Discussing Computer Science in K-12 with Shuchi Grover

In this interview with Shuchi Grover, we discuss the importance of having a variety of assessments in a CS class, why we need more research on computational thinking, why educators and scholars should read literature outside of the field, Shuchi’s new book titled “Computer Science in K-12: An A-To-Z Handbook on Teaching Programming,” and much more.

Welcome back to another episode of the
CSK8 podcast my name is Jared O'Leary in
this week's episode I'm interviewing
chuchi Grover in this episode we
discussed the importance of having a
variety of assessments in a computer
science class why we need more research
on computational thinking why educators
and scholars should real it urge her
outside of the field and what people can
learn by reading shoe cheese a new book
titled computer science in k-12 an A to
Z handbook on teaching programming as
always the show notes includes some
extra resources related to this episode
for example some of the papers that
Shuchi recommends reading so you can
access those show notes by visiting
jared O'Leary comm or by simply clicking
the link inside the show notes for the
app that you're listening to this on I
hope you enjoy this wonderful interview
with Shuchi which will now begin with an
introduction so I identify primarily as
a researcher a learning sciences and
computer science education researcher I
have occasionally taught in a classroom
but it's mostly been as part of research
projects I've actually taught more
teachers maybe than students directly as
part of teacher PD and that I have been
doing for a long time even before I came
into si s education working with
teachers as part of technology
integration and such I've actually also
taught a class at Stanford on how to
teach introductory CSN programming and
that course was aimed primarily at EA's
of undergrad courses and students from
the ed school at Stanford my journey
into CS ed research I guess was not very
straightforward I started my
professional life as a software engineer
I had a bachelor's and master's in
computer science my bachelor's was in
India but that I came to the u.s. for my
masters after some years of doing that
and an entrepreneurial venture during
those calm years in the 90s I decided to
go into education and so I sort of moved
from CS into education was sort of when
I think back on why that might have
happened I think it may have had to do
with my master's thesis at Case Western
in 1992 which is pretty interesting the
object-oriented programming languages
had just come out the cd-rom had just
come out for those of you youngsters
that are listening so we were creating
applications with this language called
small
the students of music and this I want to
mention because of your background
students of music and art because there
was a lot of digitization going on in
libraries at that time and of music and
art and this was called the library
collection services project as it
happened and they had partnered with IBM
and the computer science department at
Case Western and we were creating these
applications that would be used by
students you know in classrooms for
students of music so one app for example
was where the music would play on the
cd-rom I remember we had we were working
with the Brandenburg Concertos and stuff
like that and there would be a score
sheet on the screen and there would be a
moving highlight to show what score was
playing in at that time and so that was
like a pretty cool project for that time
and it was a huge thrill to see see as
being applied in the context of
Education and then around 2000 I decided
to go into education and did a masters
at Harvard in the technology innovation
and education program and I think that
was what set me on this path of children
and coding was this volunteer work that
I did at MIT Media Lab MIT Resnick and
Natalie Rusk at the Media Lab and others
had a grant with museums around the
country called the playful invention and
exploration network with museums and the
children were engaging in tangible and
physical computing widths the Media Lab
cricket which was basically the
microprocessor that went on to be the
brain in the Lego Mindstorms kits and so
the idea was to basically have students
use the Cricut to actually create fun
things along with craft materials even
back then I think there was this belief
that the early Mindstorms was already
out by then was very robotic
it was robotic but it was very male
centric with the wheels and I mean you
can only think of building cars or
moving things like that roving things
but you couldn't think of pretty flowers
no or bugs and things like that so I had
volunteered for those workshops and that
sort of you know stayed with me I went
on to work informally in schools with
children in after school
settings actually and I was an EdTech
consultant for teachers and working with
teachers and classrooms but with
students I had these after-school
robotics and digital storytelling clubs
that I had created and these were all
centered around children learning to
program and that's when I started
experimenting with the pedagogy of
teaching programming to kids because of
my background in CS I would see those
sessions as ways to teach some of these
ideas that we now call computational
thinking you know I used to write blog
posts at that time and you know once in
awhile an article for ISTE and whatnot
and I would talk about these very ideas
that we now see as computational
thinking so I had started to engage with
this idea quite passionately and so
that's how then I came into my PhD and
the research topic was I guess a very
organic journey from my work as a
practitioner and then wanting to
understand how we can you know enrich
students robotics and other programming
experiences by also teaching some
foundational ideas of computing and
computational thinking and so you know
my PhD dissertation was in the learning
sciences but it was situated in the
context of computer science education
for middle school I designed a
curriculum it was a great learning
experience because I looked at this
topic from so many sides whether it was
curriculum design pedagogy assessment
perceptions motivation all of that sort
of became part of that experience since
then I've been involved in several NSF
project another grant funding bodies as
well that look at pedagogy is for
teaching CEA's computational thinking
curriculum design assessment integration
of stem and computing but my principal
affiliation is with a small R&D venture
in the Bay Area and in California it's
an NSF funded R&D venture I'm a
principal research scientist there it's
called Looking Glass Ventures and I'm
also a visiting scholar still at
Stanford so that's a long-winded
introduction yeah I really liked your
point about your dissertation in
particular far too often I see a lot of
researchers they have this like
microscope view of Education and so they
hone in so closely on one
a clear thing that they ignore or forget
everything else that goes into education
so I think it's important to kind of
zoom out and think of so many different
factors that go into kids learning can
you tell me a story about an experience
either in education or in your research
that continues to impact you today so
this was a piece of my research during
my dissertation it was around the idea
of helping students build perceptions of
computing basically it had to do with
opening student's eyes to what computer
science is to what computing could mean
there was this research on expansive
framing with someone called Randy angle
at Berkeley was doing and had she had
just passed away around that time and
you know it was a huge loss to the
learning sciences community because she
was looking at transfer and how when you
look at a social view of transfer rather
than a cognitive view the idea was that
if you help students see broader
connections to what they're learning
beyond the classroom and a future use of
that learning then the brain is somehow
primed to actually learn better and and
you transfer better you sort of learn
those ideas better and so the whole idea
was to expensively frame this curriculum
by giving students a broader sense of
what computing means by making real
world connections so I brought in this
idea of using videos from YouTube and
also speaks to identities so I was
thinking at that time and I'll be honest
at that time I was thinking gender for
the most part you know let me have
videos that show girls and different
industries craft music healthcare and
also you know sort of a mix showing a
lot of different ideas but I also
actually recorded vignettes of computing
with people around me there was a muslim
girl who used to wear a hijab at
stanford i interviewed her a black
cohort mate who was doing these
interesting things with computing so i
did think of representation a lot at the
time because of this idea of you know
helping students sort of see their
future selves and it also sort of was a
proxy for sort of bringing role models
into the classroom so it sort of played
a lot of different roles i feel like we
need to consciously make the real world
connection
much better we need to attend to issues
within the curriculum itself and not
sort of separate from it so ideas that
they're learning in the classroom about
simulations about something we could do
so many things to sort of make the
connections but also tie it to identity
and you know this idea of expansive
framing so that is one idea that has
impact and I feel that it has a huge
role to play when we talk right now
about social justice and culturally
relevant pedagogy I think we need to be
showing examples of all kinds of work
done by all kinds of people around us
not just you know the popular examples
of Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook and
things like that so what's something
that has surprised you over the years
with your research on computer science
and computational thinking during my
dissertation in middle school classrooms
in the Bay Area I had designed all kinds
of assessments you know formative
assessment quizzes open-ended and
closed-ended programming projects
multiple-choice quizzes for formative
learning parsons problems in scratch I
think I might have been the first one to
try those out you know mixing up scratch
blocks on the stage and giving to
students reflective notes on their final
projects I even did artifact based
interviews at that time I had a couple
of students in my second iteration of
the study students in class who the
teacher had sort of labeled as problem
kids you know to me and she said you
know they are you know students who are
behind in several subjects and they have
learning difficulties and they've just
been put into this elective classroom
because there's nowhere else to to place
them was the way she had said you know
that they hadn't elected to be here
they'd been placed here they happened to
be students of color and they were often
not on task they were off task a lot of
the times and they didn't do so great
they were behind in their submissions of
the projects that you know kids had to
complete they didn't do so great in the
quizzes and in the pre post you know one
of the great things about my research
was every student showed free to post
gains
but these students sort of did poorly in
the post test even though they did
better than the pretest when it came to
the final open-ended project these two
kids were partnered with each other and
I was a bit apprehensive I felt maybe
they should partner with somebody else
they BEM they might learn they will sort
of learn through working with someone
else who's sort of done better in the
class so to speak and you know my
interviews with both these students
really blew my mind and it really
changed my view on assessment not only
were their final project pretty good it
extended the Mays project that we'd
already done in class but in such
interesting ways and they created levels
and they'd created this scary scream at
the end because it was Halloween and
they had just watched this movie they
told me in the interview and the
interviews were conducted individually
with each student and they showed me the
bug that they had and the fact that they
couldn't fix it and through talking with
me they actually figured out each of
them individually managed to figure out
what the bug was and actually they were
explaining concepts to me you know that
I had taught them in in ways that I
could not see through the pre to post
assessment right in the pre post test
and so this really brought home to me
the idea that certain assessments
privileged some children more than
others and there are many things that
you can learn from quizzes and get quick
feedback but you also have to sort of
give students opportunities and ways to
show their learning that they can do
better
privileged their own voice a little more
and they're learning and show it in ways
that you know may not come through in
other forms of assessment so this idea
that you know you in order to get a
holistic view of a child's learning you
have to sort of have this wide variety
and the formative assessments and
quizzes also played a part for example I
think I've even written a paper about
this about how the dashboard on the day
of the web the day I introduced
variables I mean suddenly the formative
quizzes performance plummeted for the
aggregate very few students did well on
certain problems and those I realized
those problems revealed misconceptions I
went back and sort of Marie
did some tried to change how I was
teaching something so you know the role
of formative assessment quizzes that
give you quick feedback on things kids
may not have learned is valuable but
reflections are valuable you've talked
about it set of assessments those are
valuable artifact based interviews are
valuable and so are open-ended projects
but we have to sort of understand what
role each plays and how you can
incorporate you can't just give projects
because it's very hard to grade it's
time-consuming you know students take
time to do them and you take time to
create them and so when are they getting
that feedback I even saw that kids did
things in groups where you know
sometimes one kid couldn't explain what
a certain part of the code was doing
because my friend did that I didn't I
don't know it so it also reveals that
the presence of a construct or a
presence of certain parts of the code
may not indicate understanding so one of
the problems that I have with like
automated assessment stuff and like only
using that is sometimes you have happy
accidents in code where it's like oh
this works I don't know why it works but
it works and cool so when it gets like
automatically graded it's like oh they
understand conditionals or variables in
a psyche well maybe not so I like the
multi-perspective approach that you're
recommending and for people who aren't
familiar with it so the formative stuff
like in the process assessment and kind
of understanding and the summative is
typically towards the end sometimes with
the pretest and then EPS ative is more
of like a reflection on what do you know
now what did you learn through this
project how does that compare to your
prior understandings so like those like
different approaches to assessment I
totally agree with what would you
recommend for educators in terms of when
either selecting or designing their own
assessment that they would use with the
kids they're working with I feel for the
way that we are proceeding in CS
I think the summative assessment is of
course great but it's great for
reflection on the curriculum reflection
on what might change from cohort cohort
because it has
opens too late in the process for you to
sort of hurry to impact learning for
that cohort of students so it's great as
a reflective tool but for your ongoing
teaching and your ongoing district
curriculum and teacher PD etc and you
see things in the aggregate in the
summative assessment for the most part
you sort of see almost students you know
were able to get a handle on this kind
of topic or concept but not so much on
this so how might I teach this better
for formative assessment I think that is
just it's a mindset you have to sort of
constantly tell yourself I need feedback
from students on what they are learning
and this can be done in so many
different ways it can be informal
questions as you are having a whole
class discussion it can be that
expressions as they you know when you
ask something and yeah blank faces but I
think most teachers this is not
something new to teachers teachers have
been doing this all the time so
formative assessment can be more
informal like I said the expressions
what students are responding what to
when you ask them a question as they're
coding and whatnot and it can be a
little more formal to in the form of
exit tickets on a daily basis or every
other day a couple of review and and
those exit tickets you can review the
next morning if they're quick to sort of
give you feedback you can ask a couple
of quick questions they could be
multiple choice they could be you know
short open-ended something that you can
sort of look at and get a sense for very
quickly and then review the next day
because you want to be able to tailor
your learning formative assessments give
students a sense for what the learning
goals are and that is important even in
project-based learning you know it's
easy for students to not know what it is
that I'm trying to learn at the end of
this and giving those formative
assessments sort of give them a sense ah
this is what I'm supposed to be
understanding and learning and no I
haven't got this so I want to I need to
understand this better so that I can
answer this kind of question or whatever
it's also normative right assessment is
a normative Enterprise you measure what
you treasure as they say
to your value and so if you value you
also value creativity you also value
collaboration you value these what we
might call socio-emotional or you know
how is this connecting to your interest
so you want to be probing all of that
because when you probe students with
those kinds of questions they understand
what it is that they need to be learning
whether it's communication whether it's
the vocabulary whether it's
collaboration whether it's the actual
concepts of programming whether it's
it's about you know their interests
being valued you know so I I think all
of that comes through not just the
learning goals but through measurement
as well yeah I love that the idea of
you're basically measuring what you
value but I'm curious how do you help
educators kind of understand what
they're communicating as what they value
unintentionally and like thinking
through oh whoa I only value like the
concepts like the computer science
concepts like conditionals and variables
etc etc and yet I'm not putting a value
on creativity and problem-solving and
like other ways of being that I actually
do value but I'm not actually assessing
so how do you get teachers to understand
that what they're measuring kind of
displays what they're valuing in the
classroom I mean I think good examples
play a big role I think having rubrics
for the projects that not just talk
about oh you have to use a conditional
and you have to use a loop but you know
assigning or apportioning value to use
of media effects self-created media how
have you been creative what have you
done to sort of give students you know
even in closed ended projects this can
happen and and that is something that I
you know have tried all along even when
you are targeting certain goals in the
projects that you have given them it's a
closed-ended project make this you know
make this fried do this but if you give
you always make room for the students to
bring something of their own into it
there be it you know the kind of sprite
they use be it
take that you can you can say make
something but you know connect it to
something that is in your community or
whatever you can find ways you have to
push yourself and I think it comes back
to your learning goals and what the
teachers are you know sort of outlining
as learning goals our learning goals and
I think the CS framework and other
things have done a good job of trying to
say that CS is not just about learning
the concepts it is about building
mindsets it's about I mean the whole CS
for all idea also is about you know
broadening participation in computing
which means we have to attend to
interests and race and community and
gender and what interests different kids
and you know student choice in the
projects of course is always a great way
to sort of make sure you bring the
students voice in and make the idea
relevant make the learning relevant to
them but you can't do open choice
projects all the time and so when it
comes closed-ended project you make sure
that you bring in those elements in your
rubric and there has to be something on
collaboration for example what did how
did you help your partner how did your
partner help you a simple question like
that is sending a signal to them I'm
supposed to be working with my partner
and I'm supposed to be doing well so I
think keeping all those goals of CS sort
of on your mind at all times but also
realizing and this again goes back to
why you know teaching is it's difficult
you can't capture everything in every
assessment and that's one of the things
that I speak about in the systems of
assessment idea some assessments help
you with understanding the conceptual
stuff when they're doing a quiz on the
concept so they know that they you know
there's no creativity there per se
there's no if they're doing it alone
it's there's no collaboration per se but
they're you're for grounding the idea
that concepts are important but then
there is other kinds of assessment that
are valuing those other things and so
you know taken as a whole the students
leave with an experience that all these
things are important I think it's
important to understand you can't get at
everything in every
kind of assessment and different forms
of assessment are good for different
things it's an evolution I mean teachers
who have come in to CS in recent years
obviously had more pressing issues of
how do I deliver this curriculum in the
classroom but now it feels like it is
time to make assessment conversations
more central and more a part of the
learning process you know to make
assessment how to make assessment a part
of the learning process not to grade not
to you know sort of use it for you know
high stakes and accountability but
really as a means to convey to students
what the curriculum is about what you're
valuing but also getting ongoing
feedback on how you're doing on all the
learning goals then it's a multi-faceted
learning goal for CS for sure so what
about the CS educators who are really
into like puzzle based forms of learning
so the assessment is basically the
puzzle itself is a quiz there's one
right or wrong way to answer it and
there's like no opportunities for
creativity within that how would you get
them or how would you speak with to them
about expanding beyond that to include
multiple forms of not only expression
but assessment so again I think
presenting this whole palette of
assessments caring what various
assessments can look like and sort of
bring home the point that the puzzle
based and the quiz based assessment it
satisfies one goal it's one kind of
assessment but you're losing out through
that assessment and what you're gaining
through that assessment is perhaps this
is a feedback you're getting from that
but you're not getting feedback or
you're not valuing you know these are
the things that you value in this
curriculum so you have to sort of mix it
up today you give give a puzzle based
assessment make sure that you know at
the end of two days kids are doing some
form of a project and giving you
feedback through another form and there
you could be you know making sure that
they're able to convey you know they're
able to bring the creativity and
collaboration to the table and other
things and so I think giving a sense for
the palette and the plethora of forms of
assessment and what each one gives to
you and to make sure that it's not a
monocultural diet you can't just be
eating corn all day you've got to mix it
up because each things you know it's a
multi-faceted goal and a multi-faceted
learning process and therefore a
multi-faceted set of assessments if
somebody was an elevator with you and
they're like hey I heard you really new
book what is it what would your elevator
pitch be for the book if you are a
teacher or a curriculum designer who
plans to teach or is teaching coding or
computer science as part of TS or a
technology subject or another discipline
is subject coding can play a role in
several contexts you cannot do without
this book it gives you a sense for not
just a sense but an understanding of all
foundational ideas of introductory
programming for k-12 so that includes
key concepts he practices and key
pedagogy and the book has been created
by galaxy of people who have been deeply
committed to k12 si s education in
elementary middle and high school it
brings together researchers who have
researched this topic or who are well
aware of the research and so it brings
together classroom practice and learning
from you know research in the learning
sciences and see I said it's really
unique in that sense of course the A to
Z organization is unique each chapter
starts with a letter of the alphabet I
had to be creative when it came to X Y Z
yeah it sort of sets you up with that
foundation so it's not a curriculum you
know this is where you start and this is
where you end a lot of curricular PD
training do do go through something like
that but what you leave out through
those short training periods are some of
these foundational ideas what is this
idea how are you supposed to what is the
learning there that a child is supposed
to come away with how might you get
there with examples so there's examples
from blog face and text based
programming languages
there's in fact there's one chapter on
integration and I've gone beyond the
elevator pitch okay so the elevator
pitch is that first sentence now
describing the book to you it also
includes examples of integration of
music by the idea of the work you've
done with assessments also are featured
so we've tried to capture the state of
the art where we are at with our
understanding of teaching of CSS and
programming and so I think it's pretty
unique book in that sense because it
brings both concepts and pedagogy it's
not focused on one language or one
curriculum it's about the broader
fundamental ideas so a teacher who has
not had a background in computing this
book is essential what are some of the
main ideas that you hope CS educators
learn when reading through the different
chapters at a very basic level I think
they will come away with the
understanding that there are
foundational ideas of programming it
transcends programming language and so
very often and early understanding for
many teachers as I'm teaching scratch
it's a scratch curriculum I'm teaching
how to move a block from here to here
this block does this this block does
this when you snap them together this
happens it's not about teaching the
programming language is a tool the ideas
are more fundamental the programming
language sort of brings that idea to
life in different ways I mean different
programming languages use different
syntax but the idea is the same you know
these foundational ideas of whether it's
repetition or conditionals or events or
algorithms and so these are sort of the
conceptual ideas but then there's this
there are some practices of computing
which we don't normally teach
specifically which are very crucial
planning and writing you know planning
your program is essential learning to
debug your program is essential how to
decompose and you know think about
modularization that's an important skill
as well and so those are practices and
then there are all these pedagogy I mean
there's 3035 years of research that have
looked at how can we teach these ideas
in
that students will learn them well and
so you know the learning Sciences
brought some ideas to the table CS
education researchers have been doing a
bunch of research over the last thirty
years what are the learnings from that
you know things like learning to read
probe reading and writing and tracing
programs when you and how to scaffold
the learning how you can use
project-based learning and
constructionist ideas and how learner
centered and culturally relevant
pedagogy is important that's one chapter
that I'm really happy and glad because
it sort of meets this moment as well
that we are in right now and you know
unplugged activities how do those play a
role and there are some overarching
umbrella chapters like a broad chapter
on students conceptions and what where
they trip up because we have a good
sense and a large body of literature on
that so there's a chapter that's
dedicated to that there's one chapter
that's dedicated to the learning goals
of teaching CS and programming and
that's a lot of what we just talked
about in our previous segment about
mindsets and identity and thinking
skills it's not just about learning
those concepts and practices but it's
about all these other things as well and
so how my pedagogy is or intrusive 'ti
work and there's a chapter on
programming languages and that again you
know these programming languages might
be obsolete a few years from now but
what might be some dimensions of
languages what might you look at so
David mind dropping out that chapter on
what are characteristics of languages
that you might consider when you choose
a programming language to teach with you
know introductory CS and there's a
chapter on integration of coding into
other subjects and that again is I think
a very valuable chapter for teachers or
science and mathematics and social
studies and music and language arts
because we've got examples from all of
those and some very rich examples from
the field so I don't know about for you
but every writing project that I've
worked on whether I'm the one of the
author's or reviewer or an editor or
whatever I've always learned something
from it I'm wondering what have you
learned as a result of editing this
handbook
like a wide range of topics so I
actually started this project with
thinking that I would be writing it
myself and I had outlined the book and
the chapters and the idea the core idea
of the A to Z and you know all the
chapter headings at some point came
about through my own thinking but also
through conversations with others and I
ended up making it an edited collection
and reaching out to specific people for
specific chapters who I felt would sort
of better that than me at that topic you
know and I think what I've learned is
that you know the field is bigger than
any one voice I think a field is
sustained through the voices and
perspectives of many collaboration rocks
so I think the the book is just so much
the better and richer for having these
multiple voices and perspectives from
classrooms k-12 classrooms college and
university from research from teaching
from the u.s. from other countries I
think that was a big learning looking
more broadly I'm curious what do you
wish that more administrators and
educators understood about CS education
in particular I think there are several
aspects of CS I think we just spoke
about this idea of foundational
learnings not just a programming
language or something like that I think
they have to understand teacher
preparation better they have to
understand measurement better
I do hope they don't try to make this
into some sort of a high-stakes thing
but understand that this is a skill and
learning that should be included in the
k-12 curriculum but you know it's
important that we get it right and given
the nature of the field and computing as
an industry I think we have to attend to
issues of equity and diversity and
inclusivity in ways that are meaningful
not just a box items which means
preparing teachers preparing all
teachers preparing teachers of color and
knowing how much representation matters
to students to children to do right by
every child I think we need to think
better about differentiation in terms of
making sure students who have had prior
coding experience don't just learn
better but every student is able to sort
of excel and do well in this space
I'm now connecting it to the idea of
equity and some of these other issues
that have been top of mind for so many
of us in recent days you can't dump
things down for for some students and
let some students you know do well so
how does the issue of rigor sort of play
a role even as we make our curricula
culturally relevant and culturally
responsive we need to reach all students
in a meaningful way I think that is
terribly important and you know we have
to move the needle if all that comes out
of this whole thing is maintaining the
status quo then we would have probably
done more harm than good because we will
have said that we this was supposed to
be C s for all and look what it ended up
being I know this wasn't a direct answer
to your question about educators and I
think everybody needs to embody cultural
competence in computing that's a phrase
and a curriculum and a philosophy I
think in some sense nicky washington's
paper at six he has you know been talked
about in in social media and the sixty
members group etc she's meant talked
about it at the undergraduate level I
think it has to be embodied from the
very beginning in k-12 as well and
cultural competence in computing has to
play out in classrooms in teacher PD and
the curriculum you know it has to be
part of all of it the unique field I
feel computer science because it has a
very direct linkage to industry and tech
jobs you know in ways that some of the
other subjects don't you don't have a
math industry that's only doing
mathematics related things so you know
it's an applied field
you know computing is playing a role in
every aspect in every
Appling in every field and I feel we
need to do a better job with connecting
what comes beyond school college and
career we need to do a better job of
making those connections not so much
that students go into those jobs and you
know fulfill this whole workforce but it
is about the learning and the motivation
and the identity and the representation
and we really do reach all when we say C
is for all Y and to add one more
category to the college and career even
just leisure so like some of the ways
that I've engaged with computer science
was just for fun
like modding a video game or things like
that absolutely historically when we
think about these things and again I'm
not this is not about you per se but
what kinds of students have had the
luxury of having coding as a hobby right
and it's a matter of access it's a
matter of giving all children access to
this yep like I said even I was in the
informal space initially I did feel that
bringing it into the formal space would
be a better way of leveling the playing
field although a lot of good work has
been done is being done in the informal
space as well initially in fact CS for
k-12 students was all in the informal
realm and you know whether it was the
computer clubhouses or you know various
nonprofit organizations girls who code
black girls code they all operate a
Technovation they operate in the
informal space and I think they're doing
a great job but then when you're in the
informal space how do you reach
everybody right and that is what made me
sort of respect the formal learning
space as an avenue for CS yeah one of
our like our core principles that we
hang on to at the nonprofit I work for
is that we focus on the formal learning
spaces because of the access issues like
some kids don't have the luxury of being
able to do after-school programs and
whatnot so we want to be in the school
in the classroom so we only work with
districts who are committed to doing
that I mean we have to really do things
in a way that moves the needle I mean I
remember when we would talk about the
sea
for all stuff you know and cs4 all
became sort of a hashtag and a mantra
said you know that CS for all is a civil
rights issue but I think even I believe
even that needs a rethink it should be a
conditional if we believe that CS is
indeed for all and is a civil rights
issue then CS in k-12 has to be taught
and addressed very differently than we
have thus far
yeah we have to transform the system
yeah that's a lot of hard work if just
bringing it into classrooms is difficult
imagine how difficult it is to cite or
sort of try to make the tech industry
and colleges rethink how we teach
computing but it has to be done so
knowing your background and like all the
things you've done it's very difficult
like especially as a researcher with all
the pressures that are put on you and
whatnot and knowing that you are
striving for these changes not just with
the teachers work with but with systems
how do you kind of prevent the burnout
that can be inherent with the kind of
high demands and pressures everybody in
CS education it's just so busy all the
time they are just everybody is I think
we will all look back on this and
hopefully with cheer and a smile rather
than you know grimace and remorse it can
be very taxing I mean not your hobbies I
love to do crochet and knitting and
gardening those are very Zen kind of
activities for me and somehow with the
recent years I've actually picked it up
a little more and it may be my body and
mind crying for you know a break away
from social media and see a said work
and it you know the writing and reading
and it's 24/7
you know unless you consciously switch
off there is no switching off so there's
that having you know things to do
outside of this I think is is very
nurturing I also feel like in my own
experience the way I have it wasn't
terribly conscious but I think I have
sought out new collaborations and with
every new collaboration you're learning
different things you're working with
different people you are expanding your
horizons and perspectives and learning
about you know the same topic but
different aspects related to CS
education and I find that that has been
very enriching for me is collaborating
with with teachers more and more I have
done that more and more I'm doing that
more and more core design so that the
classroom you know making sure that
teachers have a seat at the table at all
times when we even when we are doing
research but just all kinds of
collaborations you know with different
folks from different universities I
think that that helps yeah you're not in
it you don't feel like you're in Iraq
the new ideas give you new life and new
energy and new enthusiasm yeah it's
interesting how like collaborations can
simultaneously help prevent the burnout
but also kind of iterate on your own
understandings and like teaching new
things that you hadn't necessarily
considered before absolutely I think do
you hit the nail on the head because you
you know these ideas are not you know
just perspectives help you iterate on
your own learnings and abilities and as
an educator you read others research you
collaborate all of that and speaking of
research what do you wish there is more
research on or what do you wish more
people had read in terms of some of your
own research I think we haven't yet
really sank our teeth properly into
computational thinking yes I think it
comes to life in integration with other
subjects because that is one opportunity
to sort of focus more on different
representations and abstraction which is
I think one of the most core ideas about
teaching CT and it's sort of centers the
idea of representation and abstraction
when we are teaching it in another
subject but I don't think we have sort
of really crocked
how to do this integration well how to
prepare teachers to do it I don't think
we can succeed in integration unless we
have
found ways to prepare teachers to
integrate coding and CT and we haven't
really done the bridging work really
well you know this idea of transfer you
know it's been used as a straw man egg
argument sometimes OCT doesn't transfer
so CT doesn't exist or CT isn't a thing
I don't think we have studied transfer
well at all yet I think there needs to
be conscious and deep and specific
studies around transfer before we can
say that transfer doesn't happen because
those of us that have tried it in small
ways and different ways have found that
it happens I think we need to sort of
understand you know this idea of
mediating transfer how do we mediate
transfer how do we bridge to the new
context in order to be able to transfer
I mean we've learned from the learning
Sciences the transfer doesn't just
happen it doesn't happen for free it
doesn't just come about you have to work
at it in the original context you have
to teach in a way to mediate and then in
the new context you have to bridge to
the old context otherwise the
connections I mean the way the brain
works and learning happens those
connections are not made so and I think
CT as a discipline is skilled in CS
classrooms this again goes to this idea
of not just teaching scratch or the
mechanics of a programming language but
to teach those deeper ideas and those
thinking skills I think it is still a
very valuable concept and an idea and
that still needs some work and I feel
happy that a lot of teachers do refer to
systems of assessment and I've sort of
heard about the idea and or teacher
trainers and you know I don't think
researchers I wish that were read and
appreciated better the ideas of
expansive framing and BFL the the work
that I had done around that I think
those are again very valuable ideas the
pedagogy of programming some recent work
that I've done around you know how now
non programming activities sort of can
be a lead-in and it's it isn't just
unplugged it can be digital we create a
digital vibe microworlds etc
but all of them get at the fundamental
ideas stripped away from the clothing
that the programming language brings and
I feel like students need to see those
ideas in those contexts so that they can
get at them more deeply if they're
always in the context of programming
then sometimes it's hard to separate and
hard to help them see the deeper idea
separate from the coding and I think
computational thinking coding is a great
vehicle but sometimes you can teach
coding and not teach nect
I think those are some of the things
that I've still feel even though I've
spent a fair amount of time on that I
still think that there's a fair amount
that needs to be done we haven't written
the last chapter on on all of that as
yet and we still don't know so much
about how to teach it and there's new
ideas every day just yesterday last
evening last night in fact on Twitter
Shriram wrote about data science as you
know the way we should be introducing CS
and how you know and he's been talking
about connecting it to CT and I have had
these ideas for you know I think
representation and data structures those
are ideas that really have not been
thought about very deeply deeply in the
context of CT I'd authored an article
called helping students see Harry Potter
and Hamlet in a new light with computer
thinking and it was it was fundamentally
about this idea of representation and
data structures and how organizing
information in a way that helps you see
and it's a computational lens it helps
you do computational analyses on it but
you can do it manually - the idea can be
presented manually but then you can take
it of course to a whole different level
if you do do that analysis
computationally but the fundamental idea
of creating a data structure like a
graph a graph with nodes and edges to
represent a novel or a work of writing
to analyze it in a different way it
years a whole different set of our
hearts I'm really fascinated by these
ideas of computational journalism
using Python scripts to scrape you know
prison data to do analyses in social
studies it all comes down to
representations and thinking about how
you represent data and how you analyze
that data then it can be done
computationally but the fundamental idea
of the understanding of being able to
use these representations and
transformations is a foundational idea
that I don't think we have exploited
enough video we haven't studied enough
yeah I I think there's in the very near
future there's gonna be a lot more
crossover between data analysis and
corpus linguistics approaches yeah my
dissertation looked at like 11 million
words of data found patterns in the
discourse and then like analyze those
patterns in terms of what does this mean
for like music related practices and
whatnot and I think more people are
gonna start looking at like data in
those ways from a computational thinking
perspective and kind of like combined
the CS side of things with the corpus
linguistics side of things to just
better understand larger patterns in the
world that we can't see yeah oh that's
so fascinating exactly that's exactly
what it'sit's about and we talk about
pattern recognition we talk about you
know data representation as CT you know
and coding is the tool you know coding
is a tool there but the idea is deeper
it's about analysis and pattern
recognition and representation and then
coding is your tool that helps you do
that analysis yeah one of your earlier
comments about like university
professors and just like SES educational
researchers like reading more and
learning more about assessment one of
the interesting things that I've noticed
is there's this weird disconnect between
higher education pedagogy and k-12
pedagogy in the CS world but I don't see
that in the music education world like
there are a lot of music education
professors who like oh well this
pedagogical approach works really well
in like the high school settings so I'm
going to model it in like even some of
the graduate courses and whatnot but in
CS like that what's weird is like
there's a lot of university professors
that are like well I'm teaching
undergrad so therefore I have to
approach it and
really different than I would if it was
in the k-12 room and while on one hand
like yeah it's different context
different understandings etc but on the
other hand like it doesn't need to be a
night and day difference we don't have
to ignore all the k-12 research just to
only focus on the university stuff no
that's so true that is so true in fact I
mean there are people that have been
fighting for active learning and yeah in
in higher ed in CS but it is a very hard
sell and I guess it's just again these
mindsets and systemic you know barriers
and you know that need to be dealt with
it is very true I think arts education
as well and the thing is that pedagogy
is often studied only at the k-12 level
for a lot of things and then they do
stop studying it at the higher ed level
and that is just so unfortunately well
the fact that like active learning is
still like a conversation to be had at
the CS education higher education stuff
like that is not a conversation in like
the arts stuff is it's assumed you're
going to do active learning and if
you're not then people will question it
I think there is this what some consider
a dichotomy but it isn't it's sort of a
spectrum of you know pedagogy and
constructionist versus you know gaff
folded it's not even an either/or it is
about structuring your curriculum in a
way that sort of uses the right pedagogy
at the right moments and we've all sort
of come very far from thinking that you
know just leaving kids to learn program
every kid will have learned and excelled
and will have done you know got all the
things that you want them to learn we
know that that doesn't happen there are
people that come from a very strong
constructionist tradition that are
paying attention to how to balance the
conceptual learning how to bring in
assessment how to bring it in different
ways but you have to attend to it folks
like yes-men and Debbie fields doing the
e textiles curriculum active learning
doesn't mean that you're not going to
teach them anymore
yeah that's something that I've had to
reiterate when I talk
music education courses at the
university level because they were so
bought into the idea of constructivist
or constructionist approaches that they
thought that like direct instruction was
the boogeyman that you had to avoid it
was like well no it's not a matter of
like completely avoiding it it's it's
just finding ways to use it when it's
appropriate and they're not over relying
on it absolutely of course there's a lot
of research on what should come first
whether you should proceed exploration
with explanation and there's been some
studies that have been the thing about
learning is that there is no
one-size-fits-all for every context but
when you're aware of these that
sequencing matters so maybe this time
I'm going to try to let them explore a
little bit maybe it's guided exploration
and then we will talk about it and
discuss it and I will introduce the idea
or whatever or you can say I'm going to
give them just a little bit of this and
now I'm going to let them go and do deep
dig deeper explore with this initial
sort of understanding or whatever you
know Dan Schwartz and John Bransford had
this great paper called a time for
telling and of course in their case they
were showing how students that did more
exploration initially guided exploration
learned better when the explanation was
offered than the ones that were first
given the explanation and then told
explore you know it's a matter of higher
ed folks being aware of all of this
unaware of all pedagogy says if it
doesn't apply to them how to teach only
applies to cater doesn't just like to
hire this bizarre anything about it
right and one of the other advices that
I give or anybody going into any subject
with an education as read outside of
your field and so there's like this like
silo of like oh I can only look at
education if it's CS education research
most like we'll know like look at
physical education look at the arts look
at social studies like find other ways
that they're doing things and try and
incorporate it and learn from it I think
that is so important and I feel that
that is why this is not a plug or oh you
know Rara banner for the learning
Sciences but you know we read as part of
our learning Sciences training we read
so much of the research done in learning
in general
but learning in general is always set in
some context or another right paper that
you're reading it may have been in an
informal or a formal context it could
have been a mathematics learning or a
science learning you're always learning
about something then we come in to CS ed
research and you sort of you know have
this multiple perspectives of different
things that have worked in different
contexts and you know not everything is
applicable but you sort of are able to
bring that I find that in CS ed research
and perhaps this is true of you know
folks that just stay within a discipline
always is that you know they lack that
broader perspective yeah yeah I agree I
was initially when I first started going
into CS education just afraid that like
I would be lacking the background in the
context and whatnot but I feel like
because I came from such a different
perspective unable to do kind of look at
it from the new lens that other people
aren't thinking of and it's sometimes an
advantage oh absolutely I can completely
see that it's an advantage you're
basically bringing new perspectives and
innovations to the fields are there any
questions that I haven't asked that you
want to talk about you know there is
among some naysayers of see t-there's
they've actually changed a narrative and
in a way around city that I feel is very
harmful by saying there is I don't know
if you've heard this at poor get kids
get City and the rich kids get coding
and I've never really understood that I
would argue that it's actually exactly
the opposite you know when children are
developing deeper conceptual and
thinking skills that they're essentially
developing those conceptual
understandings that takes them beyond
the road mechanics and syntax of coding
etcetera you know they're learning about
abstraction and representation that's
like I've said it's a foundation of so
much analytical thinking that can help
them in so many other ways and also you
read articles I've spoken about this at
the ICL s in London two years ago in a
panel about equity and CS and you know
you read articles about coding being the
next blue-collar skill for example or
that AI is going to write
of the code that's being written today
so then what are we preparing our kids
for if all we teach them is coding and
not the thinking skills like I said you
can teach CT through coding provided you
pay attention to it and there are many
instances where you're teaching it in a
way that they're not getting those more
valuable analytical thinking skills and
so I think there is a you know it's an
it there is an equity issue in here and
I think the equity issue is to attend to
the deeper thinking and problem-solving
skills even as you teach coding so that
tomorrow if coding is a skill that's
being done by AI and and robots or
whatever you are you are still
well-positioned do the jobs that go
beyond that I find that argument a
little problematic and I feel that it is
an equity issue to teach kids not just a
programming language part of coding or
whatever but to make sure that you teach
those deeper ideas that they can then
you know whether it's problem solving or
abstraction and representation which
helps you when you're thinking about
mathematics when you're thinking in
science when even when you're thinking
in language arts and other subjects stem
or non stem yeah whether I'm working
with like people with music technology
or in computer science or whatever
anything tech related because it's
constantly changing so fast what I try
and encourage people to approach it is
don't think of this as I need to learn
this thing right now
it's more of I need to learn how to
learn this thing right now because a
month from now is gonna be something new
that you need to learn whether it's
music related or CS related like it's
it's those thinking processes about how
to learn that's the important thing in
the long run yes so where my people go
to connect with you and the
organizations you work with I am at Chu
Chi Grover comm I'm on LinkedIn I am
also on Twitter as Xiu Qi G all of that
is actually on Xiu Qi Grover comm my
Twitter my email I just started the
website a couple years ago it's it
sometimes stays dormant but I have pages
spell and then you book there
on the ATC huh and both which links to
the table of contents and a look inside
so that's a good one-stop place to go if
you want to connect with me and with
that that concludes this week's episode
of the see sk8 podcast I hope you
enjoyed this interview it was wonderful
getting to catch up with Shuchi and
hearing her insights on computer science
education if you found the content in
this episode valuable please consider
sharing it with somebody else and stay
tuned next week where we will do an
unpacking scholarship episode and then
two weeks from now which will be another
interview thank you so much for
listening I hope you all have a
wonderful week and are staying safe

Guest Bio

Shuchi Grover is a senior research scientist at Looking Glass Ventures and a visiting scholar at Stanford University. Her research is focused on teaching and learning of computer science, computational thinking, and programming in schools. She has been working with children and programming since 2001, first in informal afterschool settings, and recently, in classrooms. Her current research encompasses the design of curricula and assessments for all levels of preK-12 CS education, as well as the integration of computing and coding in STEM and other subjects. She has led, and continues to lead, several large research projects (often in collaboration with universities and research organizations) with grants from the US National Science Foundation and other federal agencies. She also consults globally on projects related to K-12 CS, programming, and computational thinking education. She edited and co-authored the recently released "A to Z Handbook on Teaching Introductory Programming" for K-12 teachers.