linkedin
dominic sanders and then my twitter
is one underscore d
underscore sanders i'm not as active as
i used to be on twitter but just bear
with me because i'm still in my first 30
days of my new job
like after i get that you know situated
in
my scheduling i'll be a lot more active
and then
from those two places you'll be able to
see like the different things that
are like happening within like south
carolina
like on the national scale of course i
always promote like different things
from like cstx i'm equity fellow
you'll be able to see like what's really
happening
in the cs world and then we can connect
from there
and with that that concludes this week's
episode of the cska podcast
if you haven't been to my website yet
make sure you check out jrdelirie.com i
guarantee you there's
a lot of resources that you will find
useful for the cs classes that you are
working with
including links to the free curriculum
that i create for boot up professional
development which you can find at boot
up pd.org
stay tuned next week for another
unpacking scholarship episode and two
weeks for now for another interview
i hope you're all staying safe and are
having a wonderful week

Guest Bio

Dominick Sanders is currently the Computer Science Supervisor for the state of South Carolina Education Department. In this role, he is responsible for k-12 computer science education programs and professional development across the state. As a former computer science teacher and a national leader, he brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to share with the education sector. As a teacher one his proudest moments as a teacher was during the 2019-2020 school year. For the Advanced Placement Computer Science exam, he helped his school secure a 70.8% pass rate. More scholars passed the exam and had an overall higher average score than the state of Tennessee. Additionally, female, black and latinx scholars had a higher passing rate than the state and global average.

His true passion is helping others and giving back by inspiring and encouraging as many underserved students as he possibly can. One of his favorite quotes is “You can be what you can’t see. ”Keeping that quote in mind, in 2019 he founded Xposure STEM. Xposure STEM is a nonprofit organization designed to empower, expose, and equip underserved boys and girls to become leading contributors to the world of Science, Technology, Engineering and Math.

Dominick is currently a doctoral student at Vanderbilt University studying educational leadership and public policy. He holds a Master’s degree from Relay Graduate School for Education and a B.S. in Computer Science from Jackson State University.

He is also currently a Computer Science Teachers Association (CSTA) Equity Fellow. In his free time, he enjoys cycling, running with the Black Men Run group and cooking for family and friends.

Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode

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See how I proposed to my wife through a Minecraft mod I created
Connect with Dominick
- Dominick’s LinkedIn profile
- Dominick’s Twitter
Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter