Rhizomatic Learning with Catherine Bornhorst, Jon Stapleton, and Katie Henry

Rhizomatic Learning with Catherine Bornhorst, Jon Stapleton, and Katie Henry

Jared O'Leary

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In this panel discussion with Catherine Bornhorst, Jon Stapleton, and Katie Henry, we discuss what rhizomatic learning is and looks like in formalized educational spaces, affordances and constraints of rhizomatic learning, how to support individual students within a group setting, standards and rhizomatic learning, why few people know and use rhizomatic learning approaches, how to advocate for and learn more about rhizomatic learning, and much more.

• Auto-generated transcript (click to expand)

  Welcome back to another episode of the

  CSK8 podcast my name is jared o'leary

  each week of this podcast alternates

  between an unpacking scholarship episode

  where i talk about some research in

  relation to cs education

  and an interview however this week

  instead of an interview we're doing a

  panel session on rhizomatic learning

  on the panel we have catherine bornhurst

  john stapleton

  and katie henry which by the way if two

  of those names sound familiar both john

  and katie have been interviewed on this

  podcast and if you haven't listened to

  those episodes yet i'll include a link

  in the show notes because they are

  definitely worth listening to

  all right so if you're wondering well

  what is rhizomatic learning

  a quick way to describe it is instead of

  going through sequential learning where

  like everybody goes on to step one and

  then the group goes to step two and then

  you go to step three like

  from one sequence to the next instead of

  that approach rhizomatic learning is

  more

  like a network of nodes so if you think

  of like this

  network that has like a thousand

  different nodes on it all connected to

  each other in different ways

  instead of everybody starting on the

  same note and going to the next node

  kids can start on any node and head in

  any direction they want to

  so if each node is a standard a concept

  a practice whatever

  kids could start on any one of those

  concepts practices standards and then

  head in any direction

  so if you have 30 kids in the class they

  could be working on 30 different

  projects

  i know this approach is very different

  than what most people are used to in

  k12 and even higher ed context however

  i hope this panel discussion sparked

  some interest in learning more about

  this particular poach because it can

  work really well

  with a variety of age groups i've done

  this with kindergartens all the way up

  through graduate students at

  universities

  all right well enough of me talking so

  let's now get into an introduction by

  each of the panelists

  hi my name is katie henry and i'm the

  head of partner engagement for the

  microbit educational foundation

  i'm a former classroom and steam teacher

  and really passionate about rhizomatic

  teaching and learning and excited to be

  here

  hi my name is catherine will bornhorst

  my pronouns are she

  and hers i'm currently the executive

  director of the national network for

  educational renewals we have 13 settings

  across the country that are experts in

  school university partnerships

  and i came into rhizomatics

  and rhizomatic learning and rhizome

  analysis actually through a dear friend

  and colleague of mine

  which made me realize in like even my

  preparation for today that i think i

  have more of an intuition

  and a feel for rhizomatics almost than

  like an intellectual understanding

  of this too but i'm excited to blend and

  learn more

  and i have to say too my entry into

  being executive director was

  through classroom teaching so when i

  think about this it's really through the

  eyes of kids through the classroom

  dynamic

  hi i'm john stapleton i teach computer

  science

  and coding at a high school in the

  shenandoah valley in virginia

  i'm a former slash recovering music

  teacher and my training is in music

  education

  i am passionate about using coding and

  computer science as a creative

  field and a place for

  kids to be empowered to shape the world

  around them

  i come to computer science from like a

  creativity lens from an arts-based lens

  primarily and i was introduced to

  rhizomes through research and my

  master's degree and

  research with my mentors and colleagues

  throughout my music education background

  so

  it's also like my rhizomes thing is

  definitely

  colored by my music education

  experiences

  as well as my computer science teaching

  experience in the classroom so

  what exactly is rhizomatic learning what

  does it mean to

  each of you i'll start but won't finish

  and

  it is that resomatic learning is

  recognizing at any given point you're

  just in a connection to other points

  like there's no

  start and finish there's connections and

  rhizomatic teaching and learning

  recognizes

  that anyone who names a linear path is

  really just claiming their implicit bias

  and making it visible to all that you

  know teaching and learning is inherently

  personal unique and mysterious

  and when people come together to share

  and learn many different things are

  happening beneath the surface

  that can't be seen but are very

  important and so

  that's my start and i can jump off that

  for sure when i explain rasmatic

  learning to other people i usually

  start with the term like naturalistic

  learning or organic learning

  that we are recognizing that people

  learn things about themselves and about

  the world and about other

  people in a unique way that's based on

  their background

  and other confounding factors that we

  can't really know about other people so

  as we're teaching

  and learning with each other we're kind

  of tracing these individual paths we're

  mapping

  our world in unique ways and discovering

  different things through different paths

  compared to other people it's a dense

  kind of network and figuring out what

  paths people are going to take as they

  learn one thing and then the next thing

  is interesting and challenging and

  unique for everyone it's all kind of an

  interconnected

  web where we cross each other and meet

  each other at different places based on

  our

  unique paths i would certainly say

  everything that

  john and katie just said which is more

  kudos to you jared for pulling us all

  together

  i typically avoid ever saying that i

  even am familiar with this

  like strange squirrely body of knowledge

  for fear of not

  giving it the justice it's so compelling

  to me

  like i said before it's more intuition

  almost and an

  intellectual understanding which i think

  is by design

  too but for me rhizomatics or like

  nomadic thought rhys analysis is seeing

  everything with fresh eyes

  and not beholden to your certain ways of

  knowing

  and knowledge right and like it's

  giving permission to entirely be in the

  moment to take the work at hand

  and like katie was saying and

  referencing this like linear path

  towards something

  you know you're not it and you know john

  i appreciate you bringing up maps as

  like kind of a metaphor for this too

  like mapping a new trajectory

  mapping a new line as opposed to tracing

  right or some sort of really you know if

  you think about the tree as like the

  orbalic

  metaphor not having this linear way of

  getting to a destination i really

  appreciate you bringing up the tree

  in the literature for those who are not

  familiar with this concept like we

  compare a rhizome

  which is this dense interconnected

  network with multiple nodes and multiple

  paths between different locations to a

  tree where you start at one place

  and you kind of branch out it's just

  sort of almost deterministic

  model versus this undeterministic model

  and as teachers i think

  a lot of our training is based around

  this idea of a deterministic model where

  we have a sequence

  it's a very linear path and we're trying

  to keep kids

  between guardrails in that sequence and

  rhizomatic learning rejects the sequence

  the linear sequence at least and it

  embraces the personal sequence

  it's kind of vamp on that i was just

  thinking about how like backwards design

  model

  is kind of like the opposite of this in

  terms of

  it's almost like the eiffel tower where

  you can start from many different

  positions but then it builds up to one

  culminating thing like one unique

  experience that

  that's the only option because that's

  what you're designing everything around

  whereas rhizomatic is

  i don't know where we're gonna start i

  don't know where we're going to end

  but i'm curious because this approach is

  very different from what is done in i'd

  say the majority of

  education in the u.s so how did each of

  you learn

  about this particular approach i like

  got

  pulled into it from she was a professor

  of mine in undergrad

  her name is dr sherry leafgren the way

  that

  she characterized teaching was very much

  in this essence of a nomad

  that you're looking to smooth you're

  looking to complicate you're looking to

  contest

  these really standardized ways of seeing

  schools and classrooms and

  primarily her entryway was around

  obedience or disobedience

  better how you are pending to look at

  that right

  and she gave me an opportunity to share

  my early experiences in schools

  because i think that's the role of

  rhizomatics is to look at the unexamined

  like what's happening between these

  spaces of linear thought or trajectories

  like

  how can you complicate and find out more

  about what's going on in there

  and so again my natural way of seeing

  kids my natural way of wanting to be in

  the classroom

  was examining these typically unexamined

  spaces

  so she and her research pulled me in and

  soon katie

  too because of our similar ways of

  seeing

  ourselves as future teachers it's kind

  of interesting as i was thinking about

  this

  panel today like my early entryway

  into rhizomatics was a tracing it was

  like this is something

  important to somebody who i love and

  adore so it was almost like a

  replication of even though i was part of

  that work

  and it's taken some of that distance and

  even my own tinkering with it to realize

  that even your own relationship to this

  work is different than

  you know people who've brought you in

  too

  i would not know the word rhizome in the

  context of teaching and learning if it

  were not

  for dr sherry leafgren and as catherine

  mentioned

  being invited to join some work that she

  was doing

  and really i was the classroom teacher

  at the time that

  i was really invested and learning

  kind of in the classroom through

  practice what this could be something

  that was just said is this idea of

  not knowing where you're going there's a

  lot of not knowing involved with

  rhizomatic teaching and learning but

  there is a lot of knowing too

  and it's just it's just a question of

  who's doing the knowing

  and when and how is the knowing being

  validated

  and seen and who is in the power

  to make those seeing moments to see

  what's being done

  and with sherry there was always dr

  leafgren

  there was always this ability to speak

  to her and with catherine about things

  that weren't

  seen we could have very fluid

  conversations about

  the invisible world the unseen world

  and honestly i would still tell you i'm

  still learning what this

  approach to life means every day i

  recently met

  a person who from a very tiny a very

  very tiny country in africa

  compared to many other countries in

  africa eritrea east of ethiopia

  and he possesses this incredible peace i

  have never experienced the type of peace

  that he carries within him i thought i

  knew how to achieve a state of

  just semi i got something to aspire to i

  want to feel that peaceful again

  his way of knowing and being in the

  world is altogether different and

  i am left astounded again and again and

  this is just life it's just like letting

  go and not knowing

  but not giving up there's a fear factor

  of tell me where i'm going and how to

  get there

  you can take your water bottle you can

  take your compass

  you can have goals of joy and love and

  productivity but if you already have it

  all planned out before you get started

  i would say you're not really creating

  something new and you're just

  controlling

  and probably controlling to your

  implicit bias and power structure

  i love the mapping metaphor that keeps

  coming out my introduction to rhizomes

  was through

  reading delusion guateri with two

  philosophers who wrote about rhizomes

  and

  this like philosophical concept and

  applying it to teaching through my

  collaboration with jesse rathger who's

  my mentor in my master's degree

  and also conversations with jared and

  other music education folks

  thinking about how the rhizome is a

  heuristic for understanding how we can

  think of our relationship to teaching

  and learning with other people

  i like how you talked about how there's

  lots of knowing and lots of not knowing

  at the same time

  as a teacher we're used to trying to

  know everything there is to know about

  the situation in the classroom we're

  trying to know what our students

  know we're trying to know what our

  students used to know and how we can

  help them

  know more things and we know what they

  have to know and we also know how

  they're going to get from

  what they know now to what they should

  know later and i think teaching

  with rhizomes in mind gives us

  permission

  to say i don't actually know what's

  important for you

  to know but you might and you can

  discover that on your own

  and we are mapping out your journey

  together you will come to know

  yourself and your knowledge by learning

  and you will have your map and you'll be

  able to

  record those things in your memory and

  your experiences

  but everyone else's map might be

  different and while we're together we're

  also a part in these sort of very

  personal

  journeys i hope that i'm getting out

  what you all are getting at i feel like

  i agree with everything you all are

  saying

  so what are some of the affordances of

  rhizomatic learning what does it allow

  you or encourage kids to be able to do

  that they couldn't do with other

  approaches like sequential learning i

  think

  for me one of the reasons why i fell in

  love with

  this way of thinking of being part of it

  is the metaphor like falling in love

  with the metaphor that is this way of

  thinking and seeing and knowing

  right but for me it affirmed too

  if we're doing some background on you

  know rhizomatics

  you have the metaphor of the rhizome but

  you also have the nomad

  right who's opposed to the state and

  they're

  reliant upon the other right so for the

  nomad to be non-hierarchical and to

  smooth the spaces

  and to complicate things and push back

  on the state tries to striate

  and give these lines of these boundaries

  these

  ways of existing these linear paths

  right

  and so for me when i think about this

  work it actually softens and makes me

  understand that

  some things that the state offers are

  necessary for me to do

  disruptive contested work

  right and it gives me more leverage more

  opportunity

  to think about how i want to complicate

  these really standardized ways of seeing

  the world or

  these linear things that were these

  deterministic spaces that we're in

  every time you say the word

  deterministic i know this isn't

  what you mean it's one of the thoughts

  that it gives into my brain though

  is i picture a person who who buys their

  milk the same way every time

  i've always wondered if you could

  disrupt the way a teacher grocery shops

  could you disrupt their teaching because

  the approach to routines in life comes

  from

  how you move through the world like

  parker palmer who says i teach who i am

  isn't so far off the mark like the way

  you approach your life and your

  relationships and the way

  a person loves and sees their future

  oftentimes gets

  oppressed impressed depressed onto

  the learners in the classroom and what

  i'm trying to say is

  when you take an approach to rhizomatic

  learning it's

  actually not usually something you do in

  a one-off it actually will flow from the

  way you live

  in the way you work with colleagues it's

  not as if you can't buy your milk

  every saturday at 10 a.m at the same

  place and then put it in your cart in

  the same way

  but if your happiness depends on that

  then just recognize that your students

  happiness might depend on the very

  opposite the very thing that makes you

  unhappy

  could be quite pleasing to your child to

  your students in your classroom

  and that's where that letting go part

  gets really scary because

  when i do the thing that comforts me i

  might be doing something that's causing

  discomfort to someone else and so

  learning to be uncomfortable and knowing

  that your discomfort

  isn't reflective of you being a bad

  teacher not being prepared

  not being able to provide something for

  your students you can be

  really uncomfortable and doing

  incredible work with and for your

  students

  that's hard to learn i don't like to be

  uncomfortable

  i completely understand what you're

  saying i think some of the other

  affordances i think of when i think of

  rhizomatic learning

  are like i can improvise i have freedom

  to improvise

  i can follow students where they want to

  go instead of me setting out the tracing

  for them to follow

  instead of them tracing the lines that

  i'm giving them conceptually as they

  learn things

  they can create their own paths

  and i can help them i can walk with them

  i'm not helping them get to

  a predetermined location i'm helping

  them discover

  this uncharted territory of the things

  that they're interested in their lives

  and

  i also really agree with what catherine

  was saying about the relationship

  of the state to the nomad as someone

  who's embracing rhizomatic learning in

  my classroom i'm putting myself in the

  role of the nomad and trying to

  break down these linear striated

  structures for students i'm

  existing in opposition to the state

  literally the state i am a public school

  teacher so

  the state is handing down these linear

  categories

  of what we need to learn what we need to

  cover and i'm putting myself in direct

  opposition to that

  and trying to break down the arborescent

  understanding of learning from the state

  and trying to break out of that so if

  you are frustrated by the fact that in a

  classroom

  we have so many opportunities to follow

  different things and discover

  different topics every year and you're

  frustrated by the fact that the

  structure you're within

  is expecting you to do the same thing

  every year to the same students and

  reproduce this stuff i think rhizomatic

  learning

  its main affordance is that it is a way

  of understanding

  a different strategy a different way of

  being in the classroom that doesn't

  follow

  those norms that are imposed by the

  state both figuratively

  like the metaphor of the state and also

  literally if you're a public school

  teacher by the state

  i have to jump in there because between

  katie's visualization of like going to

  get milk a certain way and put it in

  your cart at the same time

  every weekend and john the way that you

  talked about you know like the actual

  state

  as being a teacher like and also katie

  the way that you're talking about not

  wanting to be uncomfortable what i'm

  understanding in this work and

  rhizomatics is that

  you can have arbolescent knots in a

  rhizome right so you can live very

  nomadically

  you can live like the rhizome but have

  parts of you

  that appreciate and are compelled to be

  barbalescent right like or

  linear or like i just really want my

  milk at 10 o'clock every day on a

  weekend

  right you know because that's just it

  brings me unreasonable joy

  or you can be you know with the metaphor

  of the tree or

  you can have off one of the leaves a

  more rhizomatic or nomatic way

  of that portion of what is a linear you

  know

  existence to be complicated and

  contested too so

  i think that's where i've grown in my

  appreciation of this too

  is that it's not one or the other and

  for me

  being in the position of an executive

  director it's like looking

  for those moments where you can't

  necessarily complicate and throw it all

  away and start anew

  from a more organic and rhizomatic way

  it's like where do i want to attach

  myself

  on this tree per se to

  make this more rhizomatic in this

  specific space

  i don't remember if i'm quoting this

  correctly but in a thousand plateaus

  julius guateriu are writing about the

  rhizome and they're saying that

  this whole body without organs this like

  absolutely decentralized

  network is a horizon not a goal because

  and they say like the only people who

  might actually get to this point are

  like people who destroy themselves by

  fully embracing

  this decentralized essence if we're kind

  of talking about that in the context of

  teaching that might be a little bit too

  like out there but i do agree that we're

  existing in a social structure that is

  very arborescent in a lot of ways and it

  is a horizon for teachers and you're

  gonna have

  moments of linearity regardless and so a

  lot of teachers are like well you're

  just not gonna you're not like throw

  away everything and you're just gonna

  start from scratch and

  well no no no i still have to take

  attendance like

  i still have to do different things that

  are within the structure but it's more

  of like can we inject a little bit of

  of a nomadic way of navigating these

  arborescent structures and maybe we can

  even break it down a little bit and

  destroy some of these arbors and

  structure and give way to a rhizome if

  it's appropriate okay so you've all got

  me

  convinced now this is a cool approach

  maybe i'll try this someday but

  what are some of the constraints that

  you see with this approach

  so having done rhizomatic learning like

  i know it affords you to be able to do

  some things and enables you to do some

  things but in what ways might it

  constrain you

  in other ways sometimes you work

  really late really really really late

  and you sometimes are tired

  you're tired a lot it's a good tired

  especially in the beginning if you're

  just starting out

  it's hard to know how to

  engage your students in ways that let

  them

  co-create with you in the classroom in

  real time

  and you don't often know where that's

  going to be so if you had

  a month's worth of activities planned

  for

  a math unit you now probably don't have

  a month planned ahead

  you might have the next 48 hours kind of

  figured

  out and i'll be honest you know

  i had the luxury of being a single first

  year teacher

  i didn't have the family

  responsibilities that a lot of

  educators do i didn't have other

  responsibilities

  that took my time away from in the

  evenings i had the luxury of time

  and that's not a luxury a lot of people

  have my

  i spilled out into my evenings a lot

  probably more than others would want to

  yeah there's a lot of

  having to find resources to support

  learning and whatnot and like

  help guiding and whatnot that is

  involved with this much more so than

  just

  well here's the curriculum that's in my

  hand and me now i just go through line

  by line how to do this it's

  if you have 30 kids in the class they

  might be learning 30 different things

  at least so how do you find ways to

  support them as individuals and a

  collective it can be exhausting

  looking out for the rhizome in the wild

  we can find people people compare the

  internet to a rhizomes interconnected

  mass of data and relationships

  and we know that these rhizomatic

  structures can

  reinforce existing problems with our

  society

  like you think of misogyny and online

  learning spaces we are in a rhizome

  because everyone's forging their own

  path through things

  they're not necessarily being challenged

  to take other people's paths

  in mind and so one of the things i was

  thinking about in preparing for this

  conversation

  is we're approaching the rhizome as this

  purely free

  freeing scare quotes for those who are

  not watching me on camera

  what we're doing is we might be giving

  people who are in positions of power

  permission

  to abuse that freedom and to kind of

  become a

  conqueror instead of a discoverer of

  learning given that we are kind of all

  participating in this

  larger system that individuals don't

  necessarily have a whole lot of agency

  over

  in the opposite position if you're

  someone who doesn't have privilege

  coming into the space then you may not

  be empowered to participate

  in the rhizome in the rhizomatic

  learning experience you may not have the

  skills

  to collaborate with your teacher because

  of past experiences

  that make you put up walls like

  rhizomatic learning is

  predicated on conversation and on

  collaboration but i have students who

  don't trust me

  and they shouldn't right they've been

  participating in an educational

  structure where white men like me have

  really

  abused their trust and i have to forge

  that relationship

  first that work is ongoing it's forever

  and so the the constraint of the rhizome

  is that because we're doing that work at

  the same time as learning in a really

  intentional way and trying to forge

  collaboration and make sure that the

  community

  is healthy we are not necessarily

  efficiently heading towards these

  learning outcomes

  we're taking care of a lot of things at

  once and we're all sort of

  it's almost more diffuse in a way when

  i'm

  teaching based on rhizomatic learning

  framework a lot of my days

  are hectic and me making a lot of

  resources and kids are moving a bunch of

  different directions

  and so when i'm trying to communicate to

  the kids where we're headed

  uh they're asking me what are we gonna

  learn is there a final project for this

  class

  because i am again i'm participating in

  a structure that is arborescent at its

  core

  they're expected they have carried those

  expectations into my classroom i have to

  tell them like

  no we're not gonna do that this is a

  different situation and we have to build

  skills for them to help navigate that

  and feel empowered to navigate that

  otherwise they're gonna rely on tracing

  other people's paths

  which sort of defeats the purpose and it

  becomes less responsive

  if one person sort of decides that or

  one teacher decides

  that this rhizomatic learning thing is

  bs and we're not going to commit to it

  and they choose a path that pulls kids

  in towards this one

  thing a lot of kids will actually enjoy

  a lack of

  uncertainty they will enjoy being

  comfortable and enjoy having

  clear expectations and a clear metro for

  success instead of problematizing the

  clear metric of success

  we're going to rely on that clear metric

  of success to scaffold us

  and breaking out of that can be very

  challenging it's a huge constraint i

  think

  john what you said made me think of like

  two things one is

  rhizomatics is emancipatory as a teacher

  to the point of like employability

  right or even as a leader like feeling

  like you

  people can make sense of who you are and

  what you know because they're trying to

  place you and their territories and

  their bounded spaces right so you don't

  want to be too

  overtly i guess nomadic that they're

  like she's not going to contribute to

  what we're trying to offer

  as a teacher or a leader whoever however

  you find this work and then

  also what i'm hearing is that it's

  emancipatory

  learning and teaching but with an

  unintended

  what feels like oppressiveness to

  students or those around you

  who don't view that as emancipatory too

  these structures and this like you know

  connection and

  need for these bounded spaces to feel

  successful

  and i've over the last six years have

  been an instructor at miami university

  in their teacher education

  program too so the same thing that

  you're sharing with your students

  like where are we going with this or how

  many pages should it be or how many

  words like

  those things drive me absolutely bonkers

  but i have to remember

  that that's the state right that's being

  schooled

  so my work then in being a nomad

  is like unveiling some of that right

  and i guess in some ways too still

  supporting them in those boundaries

  that they need to feel initially

  successful too

  we've talked about the linear paths that

  are kind of forced upon educators

  students etc i'm curious where do you

  see standards

  fitting or not fitting within resomatic

  approach what should we do

  with national standards or things like

  that is there a place for them

  in a rhizomatic approach to learning or

  no

  i think yes there can be and there is

  there already is if you're a rhizomatic

  teacher today there's a really good

  chance you're being a rhizomatic teacher

  with standards

  so how do you view them my simple answer

  is i see them

  as stepping stones there's no prescribed

  method of

  how to step across the stones and how

  long to jump and twist and flip and turn

  and where you go and when you come back

  what i would do to problematize

  standards in my classroom

  i would take key language like let's

  just take decimals for example and i

  would say

  myself first and then to my students

  when are decimals a problem in your life

  that's a really provocative question for

  whether decimals a problem in your life

  what does she even mean by that question

  there's so much brainstorming around

  decimals being a problem in your life

  that right away you're in a real deep

  math conversation

  on the very thing you're hoping they'll

  get creative about without imposing on

  them some

  timeline that's artificial and only

  makes sense for your grade book

  now you've got kids thinking about

  decimals in their life

  this is the beginning of a rhizomatic

  mathematical conversation that

  might go into spelling it might go on to

  the playground

  it might bring in the cafeteria it might

  involve redecorating your classroom

  and so asking good questions is

  something anybody can do

  with the standards we have and really

  good rhizomatic learning can happen

  with standards and with good questions

  catherine how do you feel about that

  i want to argue with somebody about

  something do you want to argue right now

  let's

  what are you thinking no i think

  everything that you said

  is absolutely embodied in what

  rhizomatics is hoping of all of us even

  beyond being an educator right

  like what i said at the beginning you

  can't have the nomad without the state

  so if you're considering standards as

  like a way to striate

  or bound a certain way if you're

  thinking like a tree then that's like an

  impediment to your growth like i have to

  go through these standards to continue

  down this linear path

  what katie just so like visualized for

  us is that the standards exist in these

  multitudes of ways that she sees herself

  in a classroom right a standard is

  something that she can look with fresh

  eyes

  for moments of possibility that she asks

  her kids about

  how do decimals like toy with your mind

  or ruin your life or do

  like however you want to frame that

  right offers these like

  multiple trajectories that allow you to

  you know teach and learn in this way and

  again the contested thing is like yeah

  but this is where

  the pragmatism i guess comes into this

  is like well for me to defend and

  continue doing this teaching then my

  kids have to do well on the tests

  and i think that's like one of the

  biggest binaries that you have

  in rhizomatics is that while this is a

  way of teaching and learning

  and it's intuitive and it's you know

  john you mentioned at the beginning

  ecologically or naturalistically this is

  the way

  that we operate as like living beings

  the survival value or like the

  survivability of doing this in some ways

  is baked into these test scores

  right so i think that's like kind of the

  difficulty

  in a lot of this too because we need to

  defend

  like defend that this is what's good for

  kids is good for teachers

  so i'll argue with you another time

  katie i guess

  i've actually got a thing to argue with

  that one of the things that i was

  thinking of when you were both talking

  is

  but aren't standards still a form of a

  well-worn path to wander down

  rather than just like uncharted

  territory and isn't

  standards still a form of oppression in

  terms of it's saying this is what is

  considered to be valuable to know

  and the things that are not standards

  are not valuable even though

  you can approach standards risomatically

  isn't that still

  preventing the nature of rhizomatic

  learning in terms of heading in whatever

  direction

  yes

  i thought you wanted to argue katie and

  then you just hit it with the yes

  oh god the roots are deep

  yes jared but john please go ahead

  i like when people bring up standards

  when we talk about this topic because

  there's so many ways to think about

  standards they can be

  our well-worn path of learning a thing

  they're also a political statement about

  what it means to know

  something that statement is up for

  argument we don't have to believe the

  state when they say that this is what it

  means to know something

  but asking kids to think about that is

  really fun

  i think and we learn a lot from that

  conversation here's what the state says

  a programmer is you know how to code

  some things we've done this all year

  what do you think about that and i also

  if we're going to stick with the map

  metaphor standards can also be beacons

  they can be these tall structures we can

  see from great distances on our map as

  we're kind of exploring our territory

  and we can head towards them because

  they seem interesting or we can ignore

  them because they seem scary or

  oppressive

  the last thing i want to say about

  standards is this whole can of worms

  but who is the state in the relationship

  between the teacher and the standards

  is it the actual state is it the public

  is it your community

  is it a corporation that's decided what

  these standards are supposed to be

  what are their interests those are also

  political statements and i think

  that not all standards are created the

  same and we shouldn't regard them as the

  same

  we shouldn't take them as seriously

  depending on their sources

  i'm actually a teacher like i'm not

  saying ignore the standards i know you

  can't do that without getting fired

  trust me

  no one's listening to us i'll tell you

  it's okay to not like them it's okay to

  think they suck

  i'm more interested in if we do have

  standards but the standards are written

  are not the only standards

  that are out there we have standards

  from other places that are unwritten

  and we can still incorporate all those

  things into our rhizomatic learning

  framework so why not the written

  standards why can't we treat those the

  same

  and ultimately if people ask me like

  well do you think we should get rid of

  standards i'm like well yeah kinda i

  kind of do think that

  maybe i don't feel that fully and i

  don't have the power to make that happen

  but i'll say it you know i

  think that we'd be better off with a

  different metric for success

  i don't know that i'm alone in that

  feeling in this company but i know that

  other people may disagree with me i'm

  okay to have that argument at me on

  twitter

  [Laughter]

  learning standards and state standards

  are

  in its essence but we just standardize

  ways of knowing right it's like these

  ways that we exist in the world so i

  think this has happened as

  we say that education has become more

  progressive and inclusive

  these standardized ways of knowing have

  just like shape-shifted another really

  still oppressive and narrowed way of

  seeing the teaching and learning

  endeavor and i think for me rhizomatics

  and its intersections

  with the state with the standards is

  really just saying just it's just a

  narrow way of existing

  and seeing the world and actually when

  i'm employing this perspective

  as a teacher or when i'm thinking of my

  students as learners

  the standards become almost trivial to

  the things that we're

  pursuing collectively so if i'm thinking

  about maybe a standard of experience

  like lillian katz talks about standards

  of experience that we're offering our

  students

  and then if you're thinking about these

  enduring understandings or these larger

  ways like when katie was referencing

  like what pisses you off about decimals

  right i don't think you actually said

  that but

  those kinds of like provocative

  questions you

  go on that pers that trajectory or if

  you know if we're speaking like i don't

  even know how to say the other

  guitar what is it john guterie atari is

  fine yeah

  i don't i don't know him i don't think

  he cares it's like when you read harry

  potter the first time and you have the

  names of characters in your mind and

  then they say it on the video and you're

  like i've been saying

  this wrong for seven years game of

  thrones yeah

  lord the rings all of these big names

  yes yep

  but no what happens is you realize that

  you're hitting i don't know 75

  of your standards just by asking kids

  what pisses you off about decimals

  you know so it's like sure i can talk

  about standards but

  i'm way beyond my understanding of what

  that is yeah like how high is that bar

  really you know

  like if we actually look at it is it

  really that hard to do this and also hit

  the standards

  i mean my experience the answer is no

  i'm open to being refuted on that

  you know if you think about the rhizome

  we're not immune to rupture

  or being severed or injury right

  but that idea of like you still have the

  same kind of you know

  assault the same kind of infliction this

  is

  i guess like in a lot of ways probably

  the way we're narrating

  doing rhizomatics is like this glorified

  easy way

  of moving through the world because

  every shoot

  like all of these ways it just makes

  sense and it's super fluid

  but no like i've been in tears i've felt

  in isolation

  you know actually one of the reasons why

  when we did this original

  yarn rhizome actually what we did in a

  presentation

  at aara with like all the champagne

  toasts and fancy salads so

  there are some conferences for educators

  that have fancy salads

  aera being one of them but i don't know

  what 2020 has done to fancy salads

  and conferences so we'll see one of the

  ways that we

  were able to articulate and talk about

  our relationship to rhizomatics as

  teachers

  was to create a yarn rhizome where we

  tied all of these different

  like textured and different colors and

  shapes and sizes of yarn together

  and then like had some sort of totem is

  that like or like some sort of

  like thing that characterized a story

  that when

  you overlaid the rhizome and you picked

  up your story that

  speaks to your rhizomatic teaching

  everything else came along with it

  right and like that's a big component to

  rhizomatics is that

  everywhere you start is connected to

  some other part of it

  eventually and each part of it tells

  literally a different story

  and then what happened on the flip side

  of that though is in our

  discussion of what a rhizome is and

  telling our stories as teachers

  it was also a safety net it was this

  like we've

  found ourselves similar to the people on

  this call

  in this like actual feeling of a safety

  net like an embrace

  of understanding that this is something

  that you are held

  in to so yeah kitty good

  advice there that this is really hard

  work but we do have the internet

  and someday we will have fancy salads

  mark my words

  i've got a fancy blended salad i really

  hope that doesn't turn into something

  [Laughter]

  we've talked about how rhizomatic

  learning is this awesome cool thing that

  you can do

  so if this is such a great thing why is

  it that we think that so few

  people actually know about it and most

  people instead focus on like a backwards

  design for learning

  one of the constraints is that

  rhizomatic learning is a little bit hard

  to

  really nail it down yeah an

  understanding by design or like

  backwards design or

  some of these other more like popular

  sequencing heuristics are really

  easy to describe and to say like this is

  a good version this is a bad version

  here's how you do it it's kind of easy

  to teach i guess

  i think part of it is that rhizomatic

  pedagogy

  or rhizomatic learning is more

  experiential i don't know that there's

  that many shortcuts

  to implementing it like if you spend an

  hour in a professional development

  learning about rhizomatic learning

  you're probably not going to come out of

  that

  with like a level of mastery and comfort

  you're going to have a lot of questions

  and that isn't a really good business

  model if you're trying to like get

  people to sign up for your pds like

  you're going to sign up for this thing

  and you're going to come away

  with tons of questions about yourself

  and your teaching and that might not be

  immediately useful to you unless you

  have that particular kind of way of

  looking at things

  that's a good point i'm smiling and

  laughing at katie to see

  if she will continue with her single

  response there

  knowing that you're bursting i was going

  to unmute and say

  i understand you completely

  i feel like this is like blackout poetry

  i've never participated in it but that

  sounds that sounds right

  john do you want to explain what it is

  your response was so like

  short and well articulated compared to

  mine that i felt like

  it had meaning beyond like i i was only

  seeing a part of it and there was like

  an iceberg of meaning below

  but i appreciate it thank you i'm kind

  of making a joke and it's not very oh

  you are

  and i think though but you did say

  something really important

  which is it has to do with who defines

  success

  in a model like understanding by design

  or backwards design

  largely you start by defining success

  and whoever's at the table when that

  measure of success is defined

  implicitly imparts their bias and

  expectations into the whole experience

  when you then begin to work backwards

  and come for that starting line

  you bring in a lot of times that's when

  the so-called students get involved

  the game's actually kind of already lost

  a little bit it's a little bit over

  the experience has been shaped by

  whoever had a seat at the table at the

  beginning

  whereas with a rhizomatic pedagogy

  who has a seat at the table is changing

  moment by moment to define success

  and that's why i think it's a more

  inclusive approach

  and it's harder to define because it

  literally is being defined moment by

  moment

  and that is an uncomfortable place to be

  in if you like to have that

  comfort comfort for you comes from

  really clear expectations

  and having that road map that here i am

  today and there i'll be tomorrow

  not to say that that comfort isn't part

  of rhizomatic learning

  it's just not the whole story you know

  what you said there too place a lot of

  trust on

  in yourself a lot of confidence in

  taking and understanding what's

  happening in that moment

  there's an intuitive sense that's

  required in rhizomatic pedagogy or even

  just like

  living rhizomatically to where i think

  by virtue of cooling or like the nature

  of it is

  in essence to quiet that intuition it's

  that this

  expertise lives outside of you you know

  you go to a training or you look at

  things like udl

  because that's where the trust lies and

  if rhizomatics is based on creating

  uncertainty

  just like you said john that's a really

  bad business model like

  nor is it how we've been schooled to

  think about

  you know expertise or even being an

  academic

  or teaching and education in general

  isn't necessarily being open to

  what you don't know it's about having

  this fixed and determined way

  of seeing that space and i think

  people view uncertainty with

  stress and that's like part of it too

  versus uncertainty being a place of

  possibility and multitudes

  and excitement and it takes a lot of

  time

  to be more inclined to thinking about

  this of multitudes of possibility

  versus oh my gosh i'm gonna do this

  wrong or wonder if they don't like me or

  whatever

  i kind of wanted to bring up a point in

  opposition to jared's framing of the

  question

  that i don't think that rhizomatic

  learning is a rare

  approach i think a lot of people come to

  a rhizomatic approach

  naturally in their lives because it's

  sort of like

  how a lot of parts of people's lives

  work where you

  stumble upon discoveries and you learn

  about yourself through experience

  this is the fight i promised and i think

  naming that experience

  for me it clicked really nicely where i

  was like oh this is the name for the

  thing that i'm trying to

  bring to the classroom that's based on

  my experiences in online community

  learning things

  or when people are living in not all my

  community but any kind of community

  where you have this like

  network of connections and you're

  learning things in sort of an

  unstructured way and discovering as you

  go

  instead of coming in with set goals i

  think that's

  common human experience but it does go

  in direct opposition to many of the

  values of our education

  system which values replicability a lot

  of times it values predictability

  i would say maybe it doesn't value

  teachers

  following rather than leading and

  rhizomatic

  learning and pedagogy does value those

  things it brings me back to

  what catherine was saying about nomads

  like sort of an oppositional stance

  inherently because you're trying to

  de-territorialize

  the territory of the state and these

  like set goals and these set

  structures of curriculum or sequences or

  the school day

  the schedule the subject areas all these

  different arbitrary

  categorizations resomatics is about

  breaking those open

  which is hard because you know the state

  might bite back

  a little bit there's like so much

  paradox in that too like i'm thinking of

  udl

  being used so frequently in the like the

  worlds of accessibility right how do we

  make sure that this is an accessible

  design and lesson plan and in a lot of

  ways what we discuss is accessibility is

  like a narrowed watered-down

  really striated way of explaining and

  talking about the learning process

  that we think is making it more

  accessible because then

  the other side of that the assumption of

  that is that students who might need

  or even adults right any of us who might

  need additional accessibility

  considerations

  can't participate in this intuitive

  space

  where what they're offering is what we

  build upon

  so we have to build the structure we

  assume to be

  accessible but is removed from

  this like embodied space of who people

  are and like katie i love what you said

  about

  you know people in the seats are

  predetermined versus the other way

  around

  too and how you structure this it's i

  guess this is the other thing too when

  you're thinking rhizomatically you learn

  that you like hate everything

  like everything is not good enough ever

  right like you're just disgusted

  like i never looked at udl with such

  hate before until right now

  where it's like you have to burn

  everything down you know it's i don't

  know

  i was going to say john i appreciate you

  challenging and reframing

  the question i wholeheartedly

  acknowledge

  that the informal learning that occurs

  outside of

  spaces generally speaking is rhizomatic

  in nature like

  if i want to learn a new thing like i'm

  learning japanese

  i don't go and look at what are the

  standards for japanese language course

  in high school like

  that is the last thing i'm going to look

  at i'm going to start looking at like

  maybe a book or an app or like

  all these other things youtubers etc and

  the approach is

  like 100 up to me i don't have somebody

  guiding me step by step through

  something necessarily i can go in any

  direction i want to like

  i want to learn a subset of the language

  compared to another like if i want to

  learn about words about cooking versus

  words about direction versus words about

  anime etc like

  there are many directions i can go into

  it but when it comes to formalized

  spaces

  i would going back to the question say

  that it is still a backwards design

  approach and what's interesting is i

  think as catherine that said it like

  academia is not necessarily designed

  this way but it wasn't until the

  doctorate when

  finally it became like rhizomatic like

  up until then it was largely sequential

  like everybody needs to learn the same

  thing be tested on the same thing etc

  and in my master's like started to

  branch out like what do you want to

  learn but then in the doctor it's okay

  what don't we know and what can you

  study and what do you want to learn more

  about et cetera

  so it's interesting that it waits that

  long until we actually get into this

  more rhizomatic approach like you have

  to suffer through like 20 some odd years

  of schooling

  until it actually starts to model more

  of the informal learning that occurs

  outside of that this actually takes you

  to a great

  point and yes uh i think it is a vast

  oversimplification to say that everyone

  already knows how to deal with medical

  learning because it's not exactly

  quite that simple but you're right that

  we do wait until

  the highest possible level of education

  to

  fully commit to this rhizomatic model 99

  of people who receive public education

  never end up getting there

  that's a made-up stat i don't actually

  know what the percentage of people who

  have gish phds are but it's a vast vast

  minority of people getting phds versus

  who participate in public education and

  i would say also i'm a high school

  teacher

  at my district i'm sure in other

  districts around the country

  if you're going to try to find

  rhizomatic learning in your school

  you're a lot more likely to find it in

  like an ap bio class

  or an ap english class or an ap

  government class where students are

  being asked to

  look think about the world what's

  interesting about government what can

  you learn about government how can you

  apply

  these concepts to your life like that's

  more rhizomatic than something you might

  find in a remedial math class

  where there's this tight sequence we're

  trying to get kids through this tunnel

  so that they can get to the other side

  right

  one of my like passions as a teacher is

  asking

  why do we reserve rhizomatic learning

  for students who are bearing privilege

  and we use these highly sequenced models

  for students

  who are by the standards of our system

  needing more help more support

  and really what ends up happening we

  have all these side effects of like okay

  if i want to tightly sequence model

  where i have homework and strict

  attendance and i have to do all these

  different kinds of like really tight

  requirements and

  if i mess it up i might fail the class

  and that's policing that's policing

  students behavior

  and the system is set up to police

  students who are marginalized across all

  of these different demographic strata

  and teachers that's policing teachers

  that's not yeah there's no interesting

  teachers or investing in teachers

  how do we help teachers through this

  discomfort though so like

  there has been decades if not centuries

  of well the kind of learning that occurs

  outside of school is not

  real learning it is not the important

  learning what occurs in this building is

  the learning that you should focus on

  and pay attention to

  so how do we help teachers apply these

  more informal or

  natural learning processes in a context

  where it has kind of been beaten out of

  teachers i think so much of that is

  helping teachers realize that they've

  been schooled really hard

  sometimes in the certain ways that they

  feel like they have to behave

  in the classroom and what that looks

  like like i'm you know staring at my

  window right now this little say speedy

  and phoebes are funny they're like kind

  of they're not the smallest of birds

  they're kind of medium-sized

  they find i would not choose this twig

  if i had the body weight like i know

  what kind of twigs i would choose to

  land on

  in my certain state here and i feel like

  that bird does not know how big it is

  for the twigs that it

  sits on right which sounds like crazy to

  bring this in

  but like as a teacher why wouldn't you

  want your

  student to like look out the window and

  be like that's a big bird choosing a not

  a big twig

  you know what goes into that and like

  think about you know the math and

  dynamics and perception and bodily

  like these expectations that we have how

  big an object is you read the room you

  think about

  all of these things could be brought in

  by being like man that's

  really i'm really distracted by i'm

  compelled by it you know and it makes me

  ask all these questions about the world

  and like

  if i was a teacher and i feel like

  compelled to be in a certain way

  in a classroom space i would feel shamed

  about like looking out my window and

  being distracted by a save

  phoebe choosing a twig that does not

  support its bird weight

  you know you know risomatics talks about

  these points of rupture

  right and especially me being in teacher

  ed and speaking to pre-service teachers

  it's how do you have that point of

  rupture where new growth

  occurs or the rhizome is rerouted in

  ways because you've

  interrogated and challenged these

  traditional ways of being in school

  to the point where that's now kind of

  something you interrogate with your kids

  too

  like can you believe the standard they

  want you to do this how narrow is this

  like what are all these other things

  that you so you like bring them into

  that fun joyful spontaneous space

  as well i love that description so much

  another thing is the idea that you have

  to

  remake your whole community around this

  when teachers hear someone talk about

  this they're like oh my gosh you're

  telling me to reinvent the wheel

  i can't do that i'm just one person and

  that's not at all

  the idea it's a pedagogical approach and

  your whole school could commit to it

  or you can commit to it in your

  classroom and the beauty of the metaphor

  of the rhizome for this like

  the rhizome is just a metaphor for what

  we're talking about if you think about

  rhizomes in the world

  they are this like growing encroaching

  almost

  structure that like goes everywhere no

  center no

  organizing principle just grow out

  rupture out of the space you're in

  and i think that's a really beautiful

  way of thinking about teaching

  rhizomatically too

  you can start in this small space and

  maybe one year it's just like okay

  i'm comfortable with project-based

  learning what would project-based

  learning be like if i try to

  think about it as rhizomatic and

  decentralized rather than this like

  tight standards-oriented thing what

  would that be like

  and you just do it once you're like hmm

  i learned a lot from that maybe next

  year i do like two projects and it like

  grows a little bit

  and year to year you kind of figure out

  how to fill the space you're in

  and eventually hopefully what happens is

  you start to rupture out of that space

  because it's just the nature of being a

  nomadic learner

  when you reach those boundaries you're

  like i gotta get past that i can go

  beyond that these boundaries are not

  gonna hold back my learning

  hopefully that's where you get that

  would be my advice for someone who's

  like oh my gosh

  this sounds like a big ask you know well

  speaking of investing in teachers

  to as these rhizomatic

  support people i think that educators

  should get

  big wild interesting sabbaticals that

  are many months long

  and each district can figure out a plan

  that works well for the community

  but you know i'd like to see you know

  teachers would get to choose

  i want to spend a year in southern

  california

  i want to spend a year in mumbai india i

  want to spend

  two years traveling to four schools and

  four forests

  i want there to be some teacher agency

  and time to go explore the world and

  then come back to the classroom

  what i wish i could have had i was a

  person that you know

  went to become a teacher and went to

  undergrad

  became early childhood a major started

  teaching did a master's degree in school

  leadership

  kept teaching and along the way was

  starting to learn how big the world

  is and i wanted to reach more kids and

  more teachers

  in a way that being in my current my

  local school

  wasn't helping me to grow in the ways i

  felt i could grow

  and help more kids so i actually left

  the classroom for a position

  that would allow me to work with kids

  and teachers all over the world

  and it wasn't easy in the 11th hour of

  making this decision i was negotiating

  with my superintendent and my future

  boss to say

  can i work 50 of the time here and 50 of

  the time there

  i was torn and i wanted to be in both

  places and i know i'm not alone

  i know there are many teachers that want

  these range of experiences

  this isn't about professional

  development yes and just as important as

  mental health

  to have these experiences to step away

  from the day-to-day

  see something new experience something

  new and come back into the so-called

  classroom with

  with something new which is unexpected

  and please

  don't police this i don't want reports

  and essays and quarterly this that and

  the other on these sabbaticals this is

  truly free time

  you have a date you leave and a date you

  come back that's it so if somebody

  were hypothetically to go on some kind

  of a sabbatical

  or just spend some time wanting to learn

  more about resomatic learning because

  this

  podcast as interesting as is it won't be

  enough to convince

  a community like john was saying of

  educators so

  what are some resources or theories or

  philosophies

  or whatever that people could learn more

  through

  that we could potentially guide them

  toward that you could convince other

  people because if somebody's listening

  to this and they're like yeah

  this is great i'm totally on board but

  my colleagues in department a b and c

  probably not on board so how can we help

  them out

  i have one answer and then i'm done and

  it is the best thing you can possibly

  one of the easiest and best and simplest

  most powerful things

  is to find a mentor outside of your

  field

  and piggybacking on that if you want to

  commit to a rhizomatic

  pedagogy or like grow this part of your

  teaching

  the best thing you can do is to nourish

  your creative self and connect that

  creative self with other educators and

  then bring that

  into the classroom because what's

  happening there is you are

  letting something that you may be

  previously regarded as outside of your

  job

  to invade the classroom and grow in that

  space

  that is like full commitment in my mind

  to this rhizomatic

  way of being at least a small scale

  and then hopefully what you're showing

  there is i am

  a creative person and this is how i

  learn

  and you can create a space for students

  to be like what's the creative part of

  you that you want to pull in here

  i don't know that it has to be

  necessarily a convincing thing you don't

  have to convince everyone

  and then go it can be a small iterative

  change

  that grows over time and pulls people in

  one of my favorite ideas

  is this idea of like arts integration

  across computer science that's what the

  thing i'm

  very like passionate about and pulling

  arts teachers into

  a computer science space has so many

  opportunities for students to explore

  these connections in different ways

  and i'm not going to reduce that down to

  well you know we're going to do some if

  statements and then we're going to talk

  about

  song structure and like like that seems

  like so reductive because i am a

  musician and i am a programmer and i

  know how deep and broad these things are

  so can we set up a environment for

  students to discover that broadness in

  their own way

  i hope that made sense i don't know if

  it fully answered your question

  resources though

  concrete resources look for rhizomatic

  stuff in your life

  if i'm going to plug like curricular

  stuff this seems a little bit

  antithetical to the idea of rhizomatics

  but

  looking at jared's boot up stuff that's

  designed

  and explicitly constructed such that

  students are

  traveling across all these resources and

  videos and projects

  in an unstructured self-directed way

  that's huge that's an amazing

  environment or like the google

  cs first curriculum where the students

  can travel across these different

  projects discovering different things

  and

  and making creative choices like those

  are some great resources to start if you

  look at them as if it was a rhizomatic

  field and not look at it for a sequence

  if you pull up those resources and

  you're like hmm this is great i can have

  our students do this then this then this

  then this and then we will learn

  everything we need to know

  you're kind of missing the boat a little

  bit you have to look at this

  as a holistic piece of like an

  environment an ecosystem and say

  what can my students discover about this

  that i don't already know that i don't

  have planned

  how can i help them scaffold that kind

  of similar to what

  john and katie just said a lot of that

  is being open to resources that

  seemingly don't have anything to do with

  your task at hand i think some of my

  early

  entry into all of this thinking were

  books like daniel quinn's

  ishmael and my ishmael pretty much all

  of margaret wheatley's work

  i think adrian marie brown and like a

  lot of her work and how she sees

  emergence alan watts i mean anything

  that he's

  written this way of

  abandoning these old concepts that don't

  offer us

  resources at this new task at hand so i

  think i've furthered my rhizomatic

  thinking by

  being open to bodies of scholarship

  so i was like watching batman begins the

  christopher nolan one

  in the league of shadows and i'm gonna

  forget all of the the names of this

  now but he's like about to graduate and

  he has to kill

  a prisoner the head guy is like you have

  to kill him

  like your compassion is what's going to

  like essentially be your demise

  and he's like my compassion is what

  separates me from

  this other body of like bad guys as you

  call it and i'm watching that and it's

  like that's

  teacher education it's like being in

  that moment

  of saying like i have to do these dumb

  tests or

  curriculum that is symbolically violent

  to black and brown children because they

  don't see themselves in it and i'm gonna

  have to choose between

  killing this bad guy and being part of

  this elite league

  of shadows group i'm doing a terrible

  job of painting the parallel here

  but i think the rhizomatics in this is

  being so

  open to the way that all of this is

  interconnected and mutually dependent

  i think in the actual body of

  scholarship and and rhizo analysis

  the folding refolding unfolding like

  this idea that all of this

  is just at some point again connected to

  the way that you're seeing the world

  you read a tupac lyric too we're talking

  about

  in his he's a gold book of all of his

  not all of his but a lot of his

  lyrics and poetry and you know he's

  talking about being a criminal and what

  it means to be a criminal and i think

  looking at his perspective you begin to

  understand

  what we usually just take at firsthand

  value like oh he's a gangster and

  he's violent and he's misogynistic which

  is fair

  it's just to say that like you can look

  out the window you can be on a phone

  call here you can step outside and

  it's being open to and attuned that

  everything is super connected and it's

  constantly influencing who you are and

  the decisions that you're making

  so even a question of like oh i want to

  practice rhizomatics where should i go

  to

  that and of itself is it almost a dead

  end question because it's like where are

  you calling like your

  idea of having an artistic nourishing

  hobby

  is filling that space as well so anyway

  so hypothetically if we're in a school

  and we get everybody

  all the teachers on board what are you

  afraid that people are going to

  misunderstand about rhizomatic learning

  and to kind of throw out some different

  stakeholders to think through

  like other teachers or even students who

  did not start with rhizomatic learning

  from day one

  or what about admin who are like new to

  this and who are used to more

  formalized sequence to learning or even

  what about parents

  who are like well that's not how i

  learned i think the best we can ever do

  if we have an idea that we want to help

  someone to think about differently

  is just share their space and

  not leading not even guiding so and then

  for example

  you know parent this isn't how i learned

  administrator how will i measure this

  co-teacher they're going to make me look

  bad

  it's about humility it's about grace

  it's about

  you know you're not riding around with a

  trumpet trying to shout

  rhizome rhizome rhizome it's actually

  just about showing and not telling

  is part of the mystery you're not trying

  to present this path

  you're just living it and i think people

  are attracted to

  humility they're attracted to

  authenticity and they feel when

  something's different

  and when they begin to themselves ask

  the question

  then you will have an answer to that

  question

  if the power dynamics in your mind or

  how will i convince how will i

  change with something like this there's

  no such thing as an overnight change

  first of all the danger with overnight

  changes is they can often change

  back and so quick changes can quickly

  change in either direction

  this really is an ecosystem model of

  living together sharing space

  together meeting people where they are

  and knowing that

  even in your own practice it takes lots

  and lots of time and to give other

  people lots and lots of time to

  get to a place where they are asking

  questions that's the real

  art here i think one of the biggest

  misconceptions that i hear from teachers

  when i talk about this stuff

  is oh you're saying that i don't help

  students

  they have to do everything on their own

  because it's rhizomatic and they have to

  find their path

  some teachers will say that sort of

  sarcastically like you're just they're

  in the room and they're you're they're

  doing whatever they want and i'm like

  well you know

  that's a little bit of a disingenuous

  way of describing what's going on

  it's not as if in the classroom you have

  to say

  well you know it's rhizomatic learning

  so you gotta figure it out you know like

  this is your path and you're gonna chart

  your own path and i can't help you

  because then that would be oppressing

  you

  so like here i'm just gonna step back

  struggle

  and that's not how i feel about it and i

  really feel like

  rhizomatic pedagogy is partially about

  embracing

  a collage a mosaic of tools at your

  disposal

  and opening yourself up to pedagogical

  de-centeredness and trying to avoid an

  ideological commitment

  to sequence or to inquiry or to any of

  these things

  it's about like let's our learning is

  situated in the classroom

  student what do you need right now to

  achieve your goals

  and i'm going to use my best knowledge

  as a teacher to help lead them to

  further success based on what i know

  and they're going to do their best to

  help communicate and

  support the learning community it's not

  as if we're just

  like like katie said we're not naked

  running around in the woods you know

  i mean i really think that when you have

  embraced rhizomatic learning you offer

  the scaffold

  if the scaffold is useful there's this

  metaphor that we haven't touched too

  much yet but that i really love is

  the idea of mapping a rhizome a map of a

  rhizome is not rhizomatic

  because you've set in stone what you

  observed so a map

  can be like a sequence right you take

  this body of learning and knowledge and

  all these things and then you map it out

  and you provide the sequence and you've

  traced one possible path through this

  territory

  and there doesn't need to be a

  commitment to that you can find a

  different path

  but there also doesn't need to be a lack

  of

  well-worn beautiful trails for students

  to walk themselves down

  a scaffold that i provide for students

  in my classroom is a literal

  map of concepts and resources and

  examples and all sorts of things

  and they can trace my path through it

  like hey here's a bunch of resources

  that were really useful to me when i was

  building a synthesizer and

  if i'm teaching kids how to code like

  they might be building synthesizers and

  they can trace my path

  that's great and honestly that feels

  pretty safe to me

  because i know that at least they're

  going to get somewhere but then what i'm

  always

  asking students is like what's not

  mapped here what do you not see on this

  map yet what territories can we explore

  is there empty space between these

  things that we know about

  that i know about that we can show is

  there anything in your life that doesn't

  appear on my map that we can add

  we put it in context where do you think

  things are i don't think that that's an

  ideologically pure rhizomatic

  approach but i also think that delusion

  guateri's

  text about rhizomes they are careful to

  say that the rhizome isn't

  purely decentralized and if you commit

  to that and you live that fully

  there's a chance you'll lose your mind

  and you will you're not going to be able

  to come back from that

  and i sort of think that it's easy to

  find yourself at sea

  if you aren't using all the tools that

  you have as students teachers in a

  learning community i hope that makes

  sense

  feel free to challenge me on that katie

  and catherine but

  a few things came to mind one was the

  quote the map is not the territory

  i have no idea who said that quote but

  you have these concepts you have these

  tools that you utilize to understand the

  reality that you're existing in

  and rhizomatically you're thinking and

  understanding are these concepts are

  these tools

  situated for the task at hand and if

  they're not you find a new one if they

  are you're running with it until it

  doesn't

  it's not useful for you anymore you

  can't just be a full-on

  nomad right you can't just only think in

  the rhizome

  metaphor as you way more eloquently

  described it

  the nomad relies on the state right this

  idea that

  there has to be these two roles and it's

  not even just being purely the nomad or

  purely the state the negotiation is how

  the state and the nomad

  interact that becomes the work that

  becomes like this more

  obvious way of engaging in

  this different way of thinking which i

  continue to feel

  it's this intuitive way of thinking it's

  very much your heart mind-centered

  way of being in a shared space with

  students or colleagues or whomever

  and it's encouraging your students to be

  in a similar space

  too and i loved your questions john

  about that all kind of center around

  like

  what's the not knowing that's going on

  and who is doing the knowing in the

  space

  and so for colleagues who are saying oh

  you're just a body in the room while

  your kids

  flounder but that's also not true either

  they're engaged in spontaneity and joy

  and all of these things as well you just

  don't feel like you have to know

  in front of kids for eight hours a day

  which is exhausting

  which we can get back to teachers also

  needing a sabbatical

  to have to like smooth over

  the effort and the stress and all of

  that that goes into having to be

  the authoritarian knower in front of

  kids so

  there's freedom there for both students

  and teachers

  i think it does it returns to this

  intuitive more ecological

  more adaptive flexible way that we were

  designed originally to move through this

  world but

  you forgot you were talking about how

  the territory of rhizomatic learning the

  map of rhizomatic learning how the map

  isn't

  necessarily representative of the

  territory so i'm curious

  what has not been mapped so far in this

  discussion what have we not chatted

  about

  that you think is important for other

  people to know about i can definitely

  say that one of the things that i think

  is sort of lacking

  in this field the field of arizona

  learning the territory rhizomatic

  learning

  are just a bunch of examples of teachers

  trying to do it

  in public and naming it as such because

  we have a lot of academic perspectives

  on this stuff

  and i know a lot of teachers personally

  who are doing this kind of thing but

  we're not really that good at naming

  what this is and giving people examples

  of how to embody

  or how other people embody these things

  not as a

  as a model to replicate but as a map

  that people can trace

  or explore beyond same sorts of

  scaffolds i provide for my students

  i think teachers need that same sort of

  thing there are examples of that out

  there but i think

  the more the better i just want to say a

  tiny thing about the word tracing

  because it's come up many times

  throughout this conversation and i wish

  i would have brought my tracing pad with

  me because

  i've recently been sewing a lot of

  little animals and dolls

  and the reason i'm learning how to

  sculpt felt is because i trace

  other people's patterns and build really

  complex felt

  doll things from other people's patterns

  and

  from that process of tracing and

  building that path

  i'm able to think about construction of

  with felt in a new way

  and start to create my own felt dolls

  and so i definitely support tracing

  as a step on the path and in many ways

  it's a great metaphor i'd say that it

  seems like there might be a big barrier

  to entry

  in thinking rhizomatically or

  participating in rhizo analysis because

  of the nature of what

  seems to be big burly words and i'm sure

  we've utilized some of them today

  don't write this off as like as you

  speak or being just

  up in the academic stratosphere without

  any kind of understanding of what this

  looks like in reality

  i guess it's also a product of the

  tracing right the more that you wrestle

  with the scholarly aspects of this and

  think about it the more

  ease that you begin to discuss it as

  such but

  for me it's the only space that you

  really just have to bring your thoughts

  your own intuition the way that you

  want to see the world and currently see

  the world and then that always becomes

  the starting place there's no

  i have to work up to get to this certain

  you know checkpoint and then i can

  really learn about it

  it's being attuned to and open to this

  type of learning so where might people

  go to connect with you in the

  organizations that you work with

  i'm john stapleton you can find me at

  jstapes

  on twitter that is my primary social

  media thing i do not use facebook but

  i'm still on twitter

  i work in virginia and i've also done

  work with

  code virginia which is the cs

  professional development arm of the

  virginia department of education you can

  find

  some stuff there hit me up on twitter

  follow me if you like

  tabletop roleplaying games and

  rhizomatics and

  computer science education i want you to

  say hi you can follow me on twitter

  at bournecast b-o-r-n-c-a-t-h

  and you can visit born ingenuity.com to

  learn about

  me and some of my work my twitter handle

  is

  at katie henry days d-a-y-s

  and you can find me online at

  katydays.com

  and with that that concludes this week's

  panel discussion of the cska podcast

  i really hope you enjoyed listening to

  this panel session as each of the guests

  had a lot of wonderful content that i

  really enjoyed listening to as the

  moderator

  again if you're interested in learning

  more about rhizomatic learning after

  having listened to this panel

  check out the show notes by clicking the

  link in the app you're listening to this

  on or go to jaredlery.com

  and consider sharing the free resources

  with others stay tuned next week for

  another unpacking scholarship episode

  and two weeks from now for another

  interview

  i hope you're having a wonderful week

  and are staying safe

Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode

• Other podcast episodes that were mentioned or are relevant to this episode

  • CS Educator as Dungeon Master with Jon Stapleton

    • In this interview with Jon Stapleton, we discuss metaphors for education and facilitating, the importance of community and navigating inappropriate content online, how programming languages and platforms influence learning, theories and philosophies that inform Jon’s practice, critical code studies, and much more.

  • Educational Aims, Objectives, and Other Aspirations

    • In this episode I unpack Eisner’s (2002) publication titled “Educational aims, objectives, and other aspirations,” which problematizes behavioral education objectives and discuss two alternative approaches.

  • Fostering Intersectional Identities through Rhizomatic Learning

    • In this episode, Jon Stapleton and I read our (2022) publication titled “Fostering intersectional identities through rhizomatic learning,” which uses mapping as a metaphor for individualized learning.

  • How to Get Started with Computer Science Education

    • In this episode I provide a framework for how districts and educators can get started with computer science education for free.

  • micro:bit, Rhizomatic Learning, and CS for Healing with Katie Henry

    • In this interview with Katie Henry, we discuss the micro:bit and the do your :bit challenge, rhizomatic learning, the potential for CS for healing, and much more.

  • Situated Language and Learning with Bryan Brown

    • In this interview Bryan Brown, we discuss the importance of language in education. In particular, we discuss the role of language in teaching and learning, discursive identity, situated language and learning, the importance of representation in education, the role of language on stress, how smartphones and virtual communication platforms (e.g., Zoom) could change learning, and many other topics relevant to CS education and learning.

  • The Centrality of Curriculum and the Function of Standards: The Curriculum is a Mind-altering Device

    • In this episode I unpack Eisner’s (2002) publication titled “The centrality of curriculum and the function of standards: The curriculum is a mind-altering device,” which problematizes curricula and standards by discussing how both can deprofessionalize the field of education.

  • The Apprenticeship of Observation and Computer Science Education

    • In this episode I unpack the impact of an apprenticeship of observation and what computer science educators can do about it.

  • More episodes related to curriculum

  • More episodes related to interest-driven learning

  • More episodes related to pedagogy

  • More episodes related to rhizomatic learning

  • More episodes related to standards

  • More episodes related to theory || philosophy

  • All other episodes

• Read Deleuze and Guattari’s book titled A Thousand Plateaus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia

• More curated resources related to rhizomatic learning

• Resources mentioned in this episode

  • Daniel Quinn’s book Ishmael

  • Daniel Quinn’s book My Ishmael (the follow-up to Ishmael)

  • Margaret J. Weatley’s books

  • Adrienne Maree Brown’s website

  • Alan Watts Organization

• Connect with Catherine

  • Catherine’s Twitter profile

  • Catherine’s website

• Connect with Jon

  • Listen to the previous interview with Jon

  • Jon’s Twitter profile

  • Jon’s website

• Connect with Katie

  • Listen to the previous interview with Katie

  • Katie’s Twitter profile

  • Katie’s website

• Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter

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