From Mathy McMatherson to Codey McCoderson: An interview with Dan Schneider

In this interview with Dan Schneider, we discuss how Dan transitioned from math education to CS education, designing spaces for educational experiences, suggestions for expanding and diversifying CS programs, how pedagogical approaches evolve over time through experimentation and reflection, the importance of listening to and working with kids one-on-one, and much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast my name is jared o'leary

    if you're new this podcast every week i

    alternate between an interview with at

    least one guest

    and a solo episode where i unpack some

    scholarship this week's podcast is an

    interview with dan schneider

    in this particular episode we discuss

    how dan transitioned from being a math

    educator to

    computer science education dan's

    recommendations for designing spaces for

    educational experiences

    some suggestions for expanding and

    diversifying computer science programs

    how dan's pedagogical approaches evolved

    over time through experimentation and

    reflection

    the importance of listening to and

    working with kids in one-on-one context

    and so much more as always there are a

    lot of links in the show notes and you

    can find them by simply clicking the

    link in the description

    for the app that you're listening to

    this on or by visiting jaredoleary.com

    in this particular episode you're going

    to want to check out the show notes

    because there are links to

    all the posters that dan mentions that

    you can get for free

    and these posters are excellent for

    demonstrating how diverse computer

    science

    stem mathematics engineering etc can be

    so make sure you check those out but

    let's now begin this interview with

    dan introducing himself my name is dan

    schneider i am a computer science

    educator for the last five years i

    taught

    high school computer science in tucson

    arizona started with ap computer science

    principles and then i built our program

    out from there

    and added an introductory course that

    built off of code.org computer science

    discoveries curriculum

    i taught ap computer science a using

    several different platforms

    i taught another sort of advanced level

    computer course that was really just

    what

    i wanted to teach and so we did some

    a-frame things in there with with

    web-based virtual reality and we did

    some github things and

    tried to do some like game design things

    in unity did some other virtual reality

    things with co-spaces

    so i did a lot of things there and then

    one year i also taught an electronics

    class

    where we messed around with arduinos and

    circuit playgrounds and that was really

    fun too

    before that i was a math teacher and so

    i transitioned from being a math teacher

    to a computer science teacher

    pretty much because the ap computer

    science principles course became

    available and i could teach that

    and as a math teacher i focus on math

    intervention and so students who

    you know under traditional settings had

    not really been successful in math and

    then trying to find these alternative

    ways

    to get them successful and i also worked

    a lot with english language learners and

    particularly refugee students

    that the school i was at had a high

    population of i currently

    as of like a week ago i've started work

    as a curriculum writer for code.org

    but i feel like nothing i'm going to say

    here is reflective of that it'll all

    just be

    my work as a high school educator and

    that's some things about me

    your mention of the electronics course

    it made me think of this so i happened

    to receive

    like a physical copy of this book where

    i contributed to chapter two and it was

    on

    electronic circuitry using circuit

    bending techniques

    to make music and sound with children's

    toys i don't know if you're familiar

    with that

    approach to electronic circuitry or if

    you've heard of it

    no that is brand new so what you do is

    you take like a children's toy

    you pull off the case essentially and

    this needs to be like something that's

    not plugged into a wall so you don't

    like

    electrocute yourself it needs to be

    battery operated and small batteries

    and so you take like a wire you tap one

    end of the the circuit and you just

    start touching other parts of the

    circuit to see if it makes a sound

    or if while the the toy is making a

    sound you try and see if it changes the

    sound

    and so you can do this to like change

    the pitch to change like add an echo

    reverb like all sorts of like

    interesting sound effects

    on it so what i'll do is i'll put some

    like links to that in the show notes if

    anyone's interested in it's a really

    like interesting nerdy way of looking at

    electronic circuitry through music

    that's really cool i love that that's

    great

    i wonder what that would look like in

    the classroom

    pulling apart children's toys just like

    roald dahl's worst dream we're just like

    ripping faces off of bears and things

    like that

    so yeah that'd be really good that's

    really cool knowing your background i'm

    curious

    how did you get into computer science

    education in particular because you

    didn't start there

    yeah so i was fortunate enough to go to

    a high school that offered computer

    science courses and so i was able to

    take

    ap computer science a i think when i

    took it was a b

    they had like the second level of the ap

    course and i had a teacher

    who was just like he had like seven

    different classes in the schedule that

    only fit like five different periods

    and he was super overwhelmed and a lot

    of empathy for this teacher

    trying to deliver computer science

    instruction to students and

    differentiate in the types of areas they

    wanted to go

    into whether it was programming or

    networking or computer hardware and

    maintenance like there was just one guy

    for all of that

    and so i saw that there was sort of like

    this need for more computer science

    teachers

    and tangentially at the same time like

    i'd also had a bunch of teaching

    experiences

    i had worked in summer camps and i had

    worked with students and had like

    tutoring experiences and really enjoyed

    that so i had teaching was

    something that was of interest to me and

    i also really like programming i really

    like computer science it

    vibed with me this idea of like solving

    puzzles and starting with nothing and

    making something really creative so all

    those things came together for me to be

    like

    i would love to teach computer science

    and then i went to

    uh the university and there was no way

    for me to become a computer science

    teacher

    like that pathway did not exist when i

    went to the university of arizona so i

    started as a computer science major

    and i finished that i got my major in

    computer science but at some point i got

    an email that was like hey if you take

    two more credits you could be a math

    minor

    and then so i was like okay that's cool

    and then i got another email if you take

    two more credits you'll be a math major

    and i'm like oh that's cool

    and then they're like hey if you do this

    other thing you could be a math teacher

    and i'm like well i guess i'm going to

    do that

    so i became a math teacher sort of in

    proxy of being a computer science

    teacher if i could have i would have

    started as a computer science teacher

    but that pathway doesn't exist at a

    university and it doesn't really exist

    in a lot of places like

    at my alma mater there still is no

    direct way for someone entering

    into that place to leave with a computer

    science education degree

    so that's how i started in math and then

    once the

    ap computer science principles course

    came out started to be offered by the

    college board

    and i saw that it was a no entry level

    introductory experience

    meant to draw in as many students as

    possible

    and it was very rare to have an ap

    course with no prereqs i wrote the

    course proposal for my district and said

    we should offer this and i want to teach

    it and then from there it just blew up

    and exploded

    so what advice would you give for people

    who are in another subject area who are

    just now coming into computer science

    i think first of all like you're not

    alone there are so many folks

    entering from all sorts of different

    areas a colleague of mine who i really

    respect here in tucson

    he was a former english teacher and now

    he's teaching computer science you have

    a background in music education and

    doing computer science

    so it's that you're not alone and

    because you're not alone it's important

    to like find your community

    and so whether that's through like a

    facebook group somewhere or whether

    that's on twitter

    or going through a professional

    development experience and then keeping

    in touch

    it's like scratch has meetups and

    code.org has their forums and cs awesome

    has their google groups you know like

    finding your group of how you want to

    keep in touch with people

    and then just relying on those lived

    experiences of teachers in the

    classrooms

    it's hard to find other like more

    professional resources this was like a

    struggle i had going from a math teacher

    to a computer science teacher is

    resources for math teachers are very

    robust you know it's the national center

    for teachers of mathematics nctm

    has a journal and they have conferences

    and they publish books and they do all

    these things

    and it was very hard to find an

    equivalent thing for computer science

    recently like csta has started to kind

    of fill that bubble and like offer

    resources and

    and their conference was really awesome

    but at the time it was really hard to do

    that i just had to find other teachers

    that was like the number one thing yeah

    for me there's this like

    approach of just grasping at whatever i

    could so i'd find like random youtubers

    who would talk through

    like a language or how to code something

    in particular and like i'd

    while i'd take a bath i just like watch

    youtube videos of people

    explaining how to code in a different

    language or id or whatever and like that

    was one of my ways that i learned or

    signing up for like udemy course or

    some of the online free courses from

    like mit just things like that

    you know i think that's like a

    double-edged sword and like back to your

    other question about like you know

    people transferring from these these

    other disciplines into computer science

    you know the way that computer science

    has been traditionally taught for a long

    time

    is not the best way to teach like

    anything so when i think about

    my experiences as a student in computer

    science at the college level

    like it's all teacher centered it's all

    direct instruction it's all

    it's all these things that like don't

    translate very well to a high school

    classroom

    but pedagogy in science in math and

    english like those types of strategies

    that you learn in these other

    disciplines

    like you gotta hold on to those you

    gotta figure out a way to translate

    those

    into computer science which i think is

    like the really interesting question you

    know like

    you can give general advice of i think

    pear share is a teaching strategy that

    works really well with students so

    jigsaw works really well with students

    you know things that you've done before

    your grading style in your previous

    classes but then how does that map

    onto a computer science classroom is

    something that's hard to think about

    and the struggle is that when you look

    at other folks who may have found

    success in teaching computer science

    it's in environments that don't map into

    like the high school classroom

    like something that's attention for me

    is that

    a lot of computer science research

    happens at 60 and it happens

    around like university classrooms which

    are very different than like k12

    classrooms and so

    translating some of that research like

    doesn't always work i mean frankly like

    the students that you get

    as you do those research studies are not

    represented the students that i have in

    my classroom

    you know like there's gender imbalances

    there's racial and ethnic imbalances

    like

    just a lot of those things don't

    translate and so you really just have to

    kind of like trust your instincts from

    those previous

    pedagogical experiences like your your

    role in leading discussions and figuring

    out how to put that into the computer

    science world

    because if you just trust like you know

    the old professors of ways that's been

    done before you're just gonna lecture

    the whole time your kids will be bored

    yeah that's really important so i'm

    curious

    if you're applying these different

    pedagogies and whatnot

    in your classroom pre-covered what would

    have

    have looked like in your math class

    versus in your cs class

    in terms of what would be similar what

    would be different

    or just in general what would people see

    or experience if they were to walk into

    your class

    so i think pre-covid if you walked into

    my computer science classroom

    i really value

    like the social interactions that are

    available between students

    and creating like a collaborative

    environment that's just like the default

    so you would probably not see

    silence like you would hear things you

    would hear students talking with each

    other

    you would see students like kind of

    moving around if the classroom is

    capable of doing that

    you would see at times it would be hard

    to tell where the teacher is

    that's my favorite thing of like when an

    aide would come with a pass they'd have

    to like scan the room and it's always a

    game of like are they going to figure

    out who's the teacher

    and sometimes they don't they just give

    it to another student they're just like

    i don't know what to do with this i'm

    going to give this to someone else

    so that's like a really great piece of

    the classroom and so a lot of that comes

    from just like my experiences

    working in like academic summer camps i

    think everyone should have the

    opportunity like teach

    at an academic summer camp because the

    things that you value are

    so different than in a traditional

    classroom because

    no one has to be there so everyone is

    just there by elective which means that

    like you kind of have to motivate them

    coming back like you want them to have a

    positive experience

    which means creating like engaging

    lessons is

    tantamount like if you have a whole

    afternoon where all you're doing is like

    lecturing because that's like the most

    efficient way you thought about of

    presenting the material

    that you're going to lose all those kids

    like no one has to be there i don't want

    to go home and complain and be like we

    didn't have any fun today

    and then the other piece of it is like

    summer camps really emphasize the

    relationship you know both between you

    and the student and the students with

    each other

    so you really start to emphasize this

    idea of how do i get to know my students

    and

    leverage that into the classroom

    environment and then also what

    situations can i create where students

    get to know each other and interact with

    each other in ways that like help build

    these social skills

    and you're also not thinking about like

    standards or tests

    like you're only thinking about how do i

    know my students are learning what they

    need to do

    and how do i make sure that they're like

    progressing in a way that feels valuable

    to them personally

    and all those things are so different

    from like a traditional classroom

    so all of that to say like i carry a lot

    of that into what my class looks like

    and so

    finding ways for students to interact

    with each other finding ways to be like

    playful

    at times finding ways for them to do

    projects that are like meaningful

    all those kind of come from my

    experiences working at like academic

    summer camps

    so i have multiple questions related to

    that so

    one going back to what you're kind of

    saying how it's it's difficult to apply

    research on university classes into like

    the k-12 setting

    like it's they're apples and oranges

    there's a huge difference in terms of

    if somebody's electing to take a class

    versus if they're paying tens of

    thousands of dollars a year in tuition

    to attend a class

    versus when they're mandated to take a

    class so i'm curious

    how have you approached like when you're

    a math educator i'm assuming

    students were mandated to be in there

    because of the math requirements to

    graduate from high school

    how did that approach differ from

    your elective classes where kids are

    choosing to be in your computer science

    classes

    well so some things are transferable in

    a way so for example in my experience as

    a math teacher

    i will accept the premise of you know

    they're there mandatorily because they

    have to be

    and i will raise the stakes so the types

    of classes i taught

    these were students usually the year

    that they had to take the high stakes

    test in arizona so it was very important

    they passed this

    and they were already in another math

    class so they were in one math class and

    then they also had me

    separately so they had two math classes

    that year and i taught this extra math

    class and i was taking away

    an elective spot so if they really liked

    band

    i got to yank them out of band and they

    were now in my class

    teaching math and math is not they have

    like a very negative self image about

    math and so they don't like it anyway

    and now we're saying you're in two math

    classes one of which is taking away an

    elective spot

    so not only were they like mandated to

    be there there was like a lot of

    anti-everything you know like they are

    not interested in being in this class

    and nevertheless i got to work with

    these students and they're all you know

    regardless of their own personas both

    projected on them externally and that

    they've internalized themselves like

    they're all brewing kids and they're all

    great

    and so a strategy that works really well

    in that environment that i carry with me

    in other places

    is realizing that like traditional

    methods

    just don't work and you have to find a

    different way to go around it

    so like if teaching math traditionally

    as the textbook prescribes or as i

    remember it

    if that had worked these students

    wouldn't be in this class

    which means that by the nature of them

    being here i need to find something

    that's like tangentially related

    almost tricking them into like doing

    math i kind of anecdotally called it

    like teaching sideways so it's like they

    have like this brick wall

    that if you teach it the regular way

    they'll just crash into the wall but if

    you can find like the sideways path

    around the wall

    then all of a sudden you've moved past

    it and so that is

    transferable and applicable in

    especially like very abstract concepts

    in computer science it's like tricking

    them into doing something that doesn't

    feel necessarily concretely related

    but is now this activity or this task

    that we can reference

    that has all these tangential side

    effects of being related to this task

    that we're looking at

    like there's lots of ways to do like

    boolean logic like ants and ors and

    truth tables and things like that

    without just doing a truth table because

    truth tables are boring but you can find

    lots of ways to do that that still

    get the point across of how this type of

    logic works

    whether that's with cards or dice or 20

    questions or things like that

    you can still get that point across and

    then have this tangential effect of like

    surprise you've been doing this the

    whole time right

    so that is like something that's like

    transferable from that environment

    and so like in those situations where

    students are are kind of being forced to

    be in the class

    another thing that's like super

    important is well it's important all the

    time it's just like building

    relationships you know like

    having a teacher who like believes in

    you and trusts in you and is willing to

    start fresh

    in so many different ways is super

    important for students in that context

    and also in any other context whether

    they've been mandated to be a part of

    the class or they've elected to be in

    the class

    that part stays the same my classes were

    always elective classes like students

    could choose to take them but also

    students needed full schedule so

    sometimes students would just get placed

    into the classes especially like my

    introductory classes

    so in that sense it still kind of feels

    like a mandatory class like they're

    there

    because they get the high school credit

    they need and they don't have as much

    sort of like

    motivation there and so then it's i see

    it as like an opportunity to surprise

    you know it's like this is computer

    sciences is unique and interesting

    i think in that at the high school level

    or even the middle school level

    you haven't formed an identity about it

    necessarily so like by the time you get

    to high school you think of yourself as

    like either a math person you're not a

    math person

    you're an english person you're not an

    english person you're this or that you

    have like your own sense of identity

    based on your prior experiences

    and computer science is a place where

    because it's not offered

    so often all over the place it's a

    chance at the high school level to like

    really reframe some of those identities

    and students can create a whole new one

    of like i can be successful at this

    even though i don't think of myself as a

    math person i can do

    math in the context of computer science

    and not even realize that i'm doing it

    and have this positive association with

    myself being creative and solving

    puzzles

    in a way that is like empowering and can

    build self-esteem and just be really

    cool for

    students that we have in the room so

    that's like the opportunity i see

    when it's a mandated class i can

    definitely see that with kids in

    particular they haven't had experience

    with it so they don't have

    positive negative experiences with it so

    you can kind of build off of it

    but what's interesting with the

    experiences doing

    cs professional development teachers

    because they don't have that prior

    experience with it

    a lot of them start with this negative

    self-image where they're just like

    because i've never done this before how

    do you expect me to teach this thing

    that's true so i've also like

    facilitated professional development for

    teachers so i've seen that too like

    teachers who walk in

    but i think if you you can create that

    same sort of moment for teachers as well

    and those are i think some of like the

    really powerful computer science

    teachers

    like the ones who have gone through that

    process themselves and then are excited

    to bring that process to their students

    those are the teachers i'm most excited

    to see what they do in the classroom

    the ones who you know found their own

    like new sense of identity of just like

    oh this is really cool and this is what

    i want to do and i want to keep adding

    programs and keep doing more things

    um those are the teachers i'm super

    excited by to and the impacts they'll

    have on kids

    so we've previously talked about the

    importance of like the design of a space

    and how it kind of facilitates

    engagement and whatnot so if you have

    like rows

    where every computer is all facing the

    front like a screen then that's more

    conducive to like lecture based versus

    like pods or whatever like

    how was your classroom space set up or

    open

    and how did it kind of facilitate the

    engagements that you've been describing

    yeah so i like this question so this is

    like something that i've kind of thought

    about and written

    about before both of my parents are

    involved in like interior design in some

    way my dad's in construction and my mom

    did like interior design so like

    attention to space is something that

    like i grew up with and

    the sort of like subtle unintended

    consequences of like how space leads in

    certain ways

    and i bring that into my classroom and

    just thinking about like what

    opportunities are available

    depending on how the room is arranged

    versus what opportunities aren't

    in my ideal classroom all the computers

    would be around like a ring

    around the edge of the room with open

    space in the middle

    that sometimes could have they really

    could have tables tables would be like

    the best thing to have in there

    then i could facilitate either like

    unplugged lessons that happened sort of

    in the middle of the room

    or i could facilitate like you know pair

    programming plug lessons that happen

    around the edge of the room

    and having the freedom to kind of move

    between both of those

    is like my ideal environment

    in terms of just how that facilitates

    like lessons and things like that

    my classroom was not set up like that my

    classroom was set up in like pods in

    like a very confined space

    and because we're so confined one

    student sat down it was hard for them to

    like get back up like the chairs would

    back into each other

    we even we had a rule where you couldn't

    like i didn't let them bring their

    backpacks into the classroom because it

    literally just took up too much space

    like they would like trip over them and

    things like that i had a very defined

    path of where i could walk in the

    classroom that's another really

    interesting thing

    like when i was becoming a teacher i had

    like a mentor who one day

    watching me teach all they did was just

    draw where i moved in the room

    and that was so insightful like if you

    ever get the opportunity to have someone

    do that for you that's just like

    you learn so much about like your your

    presence as a teacher

    of just like what paths you get to and

    what places you don't get to at all

    so because of these classroom

    limitations i started to adapt i

    invested a lot in creating like these

    little

    you know like supply stations at the

    tables for students so that they never

    needed to stand up

    you know it's like you didn't bring your

    pencil with you well there's a pencil in

    this little box that you can grab you

    don't have paper with you and you need

    stubble there's scratch paper in the

    middle you can grab you need white

    boards it's in the middle that you can

    grab

    and i even brought that into like

    distributing and collecting

    handouts which is something that we lose

    like so much time for and like if you

    add up all the minutes in the classroom

    just i'm passing out a paper to every

    single student

    big waste of time and so i started

    having like these folders in the middle

    of my pods

    where if i knew ahead of time that i'd

    need to give them something i just put

    however many copies i needed in that

    folder

    and it's like all right you're gonna

    need this handout open the folder and

    grab it there you go everyone gets one

    or if i need to collect papers it's like

    all right put them in the folder and

    then i can just like grade them in the

    folders and put them back

    that's like a nice little classroom hack

    if you have pods and things like that

    and so that's sort of like what my space

    necessitated

    but the other big thing that i started

    to focus on and realize

    um it had to do with my desires to sort

    of to get as many students as i could in

    the room

    and there are some students who are more

    inclined to enroll in a computer science

    course

    mainly just like white males if you let

    everything fall the way it may

    statistically you're more likely to have

    a classroom full of white males than you

    are of anything else

    and i didn't want that i wanted like the

    students in my classroom to represent

    the students in my school

    which was a lot of like latinx students

    and black students and some native

    american students and so

    i really wanted that to be part of my

    classroom and so in looking up

    ways that that happens nc wit has a lot

    of like resources behind that and like

    girls who code published a report about

    it

    and like microsoft has like as like a

    guide where they gathered a bunch of

    resources

    also mostly from nc wit on ways to help

    do that and in reading over all those

    the biggest thing that i saw was just

    how impactful it can be for students to

    see themselves in computer science roles

    and how to see themselves in the space

    that they want to move into

    when you walk into my room there's like

    a wall on the left side as soon as you

    walk in

    and i just started covering that with

    posters of diverse computer scientists

    you know

    black computer scientist native computer

    scientist uh pacific island computer

    scientist and not just computer

    scientists just like

    scientists and mathematicians and just

    like important folks in general

    and so i pulled from like code.org has a

    set of resources csta

    just published some posters cs in san

    francisco csn sf

    has like a cultural heritage page that's

    really great there's a podcast called

    nevertheless that did like this

    beautiful poster series

    that's like eight women that like did

    all these like great things

    in like may jemison's on it who's like

    the first african-american female

    astronaut

    and so what's cool about those posters

    is they were they were just like stem

    posters so there were some computer

    scientists also mathematicians and

    scientists and i got my school to make

    copies of them

    multiple copies and i got them laminated

    and then i just gave them to other stem

    teachers it was like you should put

    these up in your room too

    and i have my room you have them in your

    room and like students noticed

    that all of a sudden there was this

    better representation showing up on our

    walls

    um and showing up in our schools and i

    have these great pictures of some

    students just like

    staring and reading the wall and all

    these different posters i had just

    showing all these different

    black computer scientists american

    computer scientists

    native computer scientists and it was it

    was very cool

    so that's great for people who are in

    the classroom

    but what about the people like if

    there's computer science educators who

    like have a small number of kids

    want to increase the size of their their

    classes so like

    maybe they're only teaching one unit

    they want to teach like their entire

    course load

    on just computer science so how do you

    recruit kids to even want to

    consider that as an elected class again

    this idea of like

    you know you can't be what you can't see

    and like using like representation to be

    a part of that so like

    getting the students you currently have

    to help go out and recruit for you

    and then adding on to that the power of

    like a personal invitation and so like

    that's part of like the research too is

    that

    having like a personal touch and a

    personal contact

    and extrapolating that to this idea of

    like mentors like there's research in

    there that shows that like that is super

    impactful too

    and one of the biggest reasons i think

    about those is just because like for me

    they're like low

    lift you know like printing out a bunch

    of posters and putting them on my wall

    did not take me very much time but has a

    huge impact to the students who walk in

    and see those

    asking some of my students to say hey

    you know here's like a little flyer

    about my class like think of five of

    your friends who aren't in this class

    and go invite them to this class and

    give them this little flyer

    that's very low lift for me and arguably

    low lift for those students

    yet it potentially has like this huge

    impact on the students that i want to

    recruit into the class

    the other thing is like being

    intentional and like leveraging your

    your fellow teacher connections

    so i like would ask like some of some of

    the math teachers and things like that

    if i could go into their classrooms

    and recruit students and like make my

    pitch and things like that and something

    i did

    that not a lot of the other elective

    teachers would do

    is i also went into like the resource

    classrooms so we have like students who

    have ieps

    students who are part of like the

    special education program they're

    sometimes in resource classes

    for whatever their specific learning

    disability is and they still take

    electives and they're

    great and i had noticed that like

    students who have ieps in my class when

    i was teaching computer science

    would do amazing perhaps in contrast to

    the experiences that other teachers had

    and so that was like this really amazing

    resource

    that i could bring those students into

    my classes and so i went and recruited

    in those classrooms

    and a bunch of them signed up the next

    year and it was

    great like again that idea of like you

    know

    who you are as a student like what's

    your self-perception to step outside of

    that and make something creative in

    computer science

    is super validating and super expanding

    and

    the courses that you had you had several

    different options that

    people could kind of self-select into

    what they're doing so when you're

    sending out the personal invitations and

    whatnot did you list like hey if you're

    interested in this

    here's a course related to that or if

    you're interested in this other thing

    here's this other course

    as opposed to here's one course offered

    five different times throughout the day

    yeah and so the way that my school is

    structured there's kind of like two

    entry ways into like an introductory

    course and one of them was like this

    introductory

    computer science discoveries-esque

    course where we also did we did more web

    design stuff

    and this last year i added in like some

    virtual reality augmented reality stuff

    that was really fun

    and we do 3d printing because that's

    really cool so there's that class and

    then there's also the ap computer

    science principles class and so

    you know i'm really grateful that i had

    a class that

    wasn't labeled ap because that's also

    something that's triggering both the

    students

    and unfortunately the counselors you

    know so like when you see that ap label

    that sometimes boxes in students you

    know it just like says like this is for

    this type of student

    and not for these other types which is

    not true and so trying to change that

    perception was was an ongoing process

    but

    in the meantime i had this other non-ap

    introductory course that students could

    jump into

    and that was one i pitched as like more

    of kind of like creativity and coding

    and problem solving

    and then the ap course is one that's you

    know with with computer science

    principles like we focused on like

    real impacts of technology and we still

    do like programming and like impacts on

    society

    and that was like the two kind of areas

    where i pitched those courses

    and students could enroll in both and

    this last year i had one student role in

    both of them and that was really fun too

    so i'm curious going back to like the

    way that you facilitated classrooms and

    whatnot how did it change

    when it went to virtual or online

    experiences

    with covid yeah so that was

    tough to think about so

    i think says that the biggest struggle

    was just

    the inherent inequity of it all purely

    in terms of just like access to

    time to work on things access to

    technology to work on things access to

    like internet access

    and then access to like kind of like

    individuality you know like so many

    students like shared computers with

    with siblings and things like that oh

    i'll also say

    this important context i think arizona

    ends school

    much earlier than the rest of the nation

    so when kovitz started to hit

    and the impact started to really be felt

    we only had like a month left in school

    we had already finished most of the

    third quarter and like kind of like

    halfway through the through the fourth

    quarter and so

    a lot of the concerns that other folks

    had regarding like grading and things

    like that

    weren't as pressing it was more just

    about managing

    this impending trauma that was coming

    through

    and so some ways that my course changed

    is like i just tried to be as

    available and empathetic and continue

    those relationships with students

    that i developed throughout the year and

    keep in touch with them

    the project shifted to things that were

    like more creative and more

    that you could complete kind of

    independently several students didn't

    have access to computers so i put

    together like packets like unplugged

    activities that they could

    they could complete at home we did a lot

    of things with like pixel art

    that you could kind of color in which

    was really cool and then for my ap

    classes they had those ap exams to just

    get ready for that was a whole big thing

    that we had to get through

    so like in terms of how my classroom

    changed i just became a lot more

    focused on the relationship piece

    because i knew that some teachers would

    not do it very well

    some teachers would not adjust at all to

    what was happening

    you know it's like we did something

    different every single day and you were

    going to do the same thing every single

    day

    and i knew that not everyone could

    handle it as gracefully as i had the

    capacity to because i had already built

    up the infrastructure of

    kids on google classroom and having ways

    to keep in touch with me and

    i just gave them a lot of grace to deal

    with perhaps

    other situations that they couldn't

    control and for context for why arizona

    ends earlier than others

    we're in july right now and it's 116

    here in phoenix

    so we also start earlier like we're in

    we're at the end of july and some

    schools are already back in session

    oddly enough

    so i'm curious with the different

    pedagogies and approaches that you

    described

    are there any like philosophies or named

    pedagogies or like even just experiences

    that kind of

    informed why you do the way that you do

    like you mentioned for

    design your parents having a background

    in design and whatnot but what about

    with

    facilitating educational experiences or

    even designing

    the experience itself so

    i think that's a tough one for me to

    reflect on because

    the things that i've like emphasized and

    like where

    i've wanted like what philosophies or

    pedagogies or things like that i've

    prescribed to

    they have shifted as i've matured as a

    teacher

    and so like i almost think of it as

    there's almost like like a maslow's

    hierarchy of teaching

    you know it's like maslow's hierarchy

    for like human existence you know you

    got to start at that base level of like

    shelter and food and water and then and

    then i forget the other levels

    like there's there's a level above that

    that's like i don't know i remember like

    like some of the higher levels are

    things like personal relationships and

    like you know

    being social and things like that and

    then it's it's sort of like this like

    higher level like meditative like

    fulfillment but there's like this

    hierarchy of like

    human needs and desires and things like

    that when you've accomplished one level

    then you internally are motivated to

    like move on to the next level so once

    you feel sufficient with like food and

    water and things like that

    you start looking for like personal

    fulfillment and then when you feel good

    with that

    you start looking for like social

    fulfillment et cetera et cetera

    i feel the same way about teaching where

    it's like you have

    at the bottom you know when i was first

    starting off as a teacher

    i found myself just cute like i needed

    to know classroom management

    and then once i knew classroom managed

    like nothing else mattered until i had

    classroom management

    so i would read things that had to do

    with like classroom management and like

    and interacting and so like i remember i

    like someone gave me like the hairy wong

    like first days of school

    and i was just so overwhelmed like that

    was a terrible thing to give to like a

    first year teacher because

    it's just it makes you feel like if you

    don't set the tone right in the very

    first day the whole year

    is ruined the way i would design things

    really based around just trying to get a

    handle on my classroom management

    and then after that once i felt like i

    had to hang it out i would start

    thinking about like instructional

    designs like how am i delivering lessons

    what scaffolds am i giving students

    during the lessons how am i

    sort of interacting with students

    creating like social environments and

    things like that

    and then once i got to hang it out i

    started to think about like assessment

    like how am i assessing students

    how does the things i value my grading

    system impact the way that students

    complete assignments and things like

    that

    and one difference i think between like

    maslow's hierarchy and this that i'm

    describing is like

    every time i move up a hierarchy as a

    teacher i have to like

    totally revisit and re-evaluate

    everything that i had done before

    so like when i'm grading when i was

    looking at like grading and what am i

    valuing with grading

    you know maybe for a long time i had

    points related to just like compliance

    and just like showing up and

    participating because that helped me

    with classroom management

    and then as i evolved as a teacher i

    realized oh that's terrible thing for

    grading because then

    like my assessment systems like don't

    really value those things

    so all of that to say in my most recent

    sort of

    like reflections on being a teacher and

    if i were to start building things into

    my pedagogy

    now it has to do with like kind of like

    culturally responsive teaching

    and like honoring like student identity

    and pieces like that

    and it's tough because when i look at

    that i realize how many things from like

    my prior experiences i have to dismantle

    so like for example when learning how to

    like interact with students

    and like do discussions and things like

    that teach like a champion came out when

    i was still like learning to be a

    teacher

    and so for a long time that was like how

    i based things and now when i look at it

    from this lens of like student identity

    and like culturally responsive

    it's not that great of a book like

    there's things to look at that really

    deserve like a critical lens

    and so i have to like undo those things

    and change the way my lessons were

    and change the way my assignments were

    and like unpackage all of this

    machinery i built up when i was focused

    on different things so if i were to

    to think about like what pedagogies i

    ascribed to were philosophies

    at this point it would be like ways to

    like honor student voice and student

    choice

    not shying away from tough conversations

    that have to do with like

    student agency and identity and bringing

    their world into the classroom

    like the things we do in the class

    should be directly connected to things

    that

    they experience in the world especially

    in this computer science context like

    this idea of like identity and bias and

    how the work that we do as computer

    scientists is sort of related and a part

    of that work

    and those are things i was not focusing

    on in the earlier parts of my teaching

    and my assignments did not

    leverage those pieces and i feel like if

    i was still in the classroom i'd be like

    unpacking all of that

    so i don't know if this will make you

    feel any different about your

    reflections on that what you just said

    but

    so i took a teacher education research

    course for

    my doctorate like six or seven years ago

    or something so

    i forget who it was that studied this

    but there's

    a lot of teacher educators who research

    identity development of teachers over

    time and how it changes

    and like the things that you focus on

    when you first start is typically like

    you said like the classroom management

    stuff

    and then eventually gets to okay the

    content and then it gets to the delivery

    of the content and then eventually it

    gets to

    okay you're working with human beings

    and you focus on them as individuals

    months if not several year process to

    get from focusing on the classroom

    management to

    actually realizing that you're working

    with human beings

    so your mention of like books that like

    may have been helpful at the time

    it was for that place where you were and

    like myself that very resonated with me

    i

    like it was the book teaching with love

    and logic like that one when i first

    started teaching like i went with that

    and was like

    oh this is cool but then eventually like

    i look back on that and go

    no i wouldn't do that again and here's

    why so

    yeah that definitely relates to it and

    there's this music ed

    scholar who wrote a a chapter and coined

    the term methodology and it's where you

    like buy into a method of doing

    something and like you only will do that

    thing

    at the cost of like everything else and

    so like

    there's this problem where some people

    when they go into education like they

    buy into like

    constructivism or constructionism or

    something and like that's all i'm going

    to do and i'm going to ignore everything

    else out there and it's like but our

    understanding of how we learn

    in education is constantly evolving and

    whatnot so like on that

    like general theme one of the things

    that i like to ask is like

    when you first started what was

    something that you first believe that

    you now look back on and go

    okay no i don't believe that anymore

    it's that

    if you put a lot of work

    into thinking really carefully about

    your assignments in terms of like how

    they're categorized and how they're

    weighted

    and how they and like how frequently

    you're going to do this like you do a

    lot of

    preparation in terms of being very

    systemic

    about how your you know your grades are

    set up and your tests are weighted and

    things like that

    if you do a lot of prep work in that

    then you can be confident that you have

    an objective

    system for how grades

    are like measuring students you know

    like if you've thought very

    intentionally about

    how much i'm going to wait tests and

    quizzes and how many opportunities i'm

    going to have for this and with that

    like confidence that like you have like

    some sort of like objective

    system yeah and i do not believe that

    that's

    true ever and an experience i have that

    like relates to that that if i could go

    back i would do again

    i would do differently 100 was in my

    very first year of teaching

    i was teaching like a sophomore level

    math class and i had a senior in that

    class who was like retaking it

    and the senior like had lots of other

    stuff going on and could only come to

    class like

    inconsistently and so would miss lots of

    things and things like that

    and then like the last week of school

    came back and was like you know like hey

    i you know i need to pass this class

    like what can i do to pass this class

    and i looked at my gradebook which i

    thought had i'd set up in this perfect

    way and i'm like well

    if you get a minimum of like these two

    high scores

    they were like close to a's on like

    these two tests and the finals

    then that will bring your grade up to a

    passing grade

    and then you'll be able to like pass the

    class and graduate and that student did

    not get a passing grade on those tests

    instead he got like mid b's on those

    tests

    going in cold having like missed most of

    the semester

    and i said this i've set up this grade

    book to be objective

    it did not measure it right i'm not

    going to give this person a passing

    grade

    and in retrospect that's like the

    stupidest thing i could have done

    because like yeah they didn't get like

    this arbitrary point that i'd set but

    the students still got like high b's

    on knowing the content and knowing what

    needed to do

    and i think that actually like that was

    like a turning point like my reflection

    of thinking about grades but like that's

    something that for a while i thought

    about it was just like

    if you pay if you do a lot of things to

    set up the system the system could be

    objective

    and as i say that right now that just

    sounds so wrong

    there's so many things about that wrong

    both in terms of teaching and just the

    world that we live in

    i laugh because like i had a very

    similar perspective on it

    and for me the catalyst was a

    professor who asked a question something

    like what happens

    when it takes somebody 11 weeks to learn

    the content in a 10 week course

    so like they achieve complete mastery on

    the 11th week

    but the course ended on the 10th week so

    what do we do about that

    and like just realizing oh well we're

    all learning differently and like

    talking about the more like social

    emotional learning involved

    like what's going on with everybody

    right now with kovid and even before

    that just

    life in general people needing breaks

    and

    time away from school even when they

    want to be there they can't etc so

    i'm curious like that teachable moment

    for you how have you tried to replicate

    that

    in your own teaching with kids it's both

    like

    providing opportunities for flexibility

    and then also providing opportunities to

    like

    listen to students and hear context like

    that i think was definitely a blind spot

    for me in that moment is that

    i didn't have the capacity to like

    really listen to the student and hear

    everything that was going on like

    to me it was you're like a number on the

    paper like these are your absences and

    this is your grade

    and i just did not have the capacity for

    empathy just being overwhelmed with

    everything i was doing in my first year

    so i really listened to that student and

    so ways that's translated now

    is like trying to find opportunities to

    like listen to students

    believing that they want the best for

    themselves

    and if there's actions that are being

    taken that don't go

    in that direction believing that it's

    just because like they don't know like

    the right stuff to take they don't know

    how to communicate it they don't know

    how to bring it up with someone they

    don't feel safe telling it to me but

    they feel safe tonight to someone else

    like

    ultimately everyone wants to like move

    forward and do well in their own like

    sense of doing well

    and just finding opportunities for me to

    like listen to students and honor that

    and then being flexible in my grading

    and writing opportunities to make things

    up

    even past the semester like to your

    point about like the 11 weeks versus the

    i was fortunate enough to work at a

    school that like very much so honored

    this idea of like

    you know you can go back and do a great

    change if someone has like made up that

    work and shown progress

    at that particular time that's very much

    so like a real thing deadlines are just

    like arbitrary

    you know most of the time if like we set

    like a deadline a lot of it's just for

    us so we don't have to like go back and

    create extra work

    and it's very real but that doesn't mean

    that like you can't listen to a student

    make some other type of plan

    around that another very tangible thing

    that happened is like i

    started adding a category in my grading

    system that was just everything else

    so instead of trying to like categorize

    everything it's like we have quizzes and

    tests and projects then everything else

    i don't know what that is

    maybe it's homework maybe it's classwork

    maybe it's you know stuff we do maybe

    it's something i haven't even thought

    about yet but you know

    that's that's just a piece of your grade

    two is this like everything else

    so i'm curious we've been talking a lot

    about like your changes and approaches

    over time how have you

    like iterated or essentially practice as

    an educator

    or as a computer scientist

    so this is another plug for like summer

    camps because there's like no stakes in

    summer camps

    so if i wanted to try out a particular

    like pedagogy strategy or something like

    that

    i could do it with like these kids and

    if i messed it up we'll go take a break

    and come back in and we'll just try

    something else

    and so like i would test a lot of things

    and get things wrong

    a lot kind of working at these like

    academic summer camps which was like a

    real thing so for example i wanted to

    try out this

    teaching strategy called prim which is

    like predict run

    investigate modify make and it's for

    like teaching new syntax and things like

    that

    i thought it was really cool and i

    didn't want to just like plan

    like lesson after left lesson after it

    so i happened to be teaching at an

    academic summer camp and i was like

    i'm gonna try teaching this to you this

    way let's see how it goes and then i

    could like iterate from there

    so like having like safe spaces to do

    that you know throughout the academic

    year that could be like a coding club

    that you run with students

    or it could be sort of like weekend

    workshops or something like give

    opportunities for students to learn

    computer science outside of the

    classroom

    and then you get to practice you know

    your pedagogy as well which is like

    super cool

    me being a musician like i'm constantly

    thinking of like ways to refine my

    abilities as a musician but

    that also can be applicable in my

    abilities in computer science or as an

    educator

    a lot of like reflecting and also like

    data gathering like asking students like

    how is this going how have you liked

    this so far like how does this feel

    and like check-ins on like new pedagogy

    and like reflecting on that

    and like the place that i do a lot of

    that is like i've kept like a blog for a

    long time like i had it when i was a

    math teacher and now i have it like a

    little bit of computer science teacher

    and i don't really like promote it a

    whole lot anymore because it's not

    necessarily for like other people like

    it's there for me like that's where i'm

    like

    reflecting on and compressing and it

    serves as like a

    time stamp for me as i'm like working

    through different things

    and that's been really important for

    like my practice of just like reflecting

    on

    how things have been going and ways to

    improve

    and sometimes in writing those

    reflections like i figure it out i get

    unstuck

    same thing with coding like when you

    talk to a rubber duck i'm just talking

    to a blog post

    yeah and the idea of experimenting with

    your pedagogies and whatnot that really

    resonates with me

    one of the things that i would

    constantly do is be like hey i'm going

    to try out this new thing today let's

    just see how it goes and give me your

    feedback and we'll experiment

    another thing that i really valued was i

    had the opportunity like in music

    education in particular to work

    one-on-one

    like we're gonna play drum set or i'm

    gonna teach you how to do marimba

    and then all all the way up to like i'm

    working with 150 kids

    all in a marching band setting and like

    i'm running the entire rehearsal

    kind of a thing so like knowing the

    different approaches when you're working

    with somebody one-on-one versus when

    there's 150 kids

    in front of you like having that ability

    to kind of like go from small to large

    group and whatnot

    that has also been helpful for me and

    experimenting in

    all those like in-betweens you know and

    i think you know he said something

    that's important too is just like the

    the ability to be vulnerable and just be

    like i'm gonna we're trying this out

    we're gonna see how it goes

    and depending on like the relationships

    you have with students and the culture

    you've created like

    sometimes folks are into that and

    sometimes they're not

    i usually don't do that with like my

    intro classes first like usually

    students i've had for a couple years i'm

    comfortable being like hey

    we're gonna try this thing out and like

    we'll see how it goes maybe we'll do it

    tomorrow maybe we won't we're gonna

    figure this thing out together

    and that's how i've landed on like some

    of like some things that i think have

    been really successful in my practice

    by like iterating with response from

    students

    and hearing students and them knowing

    that they're a valuable part of that

    feedback process too

    yeah and a lot of the experimentation

    that i've done has

    been based on research but also another

    good chunk of it has just been

    based on like intuition and like the

    kids that i'm working with and just like

    let's just try this thing i just came up

    with this idea let's just see how it

    works i've never seen anyone do it

    before

    but we'll see how it goes you know and

    like the other thing that makes me think

    of is my first year teaching

    i taught geometry and that's all i

    taught five sections in a row all

    geometry and because it was my first

    year teaching

    the way i taught the lesson the first

    period was usually never the same

    as when i taught at the last period like

    by the time i got to the

    end of the day is when i was like oh

    okay i figured out how this lesson goes

    so that was like a big part of iterating

    when i was like teaching geometry was

    just like oh

    like i know immediately this lesson did

    not go very well and so i can start

    making adjustments as i repeat it

    and that's also one of the things that i

    think is like tough about computer

    science is a lot of times you're siloed

    and you only teach the lesson like once

    and then you just have to like go with

    that and you don't have that chance to

    iterate on it like that was something i

    missed transitioning from like math to

    computer science is like so often

    you just have one class of one type and

    then you have to like mentally code

    switch

    after you teach a lesson into like the

    other lesson for the other type of class

    and so you don't get that like iterative

    and reflective moment

    as easily you have to really work at it

    to try and do that

    yeah that's a good point so like when i

    taught general music if there were five

    fifth grade classes i would teach the

    same lesson that week

    five times and sometimes i would teach

    it in the same way like literally one

    class and then i teach the exact same

    lesson to the very next class that walk

    in the door

    and it'd be night and day in terms of

    reception and so that's when i realized

    like

    oh well if they have a pizza party right

    before coming to your class that's going

    to change things and if they don't

    so like having that like a b test like

    really helped me out to understand that

    it's not always my fault if a lesson

    doesn't go well even though i like to

    think of the things that i can do to

    improve it

    even when it's like heading down that

    path it's still it's sometimes it's out

    of control

    so speaking of like moments where i wish

    i could go back and change things and

    also like

    moments when i should have listened to

    students and didn't was like in one of

    like my math intervention classes

    we had like a quiz scheduled that day

    and so i was like all right here's how

    we do quizzes you sit here and you do

    this and you do that and you're going to

    carceral pedagogy and you're going to

    sit here and do it like this and

    a kid came in late and he had like a

    little bag

    we had a photo class at our school and

    usually held like a camera

    and there was just something very off

    about what was happening

    and like everyone kind of noticed and i

    didn't care

    i was like you're late we're taking a

    quiz sit down you're gonna take a quiz

    and just everyone was distracted and i

    was annoyed because everyone was

    distracted

    and come to find out like a little later

    in taking the quiz

    this kid had like found a kitten on

    campus and the kitten was in that little

    bag and so

    no one was like paying attention and

    if i just stopped and like had a

    conversation with that student

    and been like what's going on what

    what's happening right now

    we could have like done better things

    for that kitten and like i could have

    just like

    salvaged that moment and then we could

    have actually taken the quiz like that's

    me just feeling locked into a way of

    doing things that i didn't have to be

    there's no reason for me to do that stop

    and listen to kids that's all you got to

    do

    yeah i've got many examples similarly in

    terms of just things i reflect on and go

    oh i wish i would have done that

    differently like if i only knew then

    what i know right now

    so a lot of educators don't actually

    stay in the field after like the three

    and even like five year mark

    and so i'm curious how have you kind of

    tried to

    stave off that burnout and the

    overworking that comes

    with being in education and especially

    when it comes to

    being in something like computer science

    where you can

    always learn more there's always another

    language another ide another platform

    etc

    you know for me personally i think a big

    part of that is just within within my

    nation within my field

    just always finding for like a new

    opportunity like a really good way to

    get me to do something is say like hey

    do you want to do this thing no one's

    ever done before and so like in my

    career

    like i started with teaching just

    regular math classes and then after a

    couple years of the opportunity to teach

    like intervention math classes

    and then after a couple years i had the

    opportunity to teach like english

    language learners and refugee math

    classes which was a whole other amazing

    thing

    and then after a couple years i started

    teaching computer science and after a

    couple of years i started like

    expanding the program or throughout that

    time expanding the program

    so i was always able to like jump to the

    next thing and i think that's how i

    survived

    because if i had continued to teach the

    same class

    over and over again i would have gotten

    bored

    okay yeah and like that's tough

    i mean the the students are new every

    day and i love that every day feels

    different like

    no matter what every class is different

    every student is different like

    that unpredictability is very exciting

    of being in a classroom

    but you feel like you lose out on

    problems to solve you know it's like how

    do i teach this one concept in a way

    that students get it and like after a

    couple years it's like

    oh yeah i can just like rely on these

    lessons like i started to feel it with

    like my ap computer science principles

    course after taught teaching if like the

    fourth year

    you know i could just glance at the

    lesson plans and just like oh yeah

    that's right here is how i do this thing

    and so i wasn't always like motivated to

    learn to like

    adjust that but i do think as i was

    saying like as my

    focus shifted into things like student

    identity and cultural responsive

    pedagogy like

    that would have motivated me to go back

    and like stay in the field to do a

    better job

    that way like that's a regret i have

    right now that i can't like retool some

    of those lessons to

    just be better at like honoring students

    but if you never

    are forced to confront those things and

    make those adjustments like if you never

    move above that

    like hierarchy of what you're focused on

    like if you spend your entire teaching

    career just focused on classroom

    management

    yeah you get burnt out you never evolved

    and then you never have a reason to like

    you know puzzle and unpuzzle yourself in

    how do you create the best lesson that

    there is

    yeah that's a good point when so when i

    was in the classroom

    in the coding classes in the maker space

    like every week i'd be

    exploring something new every day there

    was something new and i'd be sharing

    like hey here's this new project that i

    worked on this past week what are you

    going to work on this week

    but when it came to music classes the

    district that i was in for general music

    in particular

    the lessons were mandated if one of the

    five administrators that i had walked in

    and spot checked and i wasn't teaching

    the specific lesson on a specific day

    i'd get like slapped on the wrist or

    written up for it and so like

    that i would have gotten burnt out on

    very quick and i did

    but when it came to computer science

    like it was refreshing because like

    every day it could be this new

    thing but what about like outside of

    that like because that can be

    overwhelming

    in terms of it never ends like how do

    you take a break from that

    or do you not so the other piece

    that kind of kept me going and kept me

    again it's this idea of like

    this isn't always very appealing to like

    some teachers but

    teaching in a different context than

    just the classroom

    so things like running a girls who code

    club

    or doing like a two or three week summer

    camp like academic summer camp

    environment where you're like

    teaching things that you hopefully like

    you know to students who want to be

    there and like you get

    again because it's not in the classroom

    it's more fun like you can

    you get to build those relationships

    with students you get to focus on the

    things you want to

    like something that i was doing and

    would still do to like avoid burnout is

    teach in context outside of a classroom

    and i think that's very refreshing like

    if you're in teaching because you love

    teaching and you love working with

    students and things like that

    those contexts help remind you of those

    things i think that's super

    important i also think like in the world

    of just like

    you know all these computer science

    educators like folks you know who've

    just gotten into computer science

    and they're teaching some courses and

    they want to get better at computer

    science themselves

    or they want to get better at teaching

    computer science like

    the spending at least one summer just

    like teaching in these programs

    folks will pay you to do this which is

    pretty good that's like the best

    professional development i think you can

    do

    is just having this opportunity to teach

    in different ways to different students

    in different contexts and see how that

    feels

    and see how you grow from that i think

    is really powerful what research in

    particular

    do you feel like would help you grow

    right now or do you feel that is lacking

    in the field

    i think any computer science research

    would help me grow

    because it's not something that's ever

    been

    on my radar know like as a math teacher

    there's things you can read

    about like constructivist math

    techniques or five practices of

    mathematical habits or like

    five practice mathematical conversation

    like there's things you can read about

    in the math world of like

    what research is and what that looks

    like that you see when you become a math

    teacher

    and you're exposed to by like the

    professional organizations you're a part

    of

    i don't see that i have to find it as a

    computer science teacher

    so like on twitter i'm working with

    behind the scenes i'm working with

    another educator named jen manley and

    we're starting these like

    talk cs ed research chats where every

    week we like read a piece of research

    and like talk about it with other

    educators and that's been super helpful

    for me because it doesn't matter

    what we read it's all new it's all

    something different tangentially also

    like listening to your podcast when you

    like break down those research articles

    has also been like

    super useful it almost doesn't matter

    what it is that i'm looking at

    just anything because i have my own

    intuitions of what good teaching is

    and i don't know if those are correct

    and if they are correct i don't know why

    those are the types of things that i

    need to be like a better cs educator

    you have listened to the unpacking

    scholarship episodes and it has helped

    with that but are there other things

    that i can do have intentionally

    shifted directions and focused on equity

    and inclusion for

    several episodes that either have

    already released or will be released

    soon and that's going to be something

    that's going to continue to happen while

    talking about other topic areas but are

    there

    other areas that i might not

    realize are blind spots that could help

    the community

    pivoting to a focus on like equity and

    inclusion and like getting diverse

    voices

    on these podcasts like black educators

    latinx educators

    native educators like getting those

    folks here

    i think is important i think we both

    went to we saw like leon tynes another

    arizona educator just did that cs for

    all teachers

    computing while black webinar which was

    really great so the way i always talk

    computer science

    is not the way that i would like to

    teach computer science anything that

    helps to shift that narrative i think is

    good

    so you mentioned like getting students

    to recruit and

    the one-on-one connection and like

    connecting with teachers and counselors

    who can kind of help you out do you have

    other suggestions

    related to improving like equity and

    inclusion in cs

    that you might give as advice to other

    educators i don't have immediate

    thoughts in this moment regarding

    recruiting students into the classroom i

    think some of the things i said before

    are big there's so many things that

    are when you think of low lift high

    impact

    like those are the things i look for and

    so like representation

    is something that like any teacher can

    put posters on their wall and have that

    available for students

    any teacher can have like a meaningful

    conversation with students to try and

    get them into the classroom you know

    like

    versus like like trying to convince your

    administration to like expand the

    computer science program you know for

    like these reasons that's a harder lift

    it's valid but it's tougher like what

    are the low lift things you can do

    that's generally how i think about

    recruiting but your question made me

    think about like what are some other

    things

    i recently had like the opportunity to

    like speak i presented like the csta

    conference

    a couple of times and i'm gonna like

    present in like a couple of other places

    and i think something that like cs

    educators can do

    who are in those spaces of offering

    workshops or presenting or being

    asked for these things is to take a step

    back and ask

    you know who is the audience that this

    is being presented for and

    am i the right person to be saying this

    message are there other people

    who can present this message better and

    can i invite them

    up or make room for them so like i

    co-presented with two people at csta

    and i'm so happy that i did because one

    they're friends and they're amazing and

    they're awesome

    but also then folks who didn't know who

    those educators are now know who those

    educators are they're kelly lockheed and

    jeff olson and they're amazing

    and they are folks that folks should

    check out and go see

    and so if i'm now asked to like

    present or speak somewhere i'll ask you

    know if i'm on a panel like who else is

    on this panel if it's all

    like white males i don't think i want to

    be a part of that or who's being invited

    to this conference

    like how is space being made for like a

    diverse group of educators to show up

    here

    how is space being made for like this

    equity and inclusion effort and how can

    i contribute to that

    and in some ways i think it's like

    creating space to have like a

    co-presenter who comes with me

    or just declining and recommending other

    people in different places

    that is something that i think we as a

    cs education community can think about

    and that's also reflective of like

    that's been like a problem in the method

    community

    as we're speaking right now like there's

    lots of little like things that bubble

    up all the time on twitter of just like

    these panels that are meant to be like

    folks talking to math educators and it's

    like all white folks and there's no

    teachers on the panel

    and things like that and we

    can do better do you have any questions

    for myself

    or questions for the field sure here's a

    question for the

    field for folks who are involved in like

    cs educator like teacher training and

    preparation

    things like that you know so there are a

    lot of amazing cs educators who have

    recently come into cs education

    from other backgrounds they used to be

    english teachers math teachers business

    team

    teachers music teachers and they are

    presented with in teaching courses

    that they can follow along with and work

    with along with students

    and they can take on these roles as

    facilitators and help develop that

    understanding like along with students

    what are the next steps for those

    teachers

    how does someone increase your

    pedagogical knowledge or

    your cs content knowledge what spaces

    are there

    in the cs education professional

    development field for that to happen

    in my experience when i was looking for

    similar opportunities

    i had gone through like professional

    development

    that was focused on a specific

    curriculum and then if

    i wanted to either be better at pedagogy

    or better computer science

    i either had to take pd from another

    curriculum provider that i didn't care

    about because i already knew the

    curriculum i was going to teach

    or i had to take like graduate level

    courses

    at my university in computer science or

    i just had to take undergraduate courses

    in computer science to just learn more

    computer science and neither one of

    those

    are good choices for teachers in the

    field

    so like what opportunities are there for

    you to become

    a better computer science teacher beyond

    your first introduction to like

    here's the scratch curricula here's the

    cs awesome curricula

    here's the whatever curricula like what

    opportunities are we creating for those

    teachers

    that's a question i have for the field

    yeah i like that it would be interesting

    to have more opportunities for pedagogy

    rather than focus on content and

    platform in terms of professional

    development offerings

    so before going into computer science i

    was looking at micro credentialing and

    just

    thought it was a fascinating idea and

    whatnot like demonstrating competency

    but then also thinking of it well it

    doesn't really get at the point of

    education in terms of growth it's not

    just can you demonstrate understanding

    it's are you

    developing a deeper understanding of

    starting wherever you're at

    and going to somewhere else but when it

    comes to like certification and whatnot

    with computer science education i

    totally understand how like myself being

    a classroom teacher coming from one

    subject area to another

    doing micro credentialing like arizona's

    doing and wyoming's doing like things

    like that that makes things a whole lot

    easier

    to be able to kind of like pick and

    choose a la carte the things that you

    want to focus on

    maybe you'll study pedagogy more maybe

    you'll study specific languages or

    platforms and whatnot but

    yeah i like that question so where can

    people go to connect

    with you and the organizations that you

    work with i'm on twitter

    my twitter handle is at

    matthewmcmatherson

    there's no n at the end but if you start

    typing it twitter will cut off the

    characters i had a blog a math blog

    that's still up for a long time that i

    don't update anymore but it's like four

    years of me being a math teacher that's

    matthewmcmatherson.wordpress.com

    and when i became a computer science

    teacher i started another blog called

    codymcoderson.wordpress.com

    like those are all very transparent

    places i feel very fortunate that my

    math blog

    i will still get people who find

    resources there that are useful for like

    new teachers

    so that's actually another thing i would

    plug i wish more

    computer science teachers blogged like

    in the math world there's a huge

    math blogging community and twitter

    community and ways to share resources

    and really amazing like crowd driven

    projects have come

    out of that and there is not as strong

    as sense in the computer science world

    there are definitely like some folks who

    who blog out there have been doing it

    for a really long time like alfred

    thompson someone who's had a blog for

    like a really long time

    but i would love to see like new voices

    in the cs blogging world of just like

    writing about

    you know things that you're trying out

    in your classroom you know how certain

    lessons went

    you know strategies that you're using

    and building that community i think is

    really

    cool there's another teacher i really

    like and her blogs is really funny

    it's feminist in the classroom that's

    katie o'brien and she's got a really fun

    blog name too

    so yeah i would also plug blogging like

    folks should make blogs and

    build that sense of community around

    writing and get on twitter if you're a

    new computer science teacher i would say

    get on twitter 100

    sarah jets said that too i was just

    listening to that episode and i would

    echo everything that they said

    and with that that concludes this week's

    episode of the csk8 podcast

    i hope you enjoyed this interview with

    dan so i've worked with dan over the

    last couple of years

    through arizona's csta chapter we're

    both on the board of directors

    and i have certainly enjoyed getting to

    know him and learn from him

    if you got a friend or colleague who

    would benefit from listening to this

    interview please consider sharing it

    with them

    otherwise stay tuned next week for

    another unpacking scholarship episode

    and two weeks now for another interview

    i hope you're all staying safe and

    healthy and are having a wonderful week

    thank you again

Guest Bio

Dan Schneider is a former high school mathematics & computer science teacher. He is passionate about creating connections between a students' personal experiences and computer science, empowering them to use computer science to create change in their own communities and as a creative medium for self-expression. He currently works as a Curriculum Development Manager for Code.org and is president of the CSTA-Arizona chapter. You can read about his teaching experiences at https://codeymccoderson.wordpress.com/ and https://mathymcmatherson.wordpress.com/.

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