Healthy Boundaries with Siobahn Grady

In this interview with Siobahn Grady, we discuss the importance of self care and healthy boundaries, the impact of education, misconceptions and problematic assumptions people make with HBCUs, misconceptions and misunderstandings of being a professor in CS, lessons learned using machine learning to identify authorship of tweets, exploring the implications of social media and technology with students, the intersections of arts and CS, improving equity and inclusion in computing through action, and much more.

Welcome back to another episode of the
CSK8 podcast my name is jared o'leary
each week of this podcast alternates
between a solo episode where it unpacks
some scholarship and its implications in
the k12 and k8 space
and an interview with a guest this
week's particular episode is an
interview with siobhan grady
in this episode we discuss the
importance of self-care and healthy
boundaries
the impact of education misconceptions
and problematic assumptions people make
about hbcus
misconceptions and misunderstandings of
being a professor in cs in cs education
lessons learned using machine learning
to identify authorship of tweets
exploring the implications of social
media and technology with students
the intersections of arts and cs
improving equity and inclusion in
computing through action
and so much more we do mention several
other resources and podcasts and
websites
in this particular episode so make sure
you check out the show notes which you
can find by clicking the link in your
description or simply going to
jarrodoleary.com
with that being said i hope you enjoyed
this interview with siobhan which will
now begin with an introduction
my name is siobhan grady i'm an
assistant professor at north carolina
central university in the school of
library and information and sciences
i am a computer scientist i happen to
graduate from three hbcus
otherwise known as historically black
colleges or universities
i was the first woman to get a phd in
computer science from north carolina a t
state university very proud of that i
also
graduated from the department that i now
work in
got my master's in information science
and i got my bachelor of science
in computer science from winston-salem
state university so
i did all the schooling all the things
and i'm excited to be
a part of department that i graduated
from so that means a lot to me
outside of that i'm a researcher
in artificial intelligence so i do work
with machine learning
i look to see if i can identify
authorship of a tweet
to hopefully help us and we've seen that
given these times
help us identify malicious sources that
might be propagating through the
social media web i also do machine
learning apply
to autonomous vehicles additionally i'm
now doing work
in stem identity so i'm doing outreach
with
middle school girls to help them develop
a stem identity and get some confidence
and hopefully want to pursue stem in the
future so
those are a few things about me and the
work that i do
oh i forgot one thing key thing i'm also
a triple a s which is the american
association for the advancement of
science
if then ambassador and so i am now a
national role model for stem
very proud of that because hopefully
this year
even if things get better they will be
unveiling the largest exhibit of
women's statues in the u.s so that's
something that i'm proud of there's a
statue that'll be there in my likeness
and i do a lot of outreach efforts i've
been doing it for years
before the ambassadorship i'll do it
even beyond this ambassadorship i love
helping
people especially get into stem or
computer science
and just making it more tangible
sometimes people need to see someone
that looks like them
and sometimes you're even touching lives
of people that don't look like you
because we never know who we're reaching
so that's a little bit about me and my
passions and
what i do and all the things that i love
i have so many questions about the
statue that sounds
fascinating like i'm just curious like
are they gonna go in and do like a scan
that goes all around you matrix style or
like just take pictures or
yes in november of 2019 we so when i say
we the ambassadors they picked i think
it's 125 of us
women in stem they flew us to dallas
texas
first time in dallas that's a beautiful
place and they did a 3d scan of each one
of us and the statues you can even see
what they look like now
on a website if then collection.org
you can go there and see all the
statutes of the 125 scientists
it's an electronic press kit so
basically you can go there see
videos of me photos and also see the
statue
and also see a cv and that's for each
one of the scientists and
the reason why they did that is because
normally when someone googles
science or scientists it was always a
man
that popped up and so triple a s and if
then they wanted to change that
narrative so that when
you type in a computer scientist maybe
someone like me might pop
up or someone else other than just a man
and so
nothing wrong with men but we want
things to be equitable and for people to
see
not only a man a woman but maybe see a
black woman or a latina
woman or man we want to change and make
things more inclusive so that people can
truly
believe and see that it's feasible
that's great can you tell me the story
of
how you became the first woman to get a
phd in computer science from university
yeah so that's a great question so the
phd program was fairly new
but i was not the first woman or female
to be in the program
but i was the first one to finish so how
did that happen
it happened with lots of determination
with being steadfast
and you know staying the course when i
went back to get my phd i had actually
quit my job i was already in my career
so before
phd i was actually a database developer
very happy with my job
but i realized a long time ago that i
wanted to get my phd i love
technology but i also love helping
people and to me a professorship is the
best way to get the best of both worlds
and so when i went back my only goal
because i was an older student was to
graduate
that was it i'm like i've quit my
full-time job i'm now on this stipend
so my lifestyle had to change because i
was not a working professional
stipend didn't necessarily cover
everything that i may have been used to
as a working professional
and that actually motivated me to finish
to get back to when i'm saying the real
world get back to society
and you know making a living so i think
by me being a
older student and when i say older just
early 30s
that just spurred me to keep hitting the
pavement and i think that
tenacity that steadfastness is what
helped me
get to the finish line because i was
already organized
goal-oriented and i knew how to advocate
for myself
and i can attribute that to being a
working professional
having some years of experience and that
got me to the finish line
it wasn't until the day that i did my
final defense
that i realized the magnitude of what it
meant to be the first woman to
graduate from the program and i must say
that north carolina ant
showed me so much love and i didn't know
how many people i inspired
because my goal was to only finish
because so many people
don't finish phd i didn't want that to
happen so i just kept pushing myself and
once i graduated i got to meet so many
people
that i've inspired and i mentor a lot of
people who are pursuing phd
and help them navigate through because
again everybody
when they start their phd program they
may be at a different point in their
life and for me i was you know like i
said i quit my job and i had just left
the workforce so my mindset may be
different than someone who just went
straight through school
yeah there's so many pressures
internally externally
monetarily et cetera going through the
phd like one year on my tax return i
made a total of four thousand dollars
while i was like working on my phd you
can't survive off four thousand dollars
in phoenix so there's so many things
like pushing you to try and finish it
or drop out it's so difficult one of the
videos on your website
you had mentioned that if you were to
speak to your younger self
you would tell her that she is powerful
and that she needs to burn brighter when
other people are trying to diminish
her light so i'm curious whether it be
through your
process going through the phd or just
even just
as a general recommendation what would
you recommend for other
cs professionals or educators who
run into these obstacles that might
diminish their light or extinguish their
light
i think something that's key is some
people call it finding their tribe and
even a more general term is support
system
one thing that really has helped me not
only navigate phd but life is my support
system and that
encompasses definitely family my parents
play an
integral role in who i am they keep me
grounded
also some friends and also mentors
if you can find a mentor someone that
can help guide you
that's helpful too because then you can
bounce things off
the key is not taking ownership of
things that don't belong to you
you have to recognize when someone is
telling you something
from a place of wisdom and trying to
help you
and then you need to realize when
someone's coming from a place of trying
to hurt you
and whatever it may be if it's someone
trying to hurt you
it's like it goes in one ear and out the
other you don't even take it
you don't own it because sometimes what
that will do is start replaning your
mind
over and over again and it doesn't
belong to you go to your support system
talk to them about it to get perspective
and if
other people are reassuring you that
this not you is that other person
believe them
and move forward drop it and move
forward i must say people do say things
that's for everyone people say things
but you have to
again have a support system people who
can help keep you grounded help keep you
focused on the journey because if you're
an educator
we're supposed to be helping and
mentoring inspiring others
and it's hard to do that when we're not
in the mental space to do that so
we just have to keep one another lifted
and with that being said
also be kind to your peers and
colleagues don't you be the one that's
toxic and delivering words that are
unkind
but i think having that support system
or tribe of people who can
help keep you grounded and who you can
bounce ideas off of
is essential to remembering who you are
and i think all of us have a wonderful
light burning inside of us
that the world should see yeah and
you're part about
educators mentoring others so we need to
take care of ourselves that's one of the
reasons why i asked the question of
every guest of like how do you prevent
burnout and whatnot because
it's so important that we help ourselves
in order to be able to help other people
yeah that's a great question if 2020
taught me
anything it was how to have healthy
boundaries and
boundaries are not only for personal
they are professional
too and i know that's hard for some
people given whatever
job they may have but it is important
that you let people know
when they are overstepping a boundary
for instance if someone's asking you to
meet at a time that you already have
booked for something else then you just
tell them no
you don't double book yourself i think a
lot of times we're trying to
please other people and in the end we're
hurting ourselves so
i would say implement boundaries
practice self-care
i didn't realize up until last year that
many people don't even
do self-care self-care is loving
yourself
loving yourself might mean an hour in
the morning each day before you get
started where you just meditate
or reflect or whatever that is your time
or in the evening or going walking or
taking a bath lighting candles
whatever it takes that is a part of
self-care
and i think that in order to have more
balance we have to realize when we're
actually just doing too much
and that would also require looking at a
planner
if all of the hours in the day are
booked up with work
you're not doing it right we're not
robots
we are meant to get sleep and that's
another thing we don't get the proper
rest we're not at our best either
when we're not hydrated getting a proper
rest it starts coming out in other areas
so i would just say for me one thing
that i do is i implement boundaries
i practice self-care loving myself that
could be me going on a daily walk or
like i said an hour
in the morning or evening just with
myself
just unwinding reflecting and that's
what has helped me tremendously
yeah that really resonates the first
therapist that i saw
during my undergrad recommended that i
do time blocking so
just go through and like here's minute
by minute what i'm gonna do throughout
the day
and the first time i did that i realized
oh i start my day at six a.m like
teaching drumline and then
my final class ends at nine o'clock at
night and i have a ten minute break at
one point
in the day where i'm not traveling
between classes or school or whatever
that's not healthy so learned how to
like
i need to schedule in time off on my
calendar or it's not going to happen
at least with my personality so
definitely agree with that
it's helpful when you start looking at
it on paper like i said in the planner
that's when you realize
wow i'm doing this wrong and i think
we've all been guilty of that
for sure so i'm curious working in cs
education what was something that you
first believe but you no longer believe
now
i guess i wasn't sure about what type of
impact that i could make or
how important it is sometimes at least
in
computer science sometimes some
researchers
don't view certain areas as technical as
others
and i think that cs education
is so important because that is the
beginning that is people
developing and helping people get into
this field so i would say that's even
more technical
and more important than anything because
if we're not developing
great cs students what does the rest of
it look like
so i think that was a misconception
based on some
things i had heard and then just seeing
the impacts of working in cs education
also
being a professor doing outreach how
powerful it is to share
the knowledge that i have in computer
science with others and
watch them grow and develop those skills
i would say that was my biggest
misconception that i know now
wasn't true yeah it's interesting how
there's also that disconnect between
like the different levels of
education like there's a disconnect
between k-12 and higher education but
then there's also a disconnect between
like the 100 level courses and the
graduate level courses
in terms of like perceived priority or
importance or whatever
especially with k-12 you know that is so
important because
they're getting a head start to be in
this field whereas
i believe when i was in school you know
all the opportunities that are now
available
they weren't there for k through 12 like
they are now i think that's exciting
i'm glad that things are changing and
evolving and people are finding ways to
teach things in a way that work for
all students as we know now people learn
in different ways
so i'm in agreement what about some
misconceptions or problematic
assumptions that people make
about hbcus that it's a second class
education like i'll give an example i
heard some things like okay so you went
to
an hbc you for undergrad but now you
need to go to
pwi you don't need to do that because
you know nobody's going to respect that
or people telling young people don't go
to hbcu there you know
that degree doesn't mean anything it
doesn't hold any weight those kinds of
things
are misconceptions specifically a lot of
times
people think that everybody at the hbcu
is black
and i think that's the biggest
misconception
in my department right now i'm the only
black tenure track faculty so
you know i think people have these
notions about who works there
what the student body looks like what
type of education
is being delivered and i think that
people should
open their eyes and open their hearts to
again
being more inclusive being open and just
because something is different doesn't
mean that it's second rate
or it's not as good i just think we just
know more about
majority schools than we know about
minority schools yeah and just in case
people aren't familiar with it pwi is
primarily a white institution
just an fyi if anyone's listening and
unsure what about
are there things that you wish more
people understood with hbcus
it's very much different some people may
have heard about these things and
they're at majority institutions too
some have homecomings but it's a
cultural thing
you know homecoming is essentially a
reunion
basically except it's not necessarily
affiliated with a specific class reunion
it's almost a reunion to come back and
celebrate your university
together with all the people that were
there when you were there
and most hbcus and i say most because
north carolina and t
state university is the largest hbcu in
the nation i think they have
little bit more difficult at a
t but for winston-salem state university
where i got my undergraduate degree
there were not a lot of students i think
that it may have been 4 000 students
when i was there maybe have been less
than that but
with it being small like that you kind
of get to know everyone i would say
culturally one difference at hbcus is
sometimes it can feel almost like a
family
because things are smaller in size your
professors can really get to know you
you're not a number for some people like
myself
it can feel very welcoming you know that
people care about you they know you by
name
and that's not to say that that's not a
majority institutions but that is just
one specific thing about
hbcus that i think a lot of people would
be surprised about
if they stepped on a campus and took a
class the type of education
how much their professor would be
interested in who they are
as a person i think they'd be surprised
yeah some of my favorite classes were
the ones that only had like five people
in it in total
it just felt so much more intimate
one-on-one with somebody who's an expert
in their area
as opposed to the classes where there's
like 50 100 plus students
and then you are that number yeah it's
difficult because sometimes you want to
spend time with your professor because
they are the subject matter expert you
want to spend that time with them and
get all that you can from them but it is
hard to do when it's
larger classes it really is so speaking
of being a professor so one of your
if then videos was talking about how you
like to expand
students notions of like what does it
mean to be a professor of cs like what
can you actually do
in that so i'm wondering like what are
some of the misconceptions or
misunderstandings
about being a professor in ces that you
often dispel
i think that they think that all
professors do is teach and historically
a lot of hbcus have been teaching
institutions
however many universities or hbcus are
moving towards research institutions
and north carolina central is no
different in that regard and so i think
when they hear about
what a phd is the research that i do
they are typically fascinated so i love
to
show them that yes i do teach but i also
do research
and also do service and service
beyond committees for them i share with
them the outreach that i do
and they love it a lot of students are
not exposed to
different organizations or how they can
help younger people
like teens and elementary school
students and i think just showing them
this different world and space that a
professor
is very helpful and i've started a
research lab
and i am so excited because i have
several grants
i fund some students but i have students
volunteer just to get the experience
and i guess it's word of mouth now at
this point so i'm doing something right
so that feels really good to know that
students want to
learn more about not only what a
professor does
but the person behind that as well i'm
curious with your research
what are some of the things that you
have learned through your research on
machine learning to kind of
identify some of the authorship of like
tweets and whatnot because this is
a very relevant and timely topic you
know
funny enough when i did my dissertation
work the
thought behind it was i was inspired by
the 2016
presidential election you know because
there was a lot of terms being thrown
around that's fake news alternative
facts and so
i was like wow i was like i really want
to
better understand better understand some
of this so
what i've done is i've taken a look at
different groups
and when i say groups i mean
professional groups whether it be
authors musicians politicians i've taken
created a data set and i've used machine
learning to
see out of that grouping who can i
determine more easily than another
and also what types of features are they
giving me that helps me identify who
they are
and so it was very interesting some of
the results
one that i thought was interesting but
it makes sense with musicians and
politicians and authors and television
hosts all these
different groups i had in my data set i
was initially thinking that
politicians would be the most easily
able to be determined
but i found out not so much and it makes
sense because they're
constantly changing their views
over time so things like that whereas
musicians
are more easily able to be determined or
detected because if you think about it
musicians also have a very unique
cadence or style of music and different
things like that
and so i just found it fascinating i'm
working on another project right now
i can't share anything just yet with
what happened not so long ago with
a certain person being suspended i'm
doing some other research because i like
to know some of the impacts
outside of the artificial intelligence
and machine learning i like to better
understand some of the impacts
that social media is having in general
on society
because as we see there are rules in
terms of service that people are
supposed to follow
but we see what happens when people are
not policed
or what happens over time if they aren't
taken care of things can get out of hand
so
this is all fascinating and i love that
we can use
ai to help us with that predictive
analysis and better understanding things
so
it's quite fascinating i love it like i
said it was all inspired by the 2016
presidential election ironically enough
so my
dissertation i used a corpus linguistics
approach
called corpus assisted discourse
analysis i looked at 11 million words of
data try to find patterns and then
better understand those patterns of
discourse in it
it would be fascinating speaking of the
individual who was suspended
recently we're recording this in january
of 2021 by the way if you were to like
do an analysis of how
that individual's tweets have changed
over time in terms of like
the things that they have said just kind
of thinking out loud but
that's just me being a nerd right now so
no i like that and listen i can
collaborate on that too i'm serious i
love this kind of stuff it's important
and it's going to tell us a lot yeah
because i don't think the story has
yet finished unfortunately yeah what i'm
trying to say is there are some
implications
of that that it's going to have to be
dealt with is what i'm trying to say
yeah no it's important i'm curious how
has
your own research like looking at this
specific
slice of social media engagement kind of
changed how you see or interact with the
world through social media like
do you disavow all social media now or
do you like go all into it or like how
has it
impacted that so i'm being honest so
part of me is very fearful
because what i don't believe you know
most people realize is
the only reason why people or technology
is able to do
what it does is because we're freely
giving data
constantly they don't have to pay for it
we're signing up
we're posting constantly giving free
data
for people to run an analysis on they
even had a documentary last year in 2020
i can't think of the name of it on
netflix where they talked about social
media and how
it was designed for manipulation oh was
it social dilemma
yeah the social dilemma that was it so
on the one hand
i love social media and i do use it by
the way so i am fearful
but at the same time through my
ambassadorship
i'm realizing as fearful as i might be
because i know some other things at the
same time it's still very important to
tell my story
because this is the way that we
communicate now
and when i say we young people people my
age
you know more seasoned people it is the
way we communicate so i think what i try
to do
and i pray that i'm doing a good job is
i try to be intentional
with what i say so i don't mind sharing
things but i just try to be intentional
and not just throwing something out
there just
callously i try to be methodical and
calculated about what i put out there
and
through the ambassadorship i'm learning
that i am making an impact so i wouldn't
want to stop posting but yeah there's a
lot
that's fearful as we see people can
tweet something and then 10 years later
somebody bring it back
up hey you said and so i'm curious to
see in the future
how much grace and allowance we give one
another
because people are allowed to grow and
change but
it seems like people hold people to
certain standards and so i think that's
one
negative thing about social media but
outside of the technical side
giving people your data they know more
about you then you know about yourself
kind of thing
but yes i do still use technology but i
do have a healthy fear
of you know where things are going
because the laws have not kept up with
technology and i'm curious to see
where we're going moving forward what do
you wish more cs educators whether it's
k12 or higher ed what do you wish they
did a better job with helping students
understand with
social media or technology just doing a
better job of having students
explore the implications of what they
want to do
or how it might affect someone else i
think
for computer science a lot of times we
develop things and
boom somebody asked for something boom
here you go
but i'm not sure that we're taking into
an account
all of the things that go along with
that system like hey
this might be for xyz
this is a potential you know we need to
explore other components of the work
that we do
to better understand and i know that's a
whole different field
but i think as we're designing things we
should take those things into
consideration before we just hurry up
and
code something up or design something we
need to take a better account for
understanding or taking time to
understand our own code
what it means before we do a handoff and
i think that would be great
if we think a little bit more intensely
about those things
yeah especially the unintentional or
even sometimes
intentional biases that are built into
whether it's software hardware whatever
how can we
help students better understand or even
realize like oh there are biases
involved with this
like even just a simple example of like
scissors try
using scissors with your left hand and
it's not going to go very well
right i think what we're going to have
to start doing and my students don't
like this very much
they don't like group work but i do
think we're going to have to find ways
i'm being honest you know cs is again
one of those fields where you know
people like i just want to work by
myself i just want to code this up but
we have to figure out a way
to do more collaboration show people how
to work
better with others because as we've seen
some of us don't play well together but
we should
right that's the only way that we're
going to move forward not only because
cs
you know as a nation is when we work
together so if we can find ways to
help each other learn from each other
work with one another despite what we
want to do which is
sometimes working by ourselves because
i'm sure you've heard this before too
my students tell me all the time do i
have to work in a group i work better by
myself
do you really or is it easier for you
just to be by yourself and so i think
we're going to have to start pushing our
students and ourselves beyond our
comfort zones
which could be painful at points but i
think the outcomes of that
is going to prove to be tremendous just
working well together more
team brainstorming collaboration i think
that's going to help
then like multi-perspectival approach of
let's get many different
lenses or eyes looking at this from
different angles
so we can go oh we didn't think about
that
use case scenario so i'm curious on your
website you're
heavily connected with the arts how has
the arts impacted your own
understanding or journey in computer
science i think it all goes hand in hand
so i got the idea for dreams creative
group because i was helping people for
free
a lot i love building websites i love
helping people's streams you know become
realized and so
i came up with the idea it's still
working at the time but i was like maybe
i should start my own company because
i'm
pretty good at this i love doing it i've
been doing it for free for a very long
time and you know why not
see something from the work that i'm
already doing and
i don't do much with it now because i'm
just too too busy
with these grants and teaching and
trying to manage life
but i think it definitely played a huge
role because
it allowed me to have that creative side
creative
in learning more about who i am as a
leader
so when you start your own company there
are some things you got to figure out
and you got to figure them out fast
so that you can be successful like how
to run your organization
how to having a workflow how to
meet your clients needs and so i think i
found myself with skills
i knew that i had them but i didn't
realize to what depth
and then as far as the arts you know
with graphic design
and doing website development it was
just a fun
place for me like i said i love hearing
from people what they
want and then doing the best of my
abilities to deliver it to them
but also giving them the information
they need which is this is what you
don't know
this is what i can do this is what you
know i can do but i don't feel
comfortable doing or
does this meet your vision and so it's
helped me a lot because
a lot of just that is also what helps me
with my
course design and the way i deliver my
courses to my students the way i
approach problems and the way that i see
things
because i tap into that creative side
and i also prior to
that i also play the piano and so i know
for sure with the piano that helped me
with my
timing with my math and just keeping
that rhythm i think it's all
helped me when i bring it all together
to be good at what i do
i love all those things because i'm not
a one-dimensional person
i love many different things and they
all contribute to
what i bring to the table yeah having a
background in the arts it definitely can
not only inform what you do but it's
also can be
figuratively and literally just
therapeutic just to go through it so
highly recommend it if people are
listening and don't have some kind of
artistic creative expression
or outlet like find one there's many i'm
in total agreement with that
there are some other things i do too for
self-care that aren't in the arts but
yes it all helps bring that creativity
out yep so i'm
a bit of a practice nerd so you said
that you play piano
so thinking of taking how you improve
your piano abilities and like iterated
on it
over time how do you apply that kind of
practice mentality to your own abilities
either as an educator as a researcher so
like how do you try and improve
over time so one way that i improve
is i am a lifelong learner for every
student so
with teaching like right now i'm
enrolled in a class
for quality matters i'm always trying to
find ways to be better i actually told
someone
yesterday i'm never in competition with
anyone else other than myself i'm
working on being the best version of me
and who i was when i started being an
educator
i would like to think that i'm better
now than i was then and so i think what
keeps
me in that practice mode is knowing that
i'm not perfect
and that there's always room for
improvement and
with this pandemic my department was
always a hybrid program where you could
take online or in person
but i've always been more toward the in
person
but now i'm fully online so learning how
to create those engagements and
fun opportunities during a time where i
probably would have preferred to be in
person
has given me new ways to think about
things and how to reach my students and
how to make it fun
and not just looking at a computer
screen
when i'm teaching so i think taking
courses
staying engaged with other professors
other people i ask
my students lots of questions as much as
they ask me many questions i ask them
many questions as well
to see how things are going to check in
but i think just
taking courses even as a researcher
sometimes i might take a
it could be coursera or udacity or
whoever
i might take a course just to brush up
on my skills i think
what people need to understand is you
never get to a point in life
that you just don't need to do anything
anymore because
everything is always evolving especially
in technology things are constantly
involving what we were doing a year ago
or even
five years ago we're not doing right now
so i think just being in that mindset to
know
and this is actually why i chose
computer science because i told myself
one day i'm going to be the cool grandma
that's my goal i want to be the cool
grandma one day because
you know what technology's changing and
i always want to be at the forefront
and understanding or utilizing it in
some way because unfortunately when you
don't you get left behind
which is a lot of what the talks are
about you know ai
and technology taking people's jobs it
has
not taken jobs away but it's created new
jobs but if you don't have the skill
sets to do that
then you know it's kind of putting you
at a disadvantage so
i would say just keep practicing the
same way with the piano
play the song over and over again i play
so many songs over and over again to the
point where
i can literally be in my sleep and have
the song memorized
me playing it but that's when you really
love something when you just go
overboard with it but it's the same
thing with computers
how i got started was with websites when
i was in middle school
and i'm still like that with many things
i will love it so much
i will stay up all night long developing
it until i get it just right
but that's a passion and that's
different from practice passion and
practice are different but
my passion is what leads me to practice
constantly
and to keep pushing myself to be better
like today you and i doing this
i'm learning from you even though you're
interviewing me i'm still learning from
you because you're providing great
insights as well
so i too am a very passion driven
individual like
i get obsessive over learning new things
i'm gonna just dive deep into this and
just
like non-stop learning on that for
months and months but what about people
who
are in the field and they're like well i
don't really know what my passion is
like do you have any recommendations
on how to potentially find that or some
questions to consider to kind of
encourage people to find their own
that's a great question
i think that we have to take the same
approach that we're encouraging young
people to do which is
you know try it all one thing that this
pandemic has allowed us is more
opportunity more reach reach out to
someone if there's a specific area maybe
you want to be in machine learning reach
out
i actually had someone reach out to me
before the end of last year said hey
i've kind of been thinking about the
machine learning but do i need to do xyz
or can i just take this course
you know and so just reach out to people
ask questions
you know be a student again and i think
some of us are so afraid
to do that because once we get to this
certain level was oh i'm dr
grady you know i shouldn't ask questions
but no i'm a lifelong learner i'm going
to always ask
questions because that's who i am i want
to know i want to explore
and i think we have to have that spirit
of hey
i'm okay to ask because i know that i
don't know everything
and let's be honest who wants to know
everything i think that would just be
too much machine overload
so yeah so i would say just reach out
ask questions do your research and
just try it it's never too late to do
something completely different a lot of
the undergrads that i've worked with
they're like almost surprised to hear
when somebody with a phd is like
continuing their learning in some ways
like but wait didn't you finish school
it's like well yeah i finished school i
finished a degree but like i didn't
finish learning
right and this thing about life is
listen
we are learning every day i learned a
whole lot in 2020
whole lot yeah
mostly about myself but that was still a
lot
what recommendations do you have for
improving
equity and inclusion in computer science
education
i am taking a course right now about
that very thing in computing so
dr nikki washington has created a
class of sorts the 3c fellows to talk
about
diversity equity and inclusion in cs and
so
one of my recommendations is to read
learn more
about what's happening she curated this
wonderful book list
of books for us to read documentaries
for us to watch
i think half of the battle is sometimes
we don't know but we only know what we
know
we can't understand other people's
experiences or
the intersectionality everybody's not
the same you know just because i'm a
woman doesn't mean i have the same
experience as
another woman you know right number one
before we even start helping our
students we need to help ourselves
so we have to take time out to make sure
that we have that lens that
lens that we need to have to understand
what those three things are
how we can better apply them within our
own lives what does that look like for
our students so
i would say that we need to educate
ourselves because right now i feel like
those three words are being tossed
around a lot but i don't think that
people
really truly have sat down to think
about what
that really means what does diversity
or equity or inclusion mean in your
classroom how can the students
feel that how can they know that that's
a safe
place or that you have intentionally
designed
the course with that in mind and i think
those are things that take some time
and so my part that i'm doing to be
better is i'm
in dr nikki washington's class to make
sure that i have the tools that i need
so that i can continue to
try to provide that to my students so i
would encourage other
educators to do the same look and see if
there's a class or some type of training
because there's a lot we don't know
about one another and there's a lot we
don't know about how to do this because
unfortunately even though we should have
always been treating people the way we
would like to be treated
it's not what we've traditionally done
and so i just think we need to better
educate and equip ourselves
so that we can get better at this yeah
that really resonates and
if people are unsure where to start i've
got
an interview with nikki washington i did
an unpacking scholarship episode where i
talked about her paper
when twice as good as not good enough
and gloria ladson billings is
seminal paper on like culturally
relevant pedagogy so i'll include those
links in the show notes so people can
at least find some places to go to that
are
outside of just that but are there other
like recommendations that you might give
like hey
go check out nc wit if you want to learn
more about like gender
in technology and things like that yes
nc with a lot of these
other organizations and even conferences
now
like i know anita b and other
conferences they have these types of
workshops and panels that you can go to
to get the information but seek them out
there are people who are doing this work
who want to help you be a better you
but i will have to provide some
additional links i'm curious what about
what research do you wish there was that
could inform your own practices
so i can talk a little bit about one of
the things that i'm
working on which is the autonomous
vehicles work
i guess i wish there was
more work done on to be honest with you
understanding the dei
aspects or understanding the designs
of these technologies and i know people
working on those things now but for the
autonomous vehicles that's fairly new
and so we don't
quite know yet all of the you know
underpinnings behind
everything we don't really know how
these different panels and systems the
user display
or how even any of this is working under
the ethical considerations behind
how these devices make the choices they
make so
i think as we move forward in the future
i definitely would like a whole research
area on that
before we start getting into other
things about those systems
i see it already happening but we have
autonomous vehicles now but soon we're
going to be like the jetsons
we're going to be flying in the air
beyond airplanes i mean just vehicles
probably
i wonder about how we're going to do all
this you know who's thinking about these
things
and how does it work and how do we
create the policies and rules
i think that's one thing that i don't
see enough of how are we
managing this like even social media we
talked about it earlier
there are public policy makers and
things like that but why haven't the
laws kept up with technology
why don't we have more things into place
why are people not following the rules
and why aren't the rules more widely
available
i think that's something that i would
like to see more of if that makes sense
yeah my initial thinking out loud is i
imagine
most of the decisions from a corporate
standpoint are driven by money
and so they're often trying to find ways
to circumvent the rules
to just kind of do what they want to
make maximum profit for shareholders and
whatnot so
it's that like interesting game between
politicians and corporations
where they're both trying to navigate
around each other
how would you finish this sentence so
i'm currently working on something i
need help with
blank or would really love to
collaborate with somebody on
blank i would love to collaborate with
someone on as a passion thing working on
changing social media
where social media can be more inclusive
and equitable
i just don't really think we thought
about these things and how
you know like no one's reads the terms
of service
no one's reading the policies we're just
all online
people are keeping our data we don't
know what they're doing with it
you know i would just really love to
collaborate with someone to
work on these things work on them from
not the corporation standpoint but from
the
everyday user standpoint to make this
better for everyone
we appreciate people designing these
platforms for us but
i don't know if they were fully for us
in mind what do you feel is holding back
people in the field of computer science
and what could we do about it i think a
lot of what's
holding people back if i really think
about it
it just depends on what standpoint
you're coming from so from one
standpoint it's what i mentioned about
what we need to be doing with young
people
we don't play well together you know
everybody carves out their little piece
of the pie
and they say don't touch that that's
mine
and i think that is to a detriment
us not working together and
understanding
or even figuring things out together
again people
normally just have an idea and
somebody's like oh i can do that
and not really thinking about the
implications or
is it the best thing or is there another
way i would say what's holding the field
of computer science back is
not taking the time out to figure out
our code not taking the time out to
figure out our design
not taking the time out to get a second
opinion
just that peace i just think sometimes
we just work in our silos and we do come
up with
great things but they could have been
even greater
have we taken the time to have somebody
else take a look contribute something to
it
yeah i think that's what's holding the
field of cs back is
that dei we're not there yet i think
when we get there
technology is going to explode even
further because everybody will be
thought of
yeah i'm curious like would you
recommend more conferences that
specialize in that to try and draw
people in would you
recommend more publications or special
issues on the topic or
social media like hashtags for people to
kind of share ideas around this like
how could we as a field potentially
address some of those areas that are
lacking
yeah i think all of those things that
you just said i think
you know more conferences more trainings
more
discussions i think there is some
research happening but
i don't think enough work has been done
yet to really know
how well it's going or is that a great
way to approach something
i think we're getting there but i don't
want to make it sound like people
haven't been talking about these things
for years i mean they have
but i think that we've been doing too
much talking
and we need to start doing now start
holding one another accountable to some
of the things that we've been talking
about
sometimes i think you know as
researchers you know we're definitely
good at writing and reading and doing
all the things but we need to focus more
on
you know how do we do this how can we
get this done maybe the conference
have a session just on that where you
know people can share what they're doing
in their classrooms or
how they're helping their students
understand these things better
we just need to work on that and maybe
these are things that also need to be a
part of accreditation
processes as well you know are you all
following
xyz i think that once we get to
a structural organizational level it
needs to come from those types of places
for people to take them more seriously
so i did a little mini series on
padlo ferreira's book pedagogy of the
oppressed and talking about how
it's not enough to just reflect on the
oppression that's occurring you need to
actually act upon it
and act against it and so if you see a
problem
like cool we've talked about it but now
let's actually do something
to try and fix or alleviate that problem
in some way yeah i just think about
something so small in my newbies
even me being in my classes and like we
have to work on a group project and the
guys
immediately like hey so you take the
notes and i'm gonna do the coding
and i always have to say no you take the
notes i'm gonna go
you don't tell me what to do but
everybody's not that strong
to speak up that way right that's part
of the
you know things that we need to work on
because everybody's not the same so then
my last question where might people go
to connect with you and the
organizations that you work with
with me they can find me and i know my
last name now is grady
i'm on twitter and instagram as dr day
on facebook is the last part of the
handle is siobhan
c day my website is www.siobancyday.com
and even on my website it has all the
handles
everywhere some of the organizations
that i work with if you're wondering
about the
if-then initiative they can be found on
instagram i think it's
if then collection is their handle same
thing for
twitter north carolina central
university nccu
eagles pretty much if you follow me
you'll see me tag all these
organizations because i'm working with
all of them all the time
but those are the main ones if you go to
my website you can you find them there
i'm on everything i'm on linkedin too
feel free to look me up there
and tell me that you were listening to
the podcast and with that that concludes
this week's episode of the csk8 podcast
i really hope you enjoyed this interview
as much as i did and hope that you make
sure to reach out to siobhan
and visit their website which again you
can find in the show notes
by clicking the link in the description
or going to jaredler.com
if you enjoyed this episode make sure
you share it with somebody else or
consider providing a review on whatever
platform you're listening to this on
stay tuned next week for another
unpacking scholarship episode and the
following week for another interview
i hope you all have a wonderful and safe
week and thank you so much for listening

Guest Bio

Siobahn is the first female Computer Science Ph.D. graduate from North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University. Siobahn received her BS in Computer Science from Winston-Salem State University in 2005, her master’s degree in Information Science from North Carolina Central University in 2009, and in 2018 obtained her master’s and doctorate of philosophy degree in Computer Science from North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University.

She is an Assistant Professor of Information Science/Systems in the School of Library and Information Science at North Carolina Central University, an AAAS IF/THEN Ambassador, and a North Carolina Central University OeL Faculty Fellow. Prior to this, she served as an Adjunct Instructor at several colleges and universities where she taught an array of courses in Computer Science. She has delivered numerous presentations on a variety of Technology topics at national and regional conferences.

Siobahn is also an entrepreneur. She created Dreams Creative Group in April 2015 with one goal in mind – to elevate art. Dreams Creative Group offers unique web and graphic design solutions to individuals and institutions. Siobahn and her team of employees work tirelessly to make their clients’ dreams reality.

She is a member of several associations including The Alpha Zeta Omega Chapter of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc., Junior League of Durham and Orange Counties, Winston Salem State University National Alumni Association (Life Member), and North Carolina Central University National Alumni Association (Life Member). She also serves as a volunteer for various organizations including Boy Scouts of America, FIRST North Carolina, Girl Scouts of America, and ‘Black Girls Code’, which introduces Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics skills to African American girls.

Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode

Other podcast episodes that were mentioned or are relevant to this episode
- AI4ALL, Curriculum Development, and Gender Discourse with Sarah Judd
  - In this interview with Sarah Judd, we discuss what Sarah learned both in the classroom and as a CS curriculum writer, the curriculum Sarah continues to develop for AI4ALL, advice and philosophies that can guide facilitating a class and designing curriculum, some of our concerns with discourse on gender in CS, my recommended approach to sustainable professional development, and much more.
- Broadening Gender in Computing for Transgender and Nonbinary Learners
  - In this episode I unpack Menier, Zarch, and Sexton’s (2021) publication titled “Broadening gender in computing for transgender and nonbinary learners,” which is a position paper problematizes the current lack of trans and nonbinary individuals in discourse around gender in CS education.
- Examining Coding Skills of Five-year-old Children
  - In this episode I unpack Metin, Basaran, and Kalyenci’s (2023) publication titled “Examining coding skills of five-year-old children,” which investigates whether gender, parent education, or socioeconomic status has an impact on coding abilities of five-year-olds.
- How Early Does the CS gender Gap Emerge? A Study of Collaborative Problem Solving in 5th Grade Computer Science
  - In this episode I unpack Tsan, Boyer, and Lynch’s (2016) publication titled “How early does the CS gender gap emerge? A study of collaborative problem solving in 5th grade computer science,” which investigates the potential impact of gendered groups on the quality of completed Scratch projects in an in-school computer science class for 5th grade students.
- How to Get Started with Computer Science Education
  - In this episode I provide a framework for how districts and educators can get started with computer science education for free.
- Nicki Washington is Unapologetically Dope
  - In this interview with Nicki Washington, we discuss the importance of cultural competency, expanding beyond “diversity” by focusing on creating inclusive and equitable environments, learning from people and scholarship outside of the field, lessons learned working with CS educators across the country, lessons learned while teaching during a pandemic, focusing on the humanity in computer science education, and much more.
- Pedagogy of the Oppressed
  - Chapter one
    - This episode is the start of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 1, which discusses how oppressors maintain control over the oppressed. Following unpacking scholarship episodes discuss what this looks like in education and how educators can adopt a “pedagogy of the oppressed” to break cycles of oppression.
  - Chapter two
    - This episode is episode two of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 2, which discusses the “banking” approach to education that assumes students are repositories of information, and then proposes a liberatory approach to education that focuses on posing problems that students and teachers collaboratively solve. If you haven’t listened to the discussion on the first chapter, click here.
  - Chapter three
    - This episode is episode three of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 3, which discusses the importance of dialogue when engaging in liberatory practices. This episode builds off the previous unpacking scholarship episodes on chapter one and chapter two, so make sure you listen to those episodes before jumping in here.
  - Chapter four
    - This episode is the final episode of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 4, which synthesizes the concepts introduced in the previous chapters and discusses the difference between anti-dialogical and dialogical practices in education (and at large). This episode builds off the previous unpacking scholarship episodes on chapter one, chapter two, and chapter three so make sure you listen to those episodes before jumping in here.
- Promoting Equity and Activism in Computer Science Education with Kim Wilkens
  - In this interview with Kim Wilkens, we discuss embracing failure, encouraging activism and community impact through CS and technology, supporting marginalized gender identities in CS, and much more.
- When Twice as Good Isn't Enough: The Case for Cultural Competence in Computing
  - In this episode I unpack Washington's (2020) paper titled "When twice as good isn't enough: The case for cultural competence in computing," which explores the five elements and six stages of cultural competence in relation to undergraduate computing programs.
- More episodes related to equity
- More episodes related to HBCU
- More episodes related to inclusion
- More episodes related to machine learning
- More episodes related to self care
- More episodes related to social media
- All other episodes
Learn more about North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University
Learn more about the American Association for the Advancement of Science IF/THEN Ambassadors
Learn more about blackcomputeHER.org fellows
Check out my dissertation
Watch The Social Dilemma, the documentary we mentioned
Resources we mentioned
- NCWIT
- Anita B
Listen to the episodes on Pedagogy of the Oppressed
Connect with Siobahn
Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter