Learning at Scale with Kristin Stephens-Martinez

In this interview with Kristin Stephens-Martinez, we discuss learning CS in large classes (e.g., 200+ students), the winding and challenging journey through education and research, recognizing the importance of representation and providing support for underrepresented identities, the benefits of peer instruction, Kristin’s podcast (CS-Ed Podcast), the disconnect between research on education and practice in the classroom, and much more.

• Auto-generated transcript (click to expand)

  Welcome back to another episode of the

  CSK8 podcast my name is jared o'leary

  in this week's episode i'm interviewing

  kristin stevens martinez in our

  discussion we chat about

  learning computer science and large

  classes so for example kristin has

  classes between two and 300 students

  we also discussed the winding and

  challenging journey through education

  and research and how the

  end product looks a lot neater than the

  actual process that was taken

  we discussed recognizing the importance

  of representation and providing support

  for underrepresented identities

  the benefits of peer instruction

  kristen's podcast

  the cs ed podcast the disconnect between

  research on education and practice in

  the classroom

  and so much more in our discussion

  kristin mentions multiple books and

  podcasts and if you go to the show notes

  it has direct links to each one of those

  and you can find those show notes by

  clicking the link in the description or

  by simply going to jaredaler.com and

  clicking on the podcast

  i hope you enjoy this interview and i

  hope you take the time to listen to

  kristin's podcast the cs ed podcast

  so my name is kristen stevens martinez

  and i have a phd from uc berkeley

  and my research is in computer science

  education and so

  the way i define that is i'm interested

  in both

  the learning of computer science as well

  as the using of computer science for

  education

  my interests are mainly in computer

  science introduction so

  the first and second kind of classes

  that you take in computer science

  as well as focusing on how do you

  scale learning and so what i mean by

  that is

  how do you add another student to the

  classroom without affecting the quality

  of the learning that's already happening

  in the classroom a lot of people kind of

  assume small class must equal better

  i want to challenge that assumption by

  actually asking like well

  how do we know like let's actually check

  and let's do some experiments to find

  out

  where this idea of small equals better

  is that actually not true

  and you can potentially take advantage

  of computers take advantage of scale

  to be able to teach more people because

  as a teacher you really want to

  teach as many people that are interested

  in learning and

  we're often feeling so limited by the

  quality of the learning that we want to

  make sure is happening and i just want

  to push

  the envelope a bit more and trying to

  understand how do you help more people

  learn what they want to learn

  so that's my research and then the other

  thing is i am also the host of the csi

  podcast which is a podcast that more

  focuses on higher education computer

  science

  but the main reason why it doesn't cover

  something like csk through 8 or 12 is

  because i don't know anything about that

  space and so i didn't want to step on

  any toes or risk like making claims that

  made no sense so that's why i'm more

  focused

  that podcast on computer science higher

  education in college

  but it's not like i purposely omitted

  that

  area of css so i'm curious

  what are some of the perceived benefits

  of working in small groups

  and how do you incorporate some of those

  in like large scale classes

  so probably the biggest one that people

  always think of

  first i suspect is the personalization

  aspect of things

  the classic two sigma paper where

  if you are in a regular classroom you

  perform a certain amount

  and then if you had like a small group

  or something i think the paper basically

  goes

  if you had a tutor like every single

  person had tutor they would perform two

  sigma like two standard deviations

  better than if they were in a normal

  classroom i think it's the classic paper

  i think the paper is from like

  i don't remember maybe the 80s or

  something it's actually pretty old paper

  at this point

  and i think that's the first thing

  people think of where they're like

  if it's a smaller classroom that means

  that the teacher can get to really get

  to know every single student

  and then on top of that they can

  personalize the learning much more for

  that student

  and in some ways i agree that's true and

  it could be

  that for a specific student they really

  do

  need that personalized attention from a

  specific teacher and they develop that

  relationship with that teacher

  to really be able to get to the learning

  that they want to get at which i think

  is perfectly fine

  the thing that i bulk at is assuming

  that that must be better and is always

  better than any other circumstance

  right i mainly teach introductory

  computer science classes

  at duke university should i mention that

  too i am a

  assistant professor of the practice at

  duke university

  in my introductory computer science

  class the way that i

  try and help my students have more

  personalized interactions

  so the class has two to 300 students

  but they have small labs which are at

  most 25 students

  and those labs are run by two tas so

  it's a pair of tas together

  that run and teach 25 students and so

  that's

  more where some of that one-on-one

  interaction is going to happen

  they are also encouraged to work in

  groups in those labs so they get some

  other personalization

  by talking to their peers in lecture

  which is where i get all of them

  i do a lot of active learning in my

  class and so when i say active learning

  that means things like

  think pair share where i ask a question

  and i ask the students first think about

  what you think the answer is and i want

  you to turn to your neighbor and talk to

  your neighbor what you think the answer

  is

  another one would be peer instruction

  where i pose a question and they have to

  actually answer the question it's the

  google form so they have to go to the

  google form and like

  punch in their username and then

  answer the various questions and hit

  submit and then i take a look at

  the how the students did and usually

  they don't do so

  great on the forum so like clearly

  they've fallen for the

  wrong answers and so they tell the

  students turn to

  your neighbor and discuss the answers

  and since basically all undergrads i

  feel like are competitive i

  sometimes tell them try to convince your

  neighbor you're right

  which usually gets them to start talking

  a bit more and there actually is a bunch

  of literature

  generally in some literature only in

  computer science that shows

  that this discussion will help students

  get to the right answer

  it's more likely to happen if at least

  one person in the group does have the

  right answer

  but it still is beneficial to a certain

  extent even if

  neither of the students have the right

  answer sometimes i try and prompt the

  students by asking like if you already

  come to a conclusion now i want you to

  also discuss why is the right answer

  right why the wrong answer is wrong

  just to try and get them to keep

  discussing and potentially for

  the group that actually are on the wrong

  answer to realize that they're on the

  wrong answer

  and the reason why i call that

  personalization

  is because every single student is

  having a personalized conversation with

  someone else

  in the ideal world of course it would be

  great if they had a conversation

  personalized with me

  but at the same time potentially not

  because

  i am an expert in my field and i suffer

  expert's fallacy just like every expert

  would suffer under an expert's fallacy

  is this idea

  where you have forgotten what it is like

  to be a novice

  if you're an expert and so that means

  you have forgotten

  what a novice is likely to struggle with

  you've forgotten what is it like to

  struggle in a specific way

  when you're trying to master a concept

  and on top of that there are many

  different ways this office can

  struggle with a different concept or a

  difficult concept

  and what is beneficial for having a ta

  which is also an undergrad or a peer

  right in your classroom

  is they are novice with you and so they

  also are more likely to understand

  what you're not getting because they

  just potentially just went through it

  and so that's one way i bring

  personalization into my class despite it

  being a very large class

  by taking advantage of peers to talk to

  each other and that scales as the class

  gets bigger because they're just more

  peers that people can talk to

  well i don't scale because i am one

  person among two to 300 students

  like i tell my students sometimes

  they're like don't rely on me go find a

  friend there are 300 people in this

  class

  i'm sure you can find a friend so

  they're able to share with each other

  their understandings how do you

  personalize the assignments in those

  large classes though this assignments

  unfortunately right now

  those are not very well personalized and

  that honestly is because of

  the logistics of grading most

  personalized one that we have

  is we have an assignment called the

  turtle assignment and so a turtle

  is basically a drawing program where you

  can draw

  whatever you want and you have a little

  turtle that's like the pen you put the

  pen

  down you draw whatever you want you can

  pick the pen up and move it around and

  draw and so for the turtle assignment we

  tell them

  draw whatever you want it just needs to

  have

  two colors and three shapes something

  like that

  and so that gives students a lot more

  creativity that they can do i've seen

  students do super simple things

  and i've seen students do extremely

  complicated things because they just got

  super into the assignment right and it

  just was a case of like

  you can do whatever you want as long as

  you fulfill these simple criteria

  for us it also we have extra pieces to

  so it's like you know

  you have to write this function that

  draws this thing now write the code that

  will call this function 10 times and

  draw it 10 times across the screen like

  trying to get them to get to certain

  aspects and so when we write unit tests

  for that

  it's easy to write unit tests for

  certain parts of that

  and then i have a group of undergrad tas

  whose job basically is just to grade

  those things

  and so they're like downloading code and

  running it locally and like doing this

  over and over again to like check to see

  are there three colors are there two

  shapes okay

  you get full credit for this piece so

  that's kind of unfortunately the closest

  thing i have right now to

  personalization in my

  class and some of the other things that

  i'm toying with

  are things like it's not really on

  maybe the production aspect of what the

  student is doing but i've been thinking

  more about metacognition

  and scaffolding things like time

  management for students

  so i'm just currently reading a paper

  that

  did three different interventions to

  help students with time management

  two did not work and one worked and the

  one that worked

  was the emails that they emailed

  students reminding them

  you should probably get by you should be

  probably at this point in the project

  and if you're not there's a problem and

  you now try and like

  catch up because everyone else in the

  class is like you are here and the class

  is here you probably need to

  to work on things a little bit more i'm

  only about halfway through the paper

  though i don't exactly

  know what they said but they basically

  like the email was the only thing that

  really helped

  students to turn things in sooner and on

  time

  and like actually get stuff done and

  pass more tests and that kind of thing

  so i think that's more what i'm

  currently toying with with

  personalization

  of trying to figure out how to help my

  students

  with getting stuff done on time and

  thinking through how they can learn the

  content

  in a more almost like time effective

  manner

  i'm wondering if you could just kind of

  thinking out loud if you were to work

  with another colleague either at duke or

  somewhere else and be like okay we're

  both or all of us are doing a unit on i

  don't know conditionals

  just throwing it out there i'm going to

  create an assignment

  that requires students to write code

  that's like

  create a game where if you score a point

  this happens if you get hit by an enemy

  you lose a

  point or a colleague could be like okay

  we're going to create a choose your own

  adventure so if the user chooses this

  it goes into this part of the story and

  it branches out otherwise if they choose

  this other thing what is other thing

  or like just different assignment

  variations on

  whatever the topic is in this case

  conditionals if you could all kind of

  like combine that and say

  here are like five assignments that are

  all the same thing

  and it's used across like you and four

  other colleagues

  then is that a way that could be

  personalized so you're like your tas

  like one ta would be assigned to the

  first one and then

  another ta would be assigned to the

  second one and so that way students have

  some sense of choice

  and can kind of pick projects that are

  more relevant to what they want to do

  and then still use and understand the

  concepts

  in your class while not making it so you

  have to develop five different tests and

  whatnot

  so there's a couple of thoughts that

  come to mind for that so besides

  assignments we also have problem sets

  so it's like implement this function and

  usually

  what we do is like we give them six to

  seven

  and they only need to implement five so

  they can kind of choose whichever ones

  they wanna do

  with maybe a couple required to make

  sure they like do at least one set

  problem do this one do at least one

  problem in dictionaries

  the other thought i had is this is very

  much a moment that i feel shows the

  difference between

  higher education and k-12 because

  for us i'm the only one teaching intro

  cs

  no one else is teaching intro cs at my

  university

  like there are other ones who will teach

  it at a different semester

  but i'm the only one teaching it this

  semester and we kind of pass the

  curriculum along

  so it's the same assignment almost

  regardless of what semester and who is

  teaching it

  if i wanted to do this idea of asking

  other people like what

  projects do you do for checking testing

  these concepts

  i'd have to go outside to another

  university and ask them like what

  assignments do you have for

  testing these things asm is taking on

  an existing project and the name is

  escaping me right now

  but brianna morrison and

  michelle craig made this project

  where people could potentially submit

  their assignments like they would submit

  to a conference or something

  and then make those assignments

  available to anyone who wanted them

  after they go through a peer review

  basically i think the purpose of

  michelle and brianna's project

  was to make it so that more people could

  basically do a nifty assignment like

  more people could submit to this and

  it'd be peer-reviewed and

  anyone could use them and that kind of

  thing with a certain like probably level

  of rigor for both unit tests

  and what you kind of get when you

  download the assignment and be able to

  like deploy it in your class

  so that that's one avenue that i could

  think of

  i don't know how many people have

  submitted to that particular website

  though

  yeah and for context when i was in the

  k8 space

  i was the only computer science teacher

  in my school and then when i taught

  general music and band like i was the

  only band director i was the only

  general music person

  at most of my schools so like we had

  this issue

  as well where it's like okay i'm the

  only one doing this thing how do i

  communicate with people across the

  district or elsewhere and then when i

  was teaching like undergrad and graduate

  courses

  is the same thing like i just

  collaborated with somebody in toronto

  about how to create like a coding and

  music unit

  for their music technology class and so

  like

  having to reach out and do that it was

  just kind of like one thing that kind of

  came to mind

  yeah i just like when you said like talk

  to the other teachers for other

  assignments it's like but no one else

  has other assignments

  unless i go outside my university right

  we use the same assignment with like

  mild tweaks every semester

  to prevent cheating though i'm currently

  reading a book on grading

  equitable grading or grading for

  equality i can't remember exactly what

  the title is anymore

  and i'm more and more suspicious of like

  the processes we go through to

  try and prevent cheating and trying to

  like

  think through what would be a better way

  but

  admittedly like i'm only maybe a quarter

  of the book

  so part of me is still cynical about

  the idea of like figuring out ways that

  like students will learn because they

  want to learn and i'm like

  yeah some of them will i was one of them

  but like most students aren't me

  yeah lots of things to consider when

  designing stuff educational experiences

  whatnot

  i'm curious what's the story how did you

  get to computer science education

  if you were to write a book about your

  entire story like what would the chapter

  titles be definitely one would be

  getting into computer science

  and then the next one would be going to

  grad school

  and then probably actually the the cse

  one would be a separate chapter

  just because each of them has a distinct

  kind of reason it happened or

  it would be all be like at least

  subsections within a single chapter

  so i got into computer science purely by

  accident which is one reason why i don't

  think the story is good

  i will get into why i think it's a bad

  story in a minute

  so when i was in high school

  i finished my freshman year my first

  year of high school

  in illinois and then my parents moved to

  maryland

  illinois requires three and a half years

  of physical education

  maryland requires half a year of

  physical education

  and so when i arrived at maryland i

  suddenly had this extra period in high

  school that i had to like fill

  i was like what do i do and my parents

  happened to move

  to one of the richest counties in the

  country

  so that meant that my high school which

  was technically

  the ghetto high school in the county the

  ghetto high school

  air quotes kind of hard to be ghetto

  when you're also in the richest county

  in the country

  had a computer science teacher and so i

  had full-blown computer science classes

  in that high school

  a whole three sequence and when i was

  looking at the options

  for signing up for classes i was like

  well i saw the computer science class

  and i was like well

  i like computers i like programming the

  vcr

  which kind of dates me but you know i

  like programming the views i'll try this

  class

  and then i was like this is awesome i'm

  never looking back

  this is so cool i want to do this and i

  took all of the classes

  i took ap computer science all of it and

  the reason i don't think that's a good

  story is because i got lucky

  i don't like that i don't like the fact

  that i had to get lucky

  to find in computer science i honestly

  have no idea where i would be if my

  parents had not moved

  like i just had no clue what would have

  happened in some ways it's a tragedy

  if someone cannot find what they're

  interested in

  if it wasn't for luck and so i think one

  of the things that kind of drives me

  actually for computer science education

  is i want to help as many people as i

  can

  at least find out if computer science is

  what they want to do

  because if someone would have taken that

  opportunity if they knew it existed

  but they never came across it that's a

  tragedy

  so that's why i don't think my story is

  a good one

  because it required luck and i want to

  try my hardest to try and figure out

  ways

  to make sure that it's not luck that

  gets someone into this field

  or get someone into finding what they

  are interested in doing so is that

  reflection

  on the luck that led to your interest in

  computer science why you went into

  computer science education to try and

  help make it so people didn't have to

  rely on luck to try and like expand it

  in k-12 offerings or university

  offerings

  so i think that's one of my motivators

  but it's not

  the reason why i find computer science

  education interesting

  i've actually always been interested

  in the process of learning and

  psychology and all of that i am

  a learning nerd i am unapologetic about

  that like

  i watch science youtube for fun yep

  like and i will tweet about it and i

  will tell people like

  random things like i just learned this

  cool thing from this comedian

  mathematician

  and it's like what's your favorite mega

  number like i love this

  like that's literally what i'm watching

  right before bed after the baby's gone

  to sleep

  i message a friend by email she's a math

  professor and i like

  messages like this is such a cool note

  video this is so funny

  i'm like oh i'm such a nerd i'm such a

  learning nerd and i'm perfectly fine

  with that distinction

  so the reason i got into csd is more

  because

  the process of learning and all of that

  is very fascinating to me

  which in some ways is hilarious because

  i also like computers because they're

  not messy like humans are

  so i kind of have this like tension in

  myself where i'm like computers are nice

  and logical they do exactly what you

  tell them to do

  not necessarily what you want them to do

  but at least they do exactly what you

  tell them to do

  [Music]

  and then humans are super messy but

  they're fascinating and complicated and

  they do weird things

  not what you expect so like after i

  started computer science

  in college i got into computer

  networking

  and so networking was interesting to me

  because

  the internet works shockingly well

  despite the fact that it's kind of held

  together by chewing gum and duct tape

  and so this like simple rules

  complex behavior was very interesting to

  me and so in some ways i'm not surprised

  now that i'm looking back

  that i found that interesting because i

  was like computers being

  simple and straightforward is

  interesting plus you get this complex

  behavior

  and i like complex behavior so i kind of

  like humans at the same time

  it's not surprising to me that that

  progression happened one reason why i

  don't think it's quite a good story is

  because when you look at my cv my resume

  you see like it looks like such a happy

  story where like oh she found cs in high

  school

  and then she got all of her degrees in

  computer science and now she is a

  professor in computer science

  and it looks like such a normal

  transition and flow

  and if a student

  saw just my cv they're like oh she had

  it together from the gekko

  like from the beginning she knew exactly

  what she was doing and i'm like hell no

  i had no idea what i was doing i want to

  make sure that people understand that

  you can start at any point

  and you shouldn't feel impostor syndrome

  like oh i didn't start computer science

  from high school so i must not be good

  at it

  even though i'm starting it now and i'm

  like no no that's not true at all i just

  was lucky

  and even though my cv makes it look like

  i knew exactly what i was doing the

  whole time that's not true

  i started my bachelor's with the full

  intention of just getting a bachelor's

  going into the industry making a lot of

  money

  and then doing whatever i want to do

  afterwards like i didn't actually see

  computer science

  as a means of fulfillment i saw it as a

  means to make enough money than to do

  whatever i wanted to do

  and then i made a sharp right turn into

  grad school

  because i had a professor who basically

  said you need to go to grad school

  and i thought about it for a summer

  while i was interning at google

  at a very boring internship and

  decided that yeah i want to go to grad

  school because i wanted to learn

  how to learn from academia and

  i had the full intention that like if i

  achieved that goal and didn't want to

  stay in grad school after my master's i

  wasn't going to stay

  so applied to grad school got into grad

  school

  started my master's in computer

  networking transitioned between various

  advisors

  had one advisor who in many ways was

  excellent because he basically told me

  you don't want to do computer networking

  research which at the time is horrifying

  to hear as a grad student

  because you had convinced yourself that

  this is what you want to do because

  that's why you're here rather than

  making boatloads of money in industry

  and he basically was like i don't think

  you actually want to do this and i took

  it seriously enough that i then started

  exploring and that also was the year of

  the mooc

  where massive open online courses became

  a huge thing and suddenly i was like

  i didn't know i could do research in

  this like i didn't know this was a thing

  i want to do this and so when i came

  back to that advisor and said like i

  found this thing and he's like

  this is what you want to do like this is

  the first time i've seen you light up

  about this idea and so then it took a

  couple more advisors to figure out

  actually finding someone who resonated

  enough to actually make it make sense so

  by the end of grad school after seven

  years

  i did my master's in computer networking

  and then had to kind of restart

  my phd work completely to do my cse

  research

  it took me five advisors until i finally

  found the advisor that actually made

  sense

  for csv research took a while so i

  i took longer than most people so on my

  cv it looks like i totally knew what i

  was doing but i'm like no

  i was figuring i was going along at the

  time everything was making sense to a

  certain degree

  and it's actually one reason why in grad

  school i made this it's called eek's

  peers

  eecs which is the department's name as a

  support group for grad students so i was

  like i don't want anyone to go through

  what i went through like i had

  a summer of depression i saw a

  professional because i was like

  something is wrong

  yeah one of the episodes that's going to

  release since september is like national

  suicide prevention month is talking

  about like depression suicidality and

  computer science education and whatnot

  so that's like a big

  area and yeah i can relate to that i

  don't know of any

  doc student that i've worked with who

  couldn't have benefited from

  going and seeing a therapist like each

  week because it is

  a lot of pressure it is a lot of

  pressure and it's a lot of pressure

  from both the outside but you also put

  on yourself yeah and i think part of it

  is because not enough

  of us that have gone through it talk

  about how

  bad it was yes there are amazing moments

  but there are also moments where it was

  really bad

  and every student that ever works with

  me

  whenever they first start reading papers

  i tell them first off you are not stupid

  if you take forever to read a paper

  my first paper in undergrad took me in

  the entire day like literally eight

  hours to

  read one paper and i also then tell them

  the paper is not what happened in real

  life like when you read the paper it

  sounds like oh they knew exactly what

  they were doing

  they knew exactly what hypothesis they

  were going to test and they just

  everything flowed naturally that's not

  what happened that never is what happens

  you start out with like idea a you try

  to figure something out

  to test this idea you end up with idea b

  that

  maybe looks kind of like idea a but

  maybe not

  and then you figure other things out and

  you like

  collect data you start analyzing your

  data realize that idea b

  does not make sense anymore so you go

  with idea c yep and then by the time you

  get to the paper you're like

  idea g and then you write it like you

  knew exactly what you were doing the

  whole time

  and we write that way because it is the

  fastest way

  to like explain what you did like you

  only have so many pages you can't go

  into the chronology story of the epic

  hero story of how you did this

  you don't have time for that so we write

  papers in this way

  and so i tell every student what you

  read in that paper is not actually what

  happened

  it's written that way so that you can

  read it quickly do not think that you

  are stupid if you cannot do it this way

  right my chapter six of my dissertation

  has like several pages where i talk

  about how hard it was for me to find a

  framework to make sense of

  what i was looking at and like pointing

  out all these different things that like

  sort of touched on one aspect but then

  left all these big gaps in other areas

  and so i had to kind of combine some

  ideas

  it's it's a very messy process and like

  the page count limit

  makes it seem much nicer when you

  actually publish things

  it's never like the way that the paper

  claims because

  the paper is written in a very different

  style like and it's that way by design

  but like

  yeah i feel like that not enough of us

  are telling students

  what the reality is and i think that's

  partially because we suffer under

  expert's fallacy we forgot

  and we also forget that novices don't

  know

  and so with all of my students i always

  tell them these kinds of things and

  like last summer i think i had two

  undergrad researchers working with me

  and by the end of the summer our project

  was a bust

  and i told them like you have had an

  excellent but at the end of the summer

  they're like obviously a little

  depressing like

  project was kind of a bust and i'm like

  this was an excellent experience

  to find out that research sometimes

  doesn't work you know like we literally

  tried like three or four different ideas

  to analyze our data and every time we

  came back with like

  there's nothing here i don't think so i

  don't think there's anything here and

  we're like okay

  there's a good another attempt to try

  and understand our data

  so in our email exchanges i know that

  representation

  has kind of like had a big impact on

  your journey into cs i'm wondering if

  you could kind of unpack that

  and maybe talk about what are

  recommendations you have for kind of

  improving

  not just representation but like equity

  and inclusion in general

  yeah so i definitely think equity

  inclusion diversity is very important

  and all the stories you hear you should

  believe them you should believe someone

  when they tell you that this has

  happened to them my journey through

  computer science with the diversity like

  right now i'm in the stands like

  diversity is super important that we

  need to be proactive

  about it my journey through it was i

  think very typical in some ways

  where i started out kind of believing

  what i was being told without super

  experiencing some of it

  and then the advantage of being raised

  by white male

  and being half japanese so as part of

  the model minority

  my parents basically raised me as being

  half is awesome

  and so i was like i am an awesome person

  i am a hybrid it is cool

  and then i had enough self-awareness

  also in college when i got to college

  i remember my intro cs class looking

  around and like counting i'm like oh

  there's not many of us i stood up

  scooted over to the closest girl and sat

  down with like hi my name is kristen

  i was self-aware enough to know that

  like i needed friends i needed to make

  friends so i had a community

  so i think that for

  representation it's important

  and i think i'm still going through

  that journey of figuring out how best i

  can support it

  to be honest in undergrad i was part of

  the women's group

  in grad school i was also part of the

  women's computer science group

  and after being co-president of that

  group

  is when i founded my ex-paris group

  which is the

  grad student support group i made it by

  recognizing

  that people needed support but i hadn't

  at even at that point

  recognized that one reason why you

  needed that

  support was because someone who is a

  minority doesn't necessarily have that

  network easily at hand like i made that

  group because i recognized this deficit

  but i didn't recognize that it might

  have been stratified by racial

  or gender lines i just recognized like

  this is important more people need this

  so i'm going to make form this group

  and the group exists to this day and

  basically the idea of that group is that

  there is a group of more senior grad

  students

  who basically are willing to put their

  name and faces on a website that says

  if you email me i will give you the time

  of day and i don't have to know who you

  are

  you have you can be a complete grad

  student a completely different lab than

  me but i'm willing to talk to you

  and go out to coffee with you to talk

  about whatever troubles you

  now that i'm a professor i'm definitely

  having moments of like

  wondering how i can help people more

  and this is when i wish my classes

  actually weren't so big

  because i can't get to know my minority

  students

  without making it potentially feel weird

  and your classes are like two to three

  hundred right

  two to three hundred students i ran the

  numbers and i did find at least

  that the interesting class that i may be

  focused on teaching the past couple

  semesters

  racially matches the duke university

  racial

  proportions but unfortunately the

  non-asian white

  or the minorities in computer science

  are very small

  even at duke university right which is

  basically everyone who's not white or

  asian

  and i'm now kind of wrestling with

  trying to figure out like what can i do

  to support the students

  at the very least if a student emails me

  and tries to contact me or comes to my

  office hours i definitely try and like

  get to know them better

  but unfortunately that requires them to

  start the interaction

  there's a clear power dynamic there and

  that's also

  kind of puts aside all of the students

  who to them it wouldn't even occur to

  them to talk to the professor

  right i recently read an excellent book

  called the privileged poor excellent

  book

  and the privileged poor was an

  interesting book because it basically

  looked

  at two groups of students

  that would be classified as poor one

  group

  was privileged because even though

  they were from a lower social economic

  background they

  were able to access

  higher quality at schools so they got a

  scholarship to go to a private school or

  something like that

  and then you have the poor students who

  are basically underprivileged

  and they didn't have access to those

  tools and so

  these two groups of students demographic

  wise

  look the same but in actuality

  they are very different in how they

  potentially handle school

  handle college especially the ones that

  were had access to private schools who

  were privileged poor

  already went through culture shock

  because of the

  of like how they are poor and punching

  many of their peers or not they already

  went through that culture shock in high

  school

  and so it doesn't bother them as much

  that their peers do not understand what

  it's like

  to be in a lower social academic bracket

  and on top of that

  they also have learned all the soft

  skills and the soft

  rules about how to interact with adults

  how to interact with professors how to

  access certain resources

  while a underprivileged poor student

  is going through culture shock during

  college and has no idea how to access

  any of those resources potentially until

  their third or fourth year

  when learning that is kind of too late

  to a certain extent

  assuming they make it that far so like

  that is an excellent book that really

  kind of

  helps me realize like i cannot wait for

  students to come to me

  like the students i most want to help

  are not going to come to me

  because they're scared right small

  little asian girl

  they're still going to be scared of me

  just because i have all the power in

  their minds

  yeah and so i'm kind of currently

  wrestling with like how do i

  get students to reach out to me more or

  to to reach out to students in some way

  i don't have answers to that

  unfortunately

  i'm excited that we hired nikki

  washington

  she is a amazing african-american woman

  she got hired as a full professor of the

  practice and she has this class

  called cultural competency and she had

  this excellent paper that i feel like

  everyone is right at this point about

  that

  i think having her will help a lot

  but i want to be careful of also the

  minority tax

  i don't want her to have all the burden

  of all of these things

  it's definitely a case of like i want to

  do everything i can to help myself first

  before asking her what else i can do

  just because i don't want to put that

  extra burden on her

  i've already felt some of that burden as

  being one of the women in the room like

  i was recently on a committee where i

  was the most senior female in the room

  and i'm like i'm an assistant professor

  of the practice

  why am i the most senior woman in this

  room and the the other women in the room

  were the grad student in the undergrad

  and so i found myself basically

  dessert and amplifying their voices to

  make sure their voices were being heard

  in that committee

  like it's great that they were there

  like i think duke is great in the sense

  that they often

  will have a grad student and an

  undergrad student on committees to give

  that voice

  but in some ways i'm not surprised it

  was a woman they're women students

  because women are more willing to

  volunteer

  for services but yeah it was interesting

  being in that committee because i was

  like ah

  i'm not only going to voice my opinion

  i'm also going to amplify

  their opinions and there was one moment

  where i literally had to go

  well as a woman i don't think we should

  do x y

  and z for abc reasons and only after i

  highlighted that did the other men in

  them go like oh yeah yeah

  well as a man i wouldn't want that to

  happen either and i'm like yeah okay

  so kind of picking backing off of what

  you're talking about

  like thinking of learning at scale and

  some of the questions that you're

  raising like how to help

  students individually and whatnot and

  get the ones who are not willing to

  speak up like what do you wish there was

  more research on that could inform

  what you do with adults i wish that

  some research was more practical

  where it's easier to interpret what

  needs to happen

  and that you can implement it but at the

  same time like theory is also important

  like this semester i'm not teaching

  because i'm on parental leave because i

  have a five month old so i'm going

  through

  a phase of well i have the semester off

  but the summer was really my like not

  working period

  she's five months old now and so i

  should behave like a privileged white

  man

  who has a spouse taking care of the

  child and do something academically

  productive

  so i'm like one of my current goals is

  like maybe i'll try and write a grant

  this semester

  and so that requires me now to like go

  through a whole bunch of literature

  and research and like try and come up

  with a decent idea for a grant

  and i'm finding that for myself my

  theory is not

  as strong as i'd like it to be i have a

  bad habit of like going

  this is an interesting research question

  what does the data say and like just

  running into the data without really

  like pausing

  and thinking about the theory behind it

  and so then i end up spending like way

  too long just swimming in data for no

  good reason

  and theory is important because theory

  helps inform the research question is a

  useful lens

  to help you be more deliberate in your

  data analysis and your like

  experimental design the problem is if

  you get too stuck in theory

  those of us who don't have as much

  theory background are like i don't

  understand what i'm supposed to do with

  this information

  right and i think computer science

  education itself we're still a very

  young field and so we're still figuring

  out our theory we're still figuring out

  like how to do any of this so a good

  chunk of our papers actually still are

  pretty practical

  but unfortunately they don't have a lot

  of theory behind them so the cohesive

  whole is not there so

  we're still figuring ourselves out so

  for research questions on

  what what kind of research questions i

  want people to answer if i had a magic

  wand

  i think one that would be what can i do

  to get my students to talk to me if they

  need help

  and i don't mean like help with the

  content necessarily i mean

  help with whatever they need help with

  to master the material

  every semester i probably develop a

  relationship with a handful of students

  who would then trust me enough to tell

  me about things

  that would help them that aren't

  directly connected to the content

  like one student in some ways i was

  heartbroken he had to drop the class

  because kobit 19 happened and he had to

  go home

  and he he was struggling with the class

  beforehand and then suddenly

  being home meant he had to take care of

  an elderly relative

  younger siblings and like two dogs and

  i'm like yeah you cannot

  in this circumstance i strongly believe

  that if you put enough time and effort

  into it you can kind of master anything

  barring physical limitations some of you

  just might take more effort than others

  i strongly believe you can learn

  computer science if you want to but

  he was in a position in circumstances

  where he could not do that

  i fully accepted he's like yeah i agree

  you cannot succeed in this class in your

  current circumstances which broke my

  heart because i was kind of like

  this is one reason why we have

  universities to be able to help you

  kind of get out of that to be put into

  an environment to set you up for success

  not only do i advise computer science

  majors but i also

  at duke we have this extra thing where

  you don't declare in your second year

  until your fourth semester and so before

  that you have a college advisor which is

  more like a generic person that could be

  like a staff member or professor or

  somebody

  and so i advised six first and second

  years as a college advisor

  and every single one of them i was like

  let's meet up like two or three weeks

  into the semester and talk about the

  fact that online learning is not the

  same as in person learning and it takes

  a different skill set

  and let me i just want to check in to

  see like is everything okay

  and for like half of them they were fine

  the other half were like yeah this is

  not the same

  i'm like yeah let's talk about ways to

  succeed in an online learning

  environment

  when you don't have a desk in your room

  and you're stuck working at the dining

  room table

  and like one with one student i was like

  here's an idea buy

  a very obvious headphones and tell your

  family when i'm wearing these headphones

  don't bother me i'm working on school

  those kinds of things just to kind of

  help them

  figure out how to succeed because like

  yeah online is different than in person

  and i think

  at least half my students didn't quite

  recognize that and i wanted to make sure

  i talked to them about that

  like if i had a magic wand that's what i

  would want to know how to get

  every student who needed help to talk to

  me like that if i had a magic wand

  that's what i would want to know

  but i have no idea how to even start

  that

  research or even identify who those

  students would be

  like i have no clue but i if i had a

  magic wand that's what i think i would

  want the most

  yeah that makes sense it's definitely

  hard to do that especially

  at scale with two to three hundred

  students i'm curious though like

  if we kind of flip it what's something

  that works really well two to three

  hundred students that could also work

  really well

  for like small class sizes that teachers

  might not be aware of

  my favorite is peer instruction and

  think per share like those are my active

  learning is my favorites

  peer instruction especially i think is

  useful because it is immediate feedback

  from the entire class of whether or not

  they understood the thing that you just

  told them

  and my dissertation actually focused on

  how students get questions wrong

  so i know a lot about how students screw

  up

  it's fascinating so that means also

  i can come up with really good

  distractors

  really good wrong answers for multiple

  choice questions sometimes i even fool

  myself

  when i was lecturing when i was still

  like i think it was the second or

  third time i was teaching the class and

  i didn't yet have the correct answer in

  my notes

  like i fooled myself a couple times

  where like i see what the students did

  i'm like yeah that's the right answer

  i'm like oh wait no wait no that's not

  the

  answer like because the majority of

  students chose the wrong answer and i

  was like i didn't pause and go

  wait a minute something's wrong

  and what does pure learning look like so

  you mentioned like that as being a

  strategy

  if it's a novice teaching a novice how

  does that look

  in a learning space so in a learning

  space the way that i do peer instruction

  is i pose the question to the class via

  some way that i can collect an answer

  from every single student

  my main way to do is google forms but

  there's clickers and there's other ways

  to do it

  and then you look at the results and if

  of the students did not get their

  question right you're going to want them

  to discuss

  with their neighbor what the answer is

  and if

  not even 35 percent of the students got

  it right and obviously these are fudge

  numbers you can kind of go up and down

  if you want

  less than 35 got it right then you need

  to give them a hint

  because clearly they don't understand

  what's going on and so after you have

  them discussed

  usually there's some extra things you

  can do like you tell the group like they

  have to come to a consensus they have to

  agree

  before we do the second round and so

  then you do round two

  and round two is you ask them the exact

  same question it's like there's no

  change like exactly the same

  and then you see how the students did

  and so if the students

  usually at that point the students will

  where 75

  will have found the right answer and so

  at that point then you kind of you go

  over the answer because clearly some

  students still didn't get it right so

  you go over the answer and you can move

  on

  if they don't that's a clear sign you

  did not

  teach this thing right and you need to

  try again

  that i think can work in any classroom

  and like watching academic twitter

  like part of me is kind of annoyed and

  part of me is like yes you have found

  peer instruction

  because like a lot of them are like oh

  zoom is great because i can do poles i'm

  like you could do poles in the real

  world

  you don't have to do poles and zoom only

  that mildly frustrates me it's like you

  could have done polls at any time

  but you've just discovered them in zoom

  but like at least you found them now but

  peer instruction has been a thing for a

  long time

  i hope you take this into the real world

  and like i think some of academic

  twitter

  basically said like this is what i'll

  miss when i go when we go back to the

  real world i'll miss polling and zoom

  and like you can do that in the real

  world

  yeah and peer instruction is one of

  those things that i

  personally when i was asked to teach my

  peers and i was learning content i

  learned

  so much from doing that like it is such

  a great learning tool not only for the

  person who's

  receiving instruction but also the

  person who's like having to do

  essentially the teaching of it thinking

  of new ways to

  reframe oh how do i think of this

  concept in a different way and whatnot

  like it's

  very beneficial for everyone when you're

  first doing it students are not going to

  want to do it so you gotta like

  you gotta nudge them to do it so like i

  guess for anyone who's doing wants to

  try this for the first time

  like i will tell you now students will

  not want to do it at first and

  you just got to first set up the

  expectations that you want them to do

  this and then you got to be kind of

  obnoxious about it so the way that i did

  it

  is that i will wander around the room

  looking for people who are not talking

  to anyone

  and i will literally sit down and go hi

  what's your name

  and it's like my name is bob okay then

  turn to another student who's not

  talking hi what's your name

  my name is kate kate i'd like you to

  meet bob bob i'd like you to be kate

  i have made this awkward but now you

  could talk about the question

  and then i go to the next and i keep

  going

  and i don't know if this made it into so

  mark gosdale and i talked about this i

  think

  in his podcast on the csi podcast and

  i don't know if this made the cut but he

  also does something similar but instead

  what he does

  and he can only do it because he's an

  old white man

  and he he said this first i did not say

  that first he walks up to the student

  and starts singing

  that's like the soon that's all he's

  like you are all alone

  and i'm like yeah you can only do that

  because you're a white man who also like

  does amazing work on the ukulele he

  plays the ukulele

  so he can actually sing but yeah he like

  slowly walks towards the student and

  starts like singing you're all alone

  and then student like eventually like

  scoots over and goes talk to someone

  and then after i think a couple rounds

  of this the students kind of get the

  message and they start when they see him

  coming they'll like start scooting over

  to talk to somebody

  yeah i like that i like the idea of like

  i'm gonna do something awkward that

  makes it so it's less awkward to

  actually just engage in a conversation

  with your peer and whatnot another thing

  that i've

  often had to do is kind of like model

  and even practice here's how you can

  help somebody

  like don't just get frustrated with them

  because they don't understand it the

  same way as you like here are some

  questions you can ask or

  and whatnot so you mentioned your

  podcast the cse podcast i'm wondering

  what do you hope other cs educators

  learn from your podcast

  for my podcast i made it because i

  listened to a lot of podcasts and i

  realized that there weren't many

  computer science podcasts out there

  i found it hilarious that you started

  releasing yours i think

  soon after or maybe you started

  releasing before i did i can't remember

  we kind of started releasing our podcast

  around the same time

  and i've actually always been interested

  in science communication

  i watch a lot of science youtube so in

  some ways that's not surprising and

  for the podcast what i wanted was a mix

  of a couple things one

  was i wanted people to learn

  more about the research-backed methods

  to teach computer science like i wanted

  to get the word out there more

  because because especially in higher

  education like at least k through 12

  like there's so much regulation to make

  sure that you all are educated enough to

  like teach

  kids properly and trained like

  professors

  no one trains professors really the only

  times professors are trained how to

  teach is if they're interested in

  learning how to teach

  right and so one kind of thing that i

  want to happen with my podcast for

  example would be like one goal

  or like use case would be that like i

  have my core

  listeners who are kind of like the sig c

  community and

  the hope would be that i'd have an

  episode that someone in that audience

  thought was really useful

  that they could then tell someone who's

  not in the sixth community

  this is a good episode you should listen

  to this one which is why the first

  season was very

  targeted towards like tools how to write

  a good exam like it was very like

  practical these are like things that

  maybe

  a non-sexy person who teaches computer

  science would also be interested in

  listening to

  and now this season's theme

  is where should we go from here to

  really start thinking about like given

  covid

  and the racial craziness that's

  happening eventually

  some form of normal will come back

  after covet but where should we make

  that normal rather than just sliding

  into whatever normal

  comes let's be deliberate about it so

  that this this season is more

  thinking in those terms of like where

  should we try to aim to be

  rather than let whatever we wherever we

  land be wherever we land

  so the goals of the podcast are very

  much this combination of telling people

  about research

  in computer science education getting

  the audience to think about these things

  more deliberately

  and at the same time also be super

  practical because i am an extremely

  practical person

  and so all the episodes i'm hoping

  for this season will also include like

  extremely practical tips that you could

  start

  that day like right after listening to

  the episode you know an action item that

  you could do

  immediately is kind of the goals of the

  podcast at this point i think

  and what has surprised you so far while

  interviewing people on the podcast

  so one thing that i learned during my

  recording with colleen

  and at this point i don't remember what

  whether or not this made it into the

  podcast episode or not

  but during my conversation with colleen

  she made an interesting comment

  saying you should be embarrassed by how

  you taught three years ago

  admittedly she tells me this when i've

  only been

  like a year and a half into teaching so

  like

  i have to remind myself sometimes that

  like even though i taught a lot in grad

  school and actually was a ta in

  undergrad

  like in some ways i've only really been

  teaching like two and a half years

  at the time at like year and a half baby

  professor me

  was a little bit like that hurts i don't

  know if that should be true

  at two and a half year old professor me

  i'm like yeah yeah that should be true

  hopefully in half a year i will be

  embarrassed by how i taught three years

  ago

  very much this is a marathon and not a

  race or maybe it's not even that it's

  it's a journey and your goal should

  always be to continue

  improving your craft and getting better

  at what you're doing

  knowing that you're never going to be

  perfect at it but

  at least right now you're good enough

  because you know the students are still

  alive by the end of the semester

  and they've hopefully learned something

  they're still making it through the

  school and the world

  and you just need to get better and

  better what you're doing over time

  because then you will serve the students

  that you are teaching in the future even

  better

  yeah i like that and that definitely

  resonates i used to have students who'd

  come back

  to classes or ensembles and be like why

  didn't we do it this way when i was in

  it well because i'm continuing to

  iterate every single year

  yeah it's like i didn't know how to do

  it when i was teaching you

  yeah i'm a bit of like a practice and

  productivity nerd

  in that like i'm always trying to refine

  what i do

  and to just like be more efficient

  whether it be like with my playing or my

  writing of code or like how i teach or

  facilitate

  i'm curious like what do you do in order

  to like iterate on those abilities

  whether it be as an educator

  as somebody who can do computer science

  or a researcher in any area

  so i'll answer that in a couple of

  pieces first i also am a productivity

  nerd i love doing that kind of thing

  it's kind of fun to pause and ask myself

  how could i have done this better

  and then coming up with experiments on

  myself like this is the few times where

  n equals one

  is okay because all i'm doing is

  experimenting on myself to see if i can

  get myself to be more productive

  and so i do a lot of things there so for

  iterating

  on teaching i really actually liked

  the episode that you just released i

  don't remember the name of the person

  you interviewed was it dan schneider

  yeah so i really liked how he framed

  your teaching where like the first thing

  you have to do is master the content

  and master like the class management and

  then after you do that then you can

  start thinking about like class

  deliveries like it's phases that you go

  through yeah

  and it kind of helped me actually give

  myself a bit more grace

  because i'm like i am a baby professor

  i'm an assistant

  baby professor like i've only done this

  for two and a half years

  and making me feel like okay so i don't

  have to do everything perfectly all at

  once from get go

  so in terms of improving teaching i

  think at this point

  i only have one class that i've really

  mastered the content

  and the class management of and i'm only

  just now thinking about

  the content delivery part and how to

  improve those things

  like i recently had someone ask how do

  you work on

  class community like how do you help

  their students build a community and i

  tell them it's like i don't know

  like i i'm going pure on instinct and

  like a combination of

  instinct what i experienced as a student

  and like what i wish happened to me as a

  student like that's kind of what i'm

  going on right now

  because i i just i'm not at that stage

  of being able to do that

  this is partially i'm working on a blog

  post sequence of how i organize the ta

  team for my 200 plus student class i

  did a small release to some people i

  know and one of those people asked me

  that question

  because i was asking for feedback on

  those blog posts and i was like yeah i

  don't know

  i wish i knew how to like think through

  how to build community in my class but

  right now

  i'm not at that part but i think for me

  constantly improving

  part of it is reading doing a lot of

  reading and reading broadly like i'm not

  just reading

  the latest research that's out there

  because in some ways it's kind of harder

  to translate the latest research that's

  out there but also reading like

  i'm currently reading a book called

  small teaching which is an excellent

  book i would recommend it to anyone

  i'm also reading a book called range

  why generalists triumph in a specialized

  world

  and by david epstein and

  this book has been really interesting

  because it's it's making an argument

  that

  you should not specialize too soon and

  if you think about college in general

  college really wants you to specialize

  as fast as possible

  like that's what how you have a major

  and

  every major basically wants to pack in

  as many

  of their classes required compared to

  anything else

  and reading that book has gotten me

  really thinking more like oh

  actually maybe we should be thinking

  more in terms of breath like trying to

  help people

  explore more what they're interested in

  and so for me

  i'm not just interested in computer

  science i'm also interested in data

  science like

  how do you teach people data science and

  like what does that process look like

  and data science thankfully has

  built into it more a requirement for

  breath

  because data science outside of any

  context does not make a whole lot of

  sense

  like you need to deeply understand

  biology cancer economics

  to be able to understand the data

  science that you do on top of it

  and anyone who says otherwise is kidding

  themselves if you don't do

  if you do not understand your data

  garbage in garbage outlet if you don't

  understand your data going in you're not

  going to understand the data going out

  regardless of what

  your analysis is you're not going to

  recognize a bad result when you see it

  if you do not understand the context

  your data is coming from right

  education i feel is one of those fields

  unfortunately that has more

  trouble with people believing you when

  you say that because

  i call this the educated fallacy i have

  been educated therefore i know how to

  educate

  yeah and i'm like nah no no that's like

  me saying i can brush my teeth therefore

  i

  am a dental hygienist like

  in teacher education research that's

  called the apprenticeship of observation

  so you go through like your

  and you think that

  you have become this master because

  you've sat through it and so you're

  learning from people and

  it seems like oh this is an

  apprenticeship well no you don't

  understand

  why they're doing what they're doing the

  choices behind that or the theories that

  informs what they're doing

  and so like you're making assumptions

  without being able to actually like

  verify

  if those assumptions are correct and so

  it's an interesting line of research

  apprenticeship of observation i'm going

  to remember this now that i know there's

  actually there's a proper term for it

  because literally i've been making it up

  i've been calling it the educated

  fallacy

  especially when i first got into cs ed

  i came at it weird because like i was in

  a computer science department

  surrounded by computer scientists and

  then i went

  across the aisle to the education school

  and was like talking to

  education professors but there's there

  was no computer science education

  person right to mentor me and so like my

  background is weird because like my

  background is this combination of

  computer science

  with human computer interaction and

  design

  and then k-12 education like i went

  through

  the literature boot camp of like let's

  read all the seminal works

  of k-12 education which has nothing to

  do with my context of higher education

  but like that's what i went through

  when moocs happened though it was very

  interesting being in that position

  because i felt like i was straddling two

  worlds on one side as the computer

  scientists

  who also suffer from the eye of a hammer

  everything looks like a nail

  problem because software engineers

  especially love to solve everyone's

  problem with computers

  and on the other side i had the

  education people who are like you don't

  know what the hell you're talking about

  and you're trying to tell me what to do

  so i don't want to talk to you and

  that's why we have

  terrible education technology in some

  ways because the education people

  rightly did not want to talk to soft

  engineers and so that they built their

  own things which weren't so great

  because they weren't taking advantage of

  all the knowledge that software

  engineers have

  and the soft engineers are building all

  these things that are horrible for

  education

  because they're like they're suffering

  under the apprenticeship of observation

  because they're like i have been

  educated therefore i know how to teach

  people and you're like no you know how

  to teach yourself

  maybe maybe you know how to teach

  yourself but you don't know how to teach

  anyone else

  so stop yeah no i like that

  and it also relates to some of the

  issues that i see with education in

  general

  and research so like the k-12 what

  people do

  the practices are often disconnected

  from research and so

  the podcast like the unpacking

  scholarship episodes try and like bridge

  that gap

  and like allow the two spaces to kind of

  connect with each other a little bit

  yeah i really i do like those episodes

  in some ways i'm tempted to

  steal or riff it for the csv podcast if

  i can get

  more consistent funding right i don't

  have the skills or the inclination to

  learn the skills to edit my own podcast

  so i have to pay a producer to do it and

  i also want to pay myself

  for doing it so the reason there's a

  season two is i found a benefactor who

  was willing to pay for it

  so i have another idea also where i know

  of someone else who is starting

  a cs education for grad students podcast

  and she is planning to pick like some of

  the top papers that like seminal works

  in our fields

  and interview those authors and also ask

  them what really happened

  i like that what was the chronology of

  like what happened when you wrote this

  paper and i was like yes i want those

  podcast episodes

  yeah if she doesn't do it maybe i'll do

  that i don't know yeah and like tying

  that back together

  so i did that unpacking scholarship

  episode of nikki washington's paper that

  you mentioned

  and when i tweeted it out she responded

  saying that that

  paper was actually in response to her

  not getting tenure at her formal place

  and like knowing that what really

  happened was like oh that's fascinating

  like this came out of that so like

  a good thing came out of the negative

  thing and yeah

  i saw that tweet from her and i was like

  oh interesting i'm glad you're a duke

  now i like you here

  you are awesome nikki is amazing

  so one of the questions that i love to

  ask and there's a super cut episode

  that's going to release

  a couple weeks from now on this

  particular topic but how do you take

  care of yourself to kind of stave off

  the burnout of what

  tends to happen with a lot of educators

  and professors

  so for me the biggest thing

  was facultydiversity.org so

  it is the national center for faculty

  development and diversity

  and i found this resource

  i think after faculty orientation maybe

  which for me was

  after a semester of being a duke because

  i started in the spring semester

  and so i went to orientation like a

  semester late which actually in some

  ways is more useful like going to

  orientation after you've been there a

  semester is

  you have you actually know what

  questions you want answered

  and it's a resource intended to help you

  figure out how to make

  being a faculty makes sense without

  burning yourself

  out so they have extremely practical

  webinars

  where it's like go through this hour and

  a half webinar and by the end of it

  you'll have a plan for your semester

  and go through this one and now you will

  start learning the process of

  planning your week every single week and

  there's a lot of like tips and tricks

  and those kinds of things that you can

  do in there

  and when i found this resource i was

  like this is this seems very useful to

  help me start

  figuring stuff out and

  i was horrible at the beginning of

  following their advice

  like it took time to figure it out and i

  was working

  evenings and i was working weekends and

  i was like i hate this

  one reason actually i decided to be a

  professor of the practice and i guess i

  we should define what that is so

  professor of the practice is someone who

  focuses more on teaching

  rather than research at duke university

  and

  there is some expectations of scholarly

  work

  but what's nice at duke is that we can

  kind of define what that means

  to ourselves and so for myself my

  scholarly work is going to focus more on

  research with some outreach like my

  podcast

  but like some people define it in other

  ways and

  so i chose to be a professor of the

  practice

  because i looked at the professors

  at berkeley which was my main way of

  comparing my main yardstick because

  that's where i went to grad school

  and admittedly it's not the most

  calibrated yardstick

  now that i've been away for a while but

  i look at them and i'm like i don't want

  your life

  i was like i don't want to work 60 hours

  a week i don't want to have this huge

  pressure of finding grants and

  publishing i don't want

  any of that i want to have the weekends

  to myself i want the weekends to my i

  want the evenings for my family

  and so that's one reason why i chose

  professor the practice because i was

  like

  i know at least i can do teaching well

  and

  as long as i do that well they're not

  going to fire me

  and so if i have to like do

  less of other things to get that work

  life balance

  no one is going to fire me over it and

  anything else i want to do on top of

  that

  like my podcast on my research i will do

  because i want to

  and it fits into my life obviously

  though i did not know what i was doing

  in the beginning

  and so i was still working weekends and

  all of that and then adding the

  practices

  that i was learning from this resource

  was great because it started

  making certain things more visible and

  more real and helped give me the tools

  to figure out how to

  tweak that so for example the weekly

  planning meeting is where

  you list out all the things you have to

  do and then you match those things to

  your calendar like you literally block

  out time on your calendar like this is

  when i'm going to work on x

  another thing where they have you track

  your time like how long does it take you

  to actually

  actually do things because everyone

  suffers the planning fallacy of

  it always takes longer than you expected

  to right and so happening you track your

  time helps you figure that out i am a

  data nerd because you know i'm a

  computer scientist and a data scientist

  so i still collect my time like i know

  exactly how long i spend on everything

  to the 15-minute increment for work and

  i did this in grad school before

  even learning about doing this as a

  faculty so

  picking up that habit again was very

  easy for me so knowing that information

  i am better at estimating how long it

  takes me new things i still screw up

  like

  i estimated for reviewing for 60. it was

  going to take me an hour and a half per

  paper no it took me like two hours per

  paper or like two and a half hours per

  paper

  so i was still off but i was not as off

  as i could have been

  and so like blocking out my calendar and

  then in the beginning

  it made it very real to me to realize

  that i was underestimating how long

  things were taking me because i had to

  drag those blocks to like the weekend

  like i didn't finish this thing so now i

  have to put this in the weekend and now

  i'm spending weekend time

  and i feel this pain i'm going to

  remember this pain so i will fix

  what i'm doing to stop doing this it

  took me like a year

  before i stopped like working on

  weekends

  and working in the evenings like we had

  one kid at the times like after the kid

  was in bed like pulling up my laptop and

  doing extra like email and that kind of

  thing it took me a long time

  but that's kind of probably the biggest

  things for me which was like accessing

  that resource and a lot of universities

  have yet university memberships there so

  just check your university

  and see if it's in the list because if

  it is then you have free access to all

  this stuff

  planning out my semester i go a little

  crazy

  in how i plan my semester i plan it kind

  of to the hour

  how many hours i'm due on various things

  for various weeks but like no one has to

  be as nuts as i am

  [Music]

  i do weekly planning i make deadlines

  feel real

  and so the way i do that is that the act

  of planning out when i'm going to do

  what

  makes deadlines feel very real to me

  because if i don't get it done in that

  time

  i have moved everything else over and

  that to me at least the deadline is

  feels very real at that point because

  i'm like well if i don't get this done

  now i'm not going to get it done later

  right or i have to shove something else

  over so clearly this is the this

  deadline is real even though technically

  i don't have to do this for two weeks 60

  technically we're all reviewing for 60

  now and that due date is next week

  i'm already done because i was like no

  if i don't do this now i'm not going to

  get it done later i've got other things

  to do other things are tracking my time

  so i know how long things take

  and then i kind of mentioned this before

  i was like making

  underestimating how long something takes

  you feel the pain like make you feel

  that pain so that you'll reassess how to

  do better next time

  i think it's still a balance i still

  plan out my days

  and technically my day is supposed to

  end at five but it never ends at five it

  always end at like 5 30 or 6

  and that's partially because i'm a bit

  of a workaholic like i like

  to do this stuff and i have the

  advantage

  of we live in a place where we can live

  on one income and so my husband

  he's technically a stay-at-home parent

  he supported me a lot in grad school

  so i feel like this is like the

  reciprocal i now hold

  the breadwinner bucket and he had it

  before

  but then what that means is like i can

  continue working my office until

  he goes to daycare picks up the

  three-year-old and brings him home

  and i don't really have to go downstairs

  as soon as they the three-year-old is

  home

  i can like you know three-year-old can

  play with his dominoes or whatever and i

  will continue like

  getting rid of like finishing some last

  email that's how i kind of

  avoid burnout and right now also as

  since i'm on parental leave i'm

  currently going through a process now of

  kind of

  rediscovering how to recharge because of

  this combination of being a workaholic

  and having two kids now and trying to

  manage two kids

  that's that's something that i'm also

  have been working on

  since i finished my dissertation is okay

  now

  how do i have more appropriate balances

  in my life because like i'd finish my

  day job and then at night i'd work on my

  dissertation and on the weekend i'd work

  on my dissertation

  and then i go back to the day job and

  it's like well where's the time for me

  to relax and me to spend time with my

  wife and dogs and whatnot

  grad school encourages very bad habits

  yeah

  i'm still figuring out what does what

  does vacation mean to me

  yeah me too like i know i should do it

  but

  what do i do during vacation that is

  rejuvenating

  i don't know yet to be quite honest and

  i've been trying for two and a half

  years to figure it out

  like i still don't know yeah my

  therapist recommended i take

  a few days off so i took like five days

  off and it wasn't until the fourth day

  when i actually stopped thinking about

  work

  and i realized just how much i think

  about work even when i'm not working

  and i'll just like write down oh i need

  to make sure i do this or oh

  like here's a new idea for this thing or

  whatever and it took multiple days to

  stop doing that

  at this point at least between a couple

  days before christmas

  and a couple days after new year's i

  don't work during that period

  because that seems like a very natural

  like this is sacred we shouldn't work

  between christmas and new year's

  if we can at all but like over the

  summer i'm still bad like i'm like

  i should probably take two weeks off in

  the summer i haven't yet

  i'm still trying to like what do i do

  for vacation

  so now i've actually made a pact with my

  younger sister

  and a bunch of other friends like when

  this whole thing is over

  let's try and meet in hawaii let's just

  plan to try and find a place

  and hang out in hawaii for a week or two

  yeah

  well yeah don't do it the way i did it i

  when i was in hawaii with

  family i was working on my dissertation

  proposal so like there's a picture where

  i'm sitting on the beach

  typing on my laptop i'm on the beach

  like

  don't do that yeah don't do that the

  reason i started in spring action was

  because i had not finished writing my

  dissertation

  like i went on the job market the spring

  before got the job offer from duke and

  then i was like i don't want to start in

  the fall i want to start in the spring

  i'm going to finish writing my

  dissertation before i take this job

  and that made it actually a lot less of

  a stressful time to write my

  dissertation because i also

  i had had my first child right after the

  job hunting season

  and so i was like i'm going to take a

  month off and then i'm going to finish

  my dissertation

  while taking care of a newborn which

  obviously didn't work so my husband

  actually took parental leave to take

  care of the kid

  yes but it worked in the end i got done

  before it was due that's good

  so where might people go to connect with

  you and

  to listen to your podcast so for my

  podcast

  we are the csa podcast on basically

  every platform unfortunately

  sometimes the the is required which i

  think is very silly for a search engine

  but if you search for the cse podcast

  you should find it

  and we have a website sites.duke.edu

  podcast i also have the csv podcast on

  twitter

  and on facebook so all of it is the css

  podcast

  no the unless you're searching for it in

  some

  podcasting app then you might need the

  the

  which is frustrating twitter is probably

  another way of contacting me

  i am at ksm underscore csed

  and i tweet a lot of random stuff i feel

  like on there like sometimes it's like

  fun stuff sometimes it's interesting

  things that i've found on the internet

  or conversations with like a fellow cs

  people

  i think one of my better tweets was

  actually calling amy co

  and mark gosdell and saying like when

  should i publish at a journal i have no

  idea and that was a very nice

  conversation on twitter

  and as always as a friendly reminder i

  include links to all of those

  in the show notes as well as many of the

  other topics books resources etc that

  were discussed throughout this episode

  you can find that clicking the link in

  the description or going to

  jaredaleri.com

  thank you so much for listening i hope

  you stay tuned next week for another

  unpacking scholarship episode where i

  talk about

  implications of scholarship in the

  classroom and two weeks from now for

  another interview

  i hope you're all having a wonderful

  week and are staying safe

Guest Bio

View fullsize

Kristin Stephens-Martinez is an Assistant Professor of the Practice at Duke University in the Computer Science Department. She received her Ph.D. in Computer Science from UC Berkeley. Kristin's research lies at the intersection of education and computer science focusing on using data available in large classrooms. Her research goal is to find ways to allow class sizes to grow without affecting the quality of the learning. She created EECS Peers at Berkeley, a group dedicated to supporting fellow graduate students with grad school life. Kristin is also the host of The CS-Ed Podcast.

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Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode

• Other podcast episodes that were mentioned or are relevant to this episode

  • Computing Education Research with Mark Guzdial

    • In this interview with Mark Guzdial, we discuss the similarities and differences between constructionism and constructivism, think through when to situate and apply learning, discuss contextualized learning, creating multiple pathways for exploring computer science, problematizing subservient relationships with integrated curricula or courses, task-specific and domain-specific languages, using multiple learning theories through a multiperspectivalist approach, changes to public policy that Mark would make to help out CS educators and the field, and much more.

  • Designing Curricula at Scale with GT Wrobel

    • In this interview with GT Wrobel, we discuss the importance of understanding your “why” behind pedagogical approaches and curriculum design, the internal tensions that arise when designing curriculum used by people around the world, the potential for standards and assessment to be a form of oppression, how feedback impacts the evolution of a curriculum, considerations when designing culturally relevant curricula that is used around the world, aligning curriculum development with professional development, the importance of taking a break to prevent burnout, where we hope the field goes in the next few years, and much more.

  • From Mathy McMatherson to Codey McCoderson: An interview with Dan Schneider

    • In this interview with Dan Schneider, we discuss how Dan transitioned from math education to CS education, designing spaces for educational experiences, suggestions for expanding and diversifying CS programs, how pedagogical approaches evolve over time through experimentation and reflection, the importance of listening to and working with kids one-on-one, and much more.

  • How to Get Started with Computer Science Education

    • In this episode I provide a framework for how districts and educators can get started with computer science education for free.

  • Learning at Scale with Kristin Stephens-Martinez

    • In this interview with Kristin Stephens-Martinez, we discuss learning CS in large classes (e.g., 200+ students), the winding and challenging journey through education and research, recognizing the importance of representation and providing support for underrepresented identities, the benefits of peer instruction, Kristin’s podcast (CS-Ed Podcast), the disconnect between research on education and practice in the classroom, and much more.

  • Nicki Washington is Unapologetically Dope

    • In this interview with Nicki Washington, we discuss the importance of cultural competency, expanding beyond “diversity” by focusing on creating inclusive and equitable environments, learning from people and scholarship outside of the field, lessons learned working with CS educators across the country, lessons learned while teaching during a pandemic, focusing on the humanity in computer science education, and much more.

  • Teaching Over One Million Students with CS50's Carter Zenke

    • In this interview with Carter Zenke, we discuss Carter’s pedagogical approach that centers playfulness, creativity, and purpose; lessons learned teaching CS50 to over one million students; balancing free exploration with learning content; designing opportunities for getting into CS; the benefits of watching recordings of your own teaching; helping educators find their “why”; and so much more.

  • The Apprenticeship of Observation and Computer Science Education

    • In this episode I unpack the impact of an apprenticeship of observation and what computer science educators can do about it.

  • When Twice as Good Isn't Enough: The Case for Cultural Competence in Computing

    • In this episode I unpack Washington's (2020) paper titled "When twice as good isn't enough: The case for cultural competence in computing," which explores the five elements and six stages of cultural competence in relation to undergraduate computing programs.

  • More episodes related to equity

  • More episodes related to engagement

  • More episodes related to learning at scale

  • More episodes related to representation

  • All other episodes

• Publications Kristin mentioned

  • Grading for Equity: What It Is, Why It Matters, and How It Can Transform Schools and Classrooms by Joe Feldman

  • Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World by David Epstein

  • Small Teaching: Everyday Lessons from the Science of Learning by James M. Lang

  • The 2 Sigma Problem: The Search for Methods of Group Instruction as Effective as One-to-One Tutoring by Benjamin S. Bloom

  • The Privileged Poor: How Elite Colleges are Failing Disadvantaged Students by Anthony Abraham Jack

• The portion of my dissertation where I mention the messy process of finding a framework to analyze data

• Learn more about what a model minority is

• Kristin’s podcast episodes that were mentioned

  • Listen to Kristin’s interview with Mark Guzdial

  • Listen to Kristin’s interview with Colleen Lewis

• National Center for Faculty Development & Diversity

• Connect with Kristin and listen to the CS-Ed Podcast

  • Kristin’s website

  • Kristin’s twitter account

    • Kristin’s conversation on Twitter about when to publish in a journal

  • CS-Ed Podcast’s website

  • CS-Ed Podcast on Twitter

  • CS-Ed Podcast on Facebook

• Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter

• A beach is a nice location to work on your dissertation, but I don’t recommend working on your vacations . . .

View fullsize

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• JavaScript (Khan Academy) resources

• Media arts and technology makerspace resources

• Scratch resources

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• Swift resources

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