Lessons Learned Researching Computational Thinking with Stacie Mason and Peter Rich

In this interview with Stacie Mason and Peter Rich, we discuss recommendations for introducing and integrating computational thinking in the classroom, the importance of contextualizing computational thinking within coding practices, peer and family influence on learning to code and to think computationally, lessons learned by researching coding and computational thinking, our perspectives on whether computer science and coding should be a mandatory subject, and much more.

Welcome back to another episode of the
CSK8 podcast my name is Jared O'Leary in
this week's episode I'm interviewing
Stacey Mason and Peter rich Stacey and
Peter are both former classroom
educators who are now doing research on
computational thinking and coding in the
elementary space in particular so in
this interview we discuss different
recommendations for introducing and
integrating computational thinking in
the classroom as well as the importance
of contextualizing computational
thinking within coding practices here in
family influence on learning to code and
to think computationally lessons learned
by researching coding and computational
thinking our perspectives on whether
computer science and coding should be a
mandatory subject which my answer might
surprise some of you and many other
topics relevant to computer science
educators in education as always you can
finally shown us by clicking the link in
the description in the app that you're
listening to this on or by visiting
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there no ads no affiliate links nothing
like that just free content feel free to
share with anyone who might be
interested in that content and with that
being said we're going to now have
Stacey and Peter introduce themselves
I'm Stacey Mason I recently completed a
PhD in instructional psychology &
Technology from Brigham Young University
and part of that I did research on
elementary teachers and students
attitudes and beliefs about coding and
computational thinking and I'm Peter
rich I'm a professor of instructional
psychology and technology at Brigham
Young University and for the past dozen
years I've taught courses on
instructional design and development and
I have for probably about the past 10
years researched how to teach kids and
their teachers to code can you tell me
the story of how you got into computer
science education for me it kind of
started when I first started my own
learning how to code which was
fortuitously the minor of my minor my
major for my undergraduate degree was
Spanish and I was very interested in
computer assisted language learning and
we had to have a minor in Spanish and
the minor I chose was called computers
and humanities and as part of those you
had to have an emphasis choose a certain
emphasis
than computer in the humanities I chose
the more computer focused emphasis and
that's where I took my first to
programming classes and when I started
to program using a simple script
language at the time it was called run
time revolution it opened up a whole new
world for me I realized there was so
many different things that I could do
that I hadn't done before and I was able
to start creating and I think that for
me is what just opened it up I started
making different websites I started
making program I wrote a grant at
Brigham Young University for
undergraduates they have a program for
undergraduate students to write small
grants I actually wrote a grant and
created a simple language learning
program and that's kind of what got me
into it I got to work at that for about
a year kind of turned it into my job did
some programming for it for the Provo
School District and BYU at the time and
then I did a PhD at the University of
Georgia and I did some coding there in
my first year but I realized I wasn't
gonna be able to do a lot of the
research I wanted to if I focused too
much time on developing and so I put it
aside for a few years but when I was
finishing my doctoral degree and
focusing on writing up my research which
was on helping teachers improve their
practice through the use of video
annotation tools I returned to this idea
of coding and I was listening to people
complain about jobs getting shipped
overseas and they weren't complaining
about low-level jobs they were
complaining about engineering and coding
and I realized at that time that first
of all I was odd that we would complain
about it in the US and it's not part of
our standard education at all
so of course they were getting shipped
overseas and then I realized the
experience that I had had learning to
code was transformative for me it helped
me think about math in new ways it
helped me go back and think about
language actually in new ways and I
realized it was something that I wanted
my kids to have the opportunity to do as
they were growing up so I kind of
returned to it well I was finishing my
dissertation and then in my first couple
of years as a professor I would teach
after-school clubs on robotics things
that could be hands
that helps kids young kids especially
and I started with young kids because I
felt that that's when they were still
excited and we didn't see the biases
necessarily that we see in older kids
with gender biases and coding at least
that had been my experience in teaching
some of the after-school clubs the girls
were everybody is excited and every but
in most cases better than the boys at
that age and so that's how it started
for me just started doing those
after-school clubs and eventually that
turned into working with the whole
school and things have just scaled up
more and more from there what were some
of the transformative things in terms of
it helped you think about math and
language like in what ways so when I
started a code again you realize what
you start to code that you have to use
variables and I always did just fine
with math it was never a math genius but
I always did well enough and you have to
use variables you have to use functions
and when I started to use these things I
realized I think for the first time
really what the purpose of a function
was and what a function was at its core
and it made me reflect on math that I
had had earlier in school in my k-12
education as a language emphasis in
college I didn't have to take any math
and so ironically learning to code made
me think about variables and functions
and realize finally what I was doing in
high school I was able to go through and
get answers on things and followed
procedures and the teachers say well
this is the procedure you follow for
this and I was able to do that without
understanding what I was doing and so
that's actually what I started doing my
first couple years as a professor was
researching the correlation between math
and programming ended up coming up with
a theory called convergent cognition
which talks about the sort of the
bi-directional transfer that happens
when you study complementary subjects so
for example first of all language is
second language studying a second
language actually helps your first
language even though that's not the
intention and I found the same thing was
true with math and programming in my own
experience and so I wanted to see if
others have found that in their research
and I went out looked at the research
and sure enough I found repeatedly
correlations between people succeeding
in math and
gramming and vice-versa and first a
second language yeah that's interesting
I actually did cite your paper on
convergent cognition in my chapter six
in my dissertation because it seemed
like the discussion forum members they
were engaging in music through computer
science and they both informed both like
subject areas so yeah I think it's an
interesting topic what about for you
Stacy what's your story of how you got
into computer science education so mine
is also indirect my first experience
with coding was as a graduate student at
Brigham Young University in my first
semester I'm in the church as a sign
course professor Andy Gibbons challenged
us to create a little game and scratch I
think I spent about ten hours and it was
kind of fun and from that experience I
knew I could do it and that I liked
doing it and a semester or two later I
took the intro to programming class with
Peter rich and I really liked it and it
was creative it was logical it was
gratifying when the code worked and the
class itself was up I really liked the
way it was designed but I didn't do
anything more with it right away about a
year later I was a research assistant
for Peter inch and I was working with
another student michaei Perkins who was
designing a canvas course for elementary
school teachers to integrate
computational thinking across the
curriculum and I was working on the
lesson plans for younger grades because
I had taught first grade but then I did
my own thesis which was on a totally
unrelated subject I graduated I started
the PhD and I was looking for new
projects and professor requests and an
email out to all the students saying if
you'd like to do a project where you get
to play with little robots come talk to
me and that sounded like fun I wasn't
looking at it as a long-term thing it
just was a short-term project I thought
that when I talked to him he said you
know there's a lot of potential here you
could really do a lot with this topic
and I needed a dissertation topic I was
leaning toward professional development
for k-12 those were my passions coding
wasn't necessarily my passion but it was
in a way in a way to focus my research a
little bit and so BYU
received a donation to buy little robots
and other technology kits to train
university students for preparing to be
teachers but the donor also wanted these
kits available to teachers in the
community and their students and so I
made up my project to work with the
teachers in the community and I brought
the robots to them and helped them
figure out how they were gonna use them
with their students so that was really
the beginning for me but I don't think I
would have necessarily gotten into it if
I hadn't had the positive experience
with programming if I hadn't learned
about computational thinking I would
have approached it differently I
wouldn't have known to try to integrate
that into what I was doing the teachers
in the community and then that project
led to other projects yeah like I didn't
do any programming until high school so
it'll be interesting to see like the
kids who are starting this in
kindergarten now that they're having
this early exposure in fun and hopefully
meaningful ways like what's gonna happen
of interest for a CS and it's funny that
you mentioned McKay his episode is gonna
release like a couple weeks from now and
so one of the things that he was talking
about is how like math felt very
decontextualized for him which relates
to what Peter you were saying earlier in
that once he started coding then he all
of a sudden like understood math better
and it provided this context for him
he's like oh I can apply this in a
meaningful way and some kind of
interesting way I'm curious for both of
you what's something that when you first
begin working in education you like
strongly believed or thought and now
looking back on that you're like yeah
that's funny
I definitely changed that opinion when I
started my graduate program I believed
in best practices I was looking for the
magic bullet it's like what works
I thought we knew how people learned if
we knew how they learned then you how to
teach them and I was just here to learn
how to teach effectively and since then
I have come to understand that there are
just effective practices in certain
contexts was there a particular like
catalyst for that shift Hartley it was
just hearing someone say that that I was
working with another professor for a
math teacher ed who I hate the term best
practices there are not best practices
and I
really aren't there okay yeah yeah it
definitely relates what about for you
Peter actually this relates to coding
when I was gonna take over the
programming courses in our program the
professor that had taught them for
thirty years was retiring and he told me
at the time he said there's a certain
demographic that's gonna struggle in
your classes and you know as a naive
young professor I thought I can teach
anybody and I you know if they struggle
it's because you didn't do you didn't
teach them right you know as an
instructor and which in one way is a
healthy I guess attitude for a teacher
to think it's my responsibility to make
sure people learn right and to figure
out what's going to work for them much
to my chagrin over the next few years
the students that struggled the most
majesty the demographic that he told me
was going to struggle which really
bothered me and reflecting on my own
educational experience things I'd had
both as a TA as an undergrad and as a
graduate student and then as a professor
and teaching people one of the things
I've come to learn I do think that
anybody can learn anything but people
have certain proclivities some people
are better at some things and some
people are better at other things
interest obviously plays a big role but
yeah there are gonna be people who
struggle with programming and coding and
there's gonna be other people that it
just seems you know at second nature and
I remember an experience I had with this
as a TA when I was an undergrad I worked
in a lab a computer lab and I would help
people with their assignment and I
didn't realize there was a girl that
often asked for help and I didn't think
anything of it until a couple months
later was after that semester was over
she actually came over to my apartment
to audition for my roommates band and
the way that she played the guitar and
sang was just amazing and I realized in
that moment I hadn't realized this
previously that I had gestures being
stupid because she struggled so much
with the stuff that I didn't struggle
with and it wasn't until later where I
saw her excel at something that I
struggle with right that I realized that
I hadn't even made that judgment and so
this is something I think over the years
that I've come to realize is people do
have certain
abilities in different areas and that's
okay right even though I think yeah
everybody should learn how to code it's
gonna help everybody think I do
recognize some people are gonna pick
that up more easily than others yeah it
kind of reminds me of the quote that's
been attributed to many people but
something like judging a fish by how
well they can fly that idea of what
we're doing in school is kind of having
a very narrow focus on what we're our
expectations are and if people don't
succeed within those expectations
perhaps we're not looking at the other
areas where they are excelling
I also definitely relates with me as
well I've had many moments like that or
it's just like oh this person's just
like doesn't have a time or is not
willing or doesn't have the interest but
then you see them in another area
there's like wow I had no idea that you
were this skilled in other areas so with
computational thinking Stacey you had
mentioned integrating that into the
classroom I've gotten a lot of questions
about teachers who are like hey there's
this new thing I don't really know what
computational thinking is I don't really
know how to implement in my classroom I
just know I'm being told to do that what
would you recommend for teachers who are
in that position yeah I think one of the
simplest ways to integrate it is to just
start using the terminology so to start
identifying algorithms when you are
using them in the classroom to start
identifying or talking about looking for
problems and fixing them as debugging so
that's that's something simple you can
do I don't think it goes as deep as we
want to go but it's a starting point
yeah one of the things that I've kind of
run into a problem with is like the use
of terms that are situational like
algorithms applying that to every
step-by-step process kind of
decontextualized as the word and kind of
waters it down so I've had a problem
with it we're like oh well the recipe is
an algorithm or directions to how to get
somewhere as an algorithms like well
yeah so those are all like kind of like
algorithms but a recipe is a recipe
because this is very own step-by-step
process for a specific thing and an
algorithm for computer programming is
it's very specific thing so yeah it's
kind of like an algorithm but not really
like when people are like oh yeah you're
tying your shoes that's
algorithm well sort of but not really
depends on the context do you have
anything that you'd like to add to that
Peter in terms of like any advice you'd
give to somebody who's trying to
integrate CT into their class first of
all in response to what you've just
mentioned you should read up on some of
the stuff that Peter Denning has written
about algorithms he has that same
viewpoint that has been an interesting
discussion that different computational
thinking researchers and practitioners
have had that debate in regards to how
to get it going in the classroom I think
for me the key to computational thinking
is automation that's at the core of the
process and so if we get people thinking
about automation and there's a lot of
different ways of doing that I think
what will happen is they'll approach
problem solving in a computational
manner just like at the core of the
scientific method the core of that is
causation identifying causation right a
causes B this results in that and I
think with computational thinking people
started talking about it because they
wanted to describe what was happening
when people were coding and so to me I
know it's grown to be much more than
that
and in some cases doesn't even include
coding is part of the definition which
to me is silly because it emerged out of
a description of what happened when
people were coding people do need to
look at coding as part of computational
thinking
I think coding is to computational
thinking as writing is to literacy in
other words there's a lot more to
literacy than just writing but it's the
creative side of things right and once
people see it that way once teachers
think in terms I'm less interested in
the terminology and more interested in
the thought processes that are going on
and once they start thinking in terms of
this is a creative process right and
that's why I emphasize the coding side
of things because that is the the
creative aspect of things they'll end up
thinking computationally right I don't
need to necessarily point out that
they're they're thinking you know that
they're decomposing they're finding
patterns or going through these
different sub processes that we've
identified with computational thinking
if teachers see it as a form of
expression then what they're going to do
is enrich their students opportunities
in the classroom back in the day we
could express our thoughts about the
paper by writing about it right and then
we got sort of this multimedia
revolution and we could express our
ideas by May
a multimedia presentation videos and
powerpoints and other different types of
things
well if you just add coding to that list
is it's another way of expressing the
types of things you can do or is amazing
right and if you start with just these
elementary coding programs right or you
don't necessarily need to type
everything out there these block based
programs you can have kids create
interactive demonstrations that express
their understanding of a certain topic
in a really engaging in fun way and that
gets at that process of thinking in
terms of automation so my recommendation
for anybody who wanted to think about it
in the classroom is that its core just
think about coding is a creative form of
expression and if you can find a way to
harness that you're now giving your
students and yourself a new way to
express ideas to explore ideas and to
create engaging and interactive types of
experiences so how did you respond to
like the primary grades in particular
I've seen some teachers who are like oh
we're learning computational thinking a
hundred percent without using any sort
of device so all we're going to do is
unplugged activities and so we're gonna
engage in all of the CT concepts and
learn those but we're not going to use
any kind of coding practices on an
actual device I might approach that in
the same way so first of all I think the
unplugged activities are wonderful I've
used them when I teach coding because a
really good way of getting at the
concepts but just like again the idea
for me is coding is to catch people
thinking as writing is to literacy it's
almost like saying we're gonna teach
literacy and we're not gonna do any
writing right so great
go forth but you're limiting what you're
going to be able to do now is writing
difficult yes actually it is especially
if you haven't done it before are people
gonna struggle yes is there stuff gonna
be any good probably not if you went
back and read what you wrote in first
grade you'd be like wow I was disgusted
to me you know I mean but think about it
from a first graders perspective like
what they've written there you're like
oh that's pretty good for a first grader
we just need to think of coding the same
way people don't need to think of coding
in elementary school like computer
science in college we don't have that
expectation for any other subject area
right the way that people think about
mathematics and
College is not the way that we expect
them to think in elementary school the
same for me is true coding there are
some fundamental concepts and the tools
are there now to enable people to be
able to create without having to have a
super deep understanding they can
understand the fundamentals so that's
kind of how I would approach it I think
I love I love the unplugged activities
but if you limit yourself to those you
likewise you're limiting yourself to the
potential things that your students can
create yeah it can decontextualize it
and I really like your analogy with
literacy and Stasi if you have anything
you want to add to it go for it I think
the reason I don't have a very good
response to how do we integrate it is
that I think we should teach
computational thinking by teaching
coding right there two basic approaches
to teaching computational thinking one
is to integrate it across the subjects
and the other is to teach coding there
might be some some other options but I
think those are the two main ones and I
go with the latter let's teach coding
and so I think the approach of trying to
integrate it across the curriculum can
work I'd rather see a complete
integration let's develop a math and
coding curriculum or a math and CT
curriculum where it's totally integrated
we're doing both all the time
throughout like there might be some
lessons where we don't do any coding
there might be some lessons where we
don't do a lot of math but let's make it
a fully integrated curriculum rather
than just trying to have a lesson here
and there that integrates computational
thinking concept with what you just said
I'm curious how has your background in
education kind of informed your
understanding of CS or CTE or like
specifically what you were just talking
about with integration I have taught
first grade
I've taught middle school and I've
taught college and you know I know
enough about development that I know
it's better to start young right I I
learned coding when I was 40 and I feel
like I can I can learn to code I can do
this and I don't think it's too late for
adults to learn these skills but I know
that my kids are much faster at coding
they can just do it better and more
naturally than I can because they
started younger that's one of the things
that just starting young is the benefit
and what about you Peter how has your
background kind of informed your
approach to CS or CT because you've
mentioned a couple of times like
contextualizing like what made you
really focus on that in particular or
other areas I agree with what Staci is
said about integrating that's a good
thing to do it's a hard thing to do -
yeah good like full-on integration can
be difficult but I think it helps to
have specialists working together a good
math teacher and a good coding teenager
but have them work together that's where
I've seen things be successful where we
expect one teacher to do everything I
think that is usually recipe for burnout
and cynicism was the teachers will often
become maybe a little jaded that they
especially at elementary level we expect
elementary teachers to be generalists
they have to learn everything and at the
same time we want them to be specialists
right so hey you need to know everything
so you're generalist now we're gonna
have a two-year training on math and
you're becoming a math specialist and
then we have a two-year literacy
training and then as to your science
training and and I can understand when I
go in and they tell teachers and
professional development this is what
we're gonna do if they're thinking this
is just the way the pendulum has swung
but by the end of the year it's gonna be
something different and so I think more
than anything one of the things I've
learned from this is we need to respect
teachers but take advantage of
collaborative efforts and people's
different abilities to have them work
together and I know that's a hard thing
it's easy as a teacher to just do your
own thing I'm a professor I I do my own
thing all the time and I get away with
it because my students are great they're
graduate students so you know how to
play the game of school really well by
the time they get to me I can be an
awful teacher and they're gonna do fine
you know so that's different at the
elementary level we also expect them to
be the best teachers so I think it's
it's high expectations of elementary
teachers but yeah if we can sort of take
advantage of hey you are generalist but
this is your area of emphasis and I am a
specialist and this is my area of
emphasis and instead of just
specializing in our silos if we can
specialize together I think that's
probably what I've seen my experience
going into different schools
doing math integration types of things
which is what I did for a lot of my
doctoral work that seems to be a more
effective approach where teachers get
excited about the area that they're
digging deep in rather than burned out
from being the person that has to do it
all
so you mentioned silos like the content
silos and whatnot that's something that
I had read about and was like oh yeah
that makes sense that we should try and
break those down and it wasn't until I
did my dissertation that I really saw
like what that could potentially look
like and how diverse the amount of
typically separated content areas could
all kind of come together to create
something interesting and so that really
changed my own perspective so I'm
curious for each of you how has your own
research kind of impacting your
understanding of Education when we were
looking at what factors influenced kids
attitudes toward coding we found that
peer and parent influence mattered a
whole lot and we hadn't known that going
in we hadn't you know that wasn't part
of the research because people who were
measuring student attitudes toward
coding we're looking at their gender and
their age and not a lot of other factors
right and so even though there was
research out there about family support
and influence it wasn't in the studies
we were looking at so yeah that's
something where our research affected my
view of Education we still have to
figure out how to how to use that like
how do we then involve parents better in
kids education and there are a lot of
people researching that do you have any
off-the-cuff like hey I think we might
need to look into doing a B or C more or
XYZ less in order to help with that in
my work with boot-up where we're looking
at bringing coding and computational
thinking into schools I really want
there to be a component I want schools
to commit to involving parents I want
there to be some kind of family night at
the school we want schools committing to
this because we know that's gonna make
our program more effective we also want
teachers committing to teaching coding
or computational thinking every week
because we know that's gonna make it
more effective yeah it has been
frustrating see some districts like yeah
we're gonna do coding
gonna do it one hour a semester it's
like that's not and uh right what about
for you Peter how's your research kind
of informed your understandings of
Education well I think Stacy is nailed
it there especially in terms of where my
interest is right now the effect that
family has on education and the social
structures that are surrounding kids is
it's hard to understate how important
those structures are so there's not much
more I can add to what Stacy said about
that in terms of my research I had a few
personal experiences that can support
that like Stacy said I shouldn't we
should have been surprised by this right
it was such a powerful effect mediating
effect for everything else in her
dissertation that we found for kids
interests their perception of coders and
the utility they basically all funneled
through this social influence factor of
peers and parents what kids thought
their peers and parents thought so you
know a couple of social factors really
strong on what people decide to study
and what they take an interest in right
anytime that we've offered an
after-school Club when I first started
doing those after-school clubs when I
first started teaching coding I remember
one town south of here we said okay
we'll do it later Robotics Club and you
have a limited space and limited
robotics so I said we can take a max of
I think I said 18 kids because I had
nine kits and I wanted to pair them up
in a kit and that was the capacity of
the room so we sent out a notice to
parents and we said we'll just take
sixth graders and we sent out the notice
right as I was leaving work on a Monday
afternoon so it was almost it was like
five o'clock
sat down hit like quarter to seven check
my email and we had 68 requests to join
that Robotics Club these were not the
kids that were asking it was the parents
within two hours we had just it was I
mean it was incredible you know four
times the number of people that we could
even take at one school and every time
that we offered something after school
like this the parental interest is so
high so like Stacy said I should have
been surprised
I knew this might there's my own
personal experience and so and I live
years ago decades ago at this point I
actually taught adult literacy in rural
Mexico and so I lived out in in what's
called a nihilo in Mexico there's no
plumbing there was electricity and the
helos and there were probably about 150
people who lived in the village that I
lived in and that's if they were all
there most of the men were seasonal
workers in the United States but I
learned something there about education
and dedication to education there were
some fathers there who would walk their
children to the next village over and it
would take them a good hour and a half
to get there and make sure they could
get a bus so that they could get the bus
their kids could get the bus and go into
the city which was another hour away so
that they could have a proper education
and I was teaching their father how to
read right but he knew the value of
learning he was willing every day to
walk his kids an hour and a half three
hours right because time to go there and
back and wait for his kids and then
their kids his kids had to go in to get
the bus to go in the city and the bus
came once a day in those villages and so
it was this idea of parental influence
is so strong and just society's
influence right my wife she's from
another country and the way that she
thinks about education is strongly
shaped by the society that she grew up
in as well so yeah I think we really
need to when we were saying we're gonna
teach kids to code it's so much more
than just teaching kids and teaching
their teachers right because that's
where a lot of my emphasis is on
preparing the teachers but these family
code nights and how we talk about coding
and computational thinking in society
makes a really big difference on whether
they see it as useful whether they have
an interest in it and their perceptions
of learning to code and to think
computationally overall yeah I'm I'm
curious if a decade from now if
performance pay is still gonna be a
thing for educators because yes
educators can't have a large impact on
students however it is not the only
thing that is impacting students there's
all these things outside of that teacher
to student relationship that is
informing how well they can or cannot
learn something or how much time they
can spend on it absolutely but I guess
we'll find out I'll set a reminder ten
years from now how's this going
were there any surprises in your
research and have any of those surprises
changed your own like philosophies or
pedagogy so I'm not sure this was a
surprise more of a confirmation but wow
look at the effect of it and some other
research that I've done where we
surveyed teachers Cate teachers around
the world and we asked a bunch of
different questions you know how pretty
for this and of course not a surprise
for teachers to say nope I didn't have
any computer science background people
are teaching computing at the elementary
and middle school levels they're not
people who decided to go into computer
science education the one thing that has
stood out to me as I've talked to
teachers is how often they say when we
asked them what changes have you noticed
in your students since you've started
teaching this is teacher saying my kids
are more resilient that word keeps
popping up resilient huh
the idea that they persevere through
hard problems more because of what
they've been learning and coding and
some of the teachers have said and it's
flowed over into other areas I think
there's two messages there one of the
messages is this is a really valuable
sort of soft skill right it's a
disposition rather that can be developed
by learning to code then people can
persevere through hard problems but the
other message there is if you're
persevering through hard problems that
means that you're struggling and this is
something that when I go a night and I
try to get people excited about coding I
know teachers are very hesitant when I
first say you're gonna learn to code
today right and they're like no no I I
don't beep nothing and then we do some
unplugged activities and at the end of
the first day they're like I can totally
do this they're super excited we give
them another week of that and they're
like Mia
I code this is fantastic I code all over
the place and they're starting to think
coding is easy and then we ask them to
do something and then they learn about
the perseverance all right they learn
like oh this this just got hard and I do
think that's something that has stood
out to me
his teachers saying students are
sticking through the struggle and many
other students are doing well I don't
think that's necessarily true of all
students i I've been watching different
teachers I've taught kids myself I know
that some kids hit the difficulties and
they don't deal with them as well
but just seeing the preponderance of how
often teachers are saying you know kids
have become more resilient failure is
less of a summative evaluation right on
who they are or their intelligence and
more formative evaluation formative
feedback on their program at the time
it's less of a an indictment of their
intelligence and more of just the
process of learning which is if there's
one thing I could take away from this
whole you know teaching kids to code
that would be it
right is hey you know you've just
learned how to push through struggle
that's that's fantastic
and for anyone who's listening for
context Peter's not just looking at like
a single district in a rural area with
like five teachers like this the idea
that resilience is coming up is across
many districts in many different parts
of the world yeah this was a study when
we put out I we had teachers from 23
different countries respond and we asked
them this question and that was it was
an open-ended question they could have
said anything because had kids wear
different shoes but we had enough
teachers say that they noticed kids were
resilient that was something that
definitely something I want to look into
further and look at sort of that whole
idea of productive struggle because it
is there is struggle right I see that
with my own students when I'm teaching
them to code
I just got my student ratings from this
past semester so I'm definitely reading
about it right now they're like this was
really hard you know I'm like yeah it
was really hard but I really love it
when they say this was really hard and I
didn't realize how much I would enjoy
the struggle my students say that I'm
like oh that is that's fantastic right
she saw the struggle and she enjoyed the
struggle because there's value in
overcoming and in pushing through things
and we can get kids to see that and then
they can learn anything what's something
that you wish more people kind of have
read about or understood about
computational thinking or computer
science in terms of educators like what
I'm what I'm kind of getting at is are
there any like misconceptions or things
that you just wish more people knew like
hey just stick with it like have some
grit or resilience or things like that I
don't know if you've seen the movie it
doesn't seem like an old movie to me but
I think it's like almost 20 years old
now but cast away yeah oh wow that is
like 20 years ago
and now my kids like that old movie I
think it's not that where he creates
fire and he's like look what I have
created he's got this higher good that
to me is the feeling that I get when I
make something you know and I see that
in my students and they see that
excitement I want everybody to have that
excitement if people can taste that
excitement it's mundane fires been
around for a long time and what they're
gonna create especially when they're
starting out whether it's computer
science in college or computational
thinking in kindergarten when they're
starting out what they're gonna make is
something that somebody else has already
made and it's not that impressive right
but it should be impressive to them and
they should feel like looking at the
bonfire and saying look what I've
created and I see I see people do that
with hello world they're like look yeah
right it's a button and it says hello
you know and I made it and that's I
think that I think there's there's
something about creation in all of us I
think we're creators humans by nature
are creators and so this ability you
know going back like I had mentioned in
terms of it's a form of expression maybe
another way of saying that is it's a
form of creation and people can express
themselves in all sorts of ways there's
no limits it's infinite the
open-endedness of coding if there's one
thing I wish everybody knew about it was
how exciting it can be to see something
that you have created work right however
simple that might be there's power in
creation yeah and I think having that
perspective if you've been doing sing
something for a long time being able to
celebrate those small wins and really
kind of recognize oh yeah wow that seems
really simple to me that was quite an
accomplishment or their ability level as
something we had to focus on when I was
going through like the music ed program
was a lot of undergrads in particular
are like at professional or near
professional level playing and then the
first time they go into like a
fifth-grade band they're just like why
do they sound so bad and it's like well
you sounded that bad too
it's just been a long time since you've
sounded that way yeah remember what it
felt like for everything to be new what
do you wish there is more research on
that could inform your own practices I
wish there were more long term
search I think it's coming it's just
this is new so we need to know that
teaching coding is improving student
learning somehow we need to know what
the outcomes are so that we can decide
how important this is to teach because I
think we're still figuring that out and
trying to determine whether it is
important enough whether the benefits
are great enough to give up other parts
of the curriculum great answer can I
just give it a start and I'll be like
yeah that was good plus one I've
mentioned a lot of these already
anything the support structures there's
one thing I wish I knew I wish I knew
the future I think it'd just convince
people how important it is I think
things are gonna change and that sounds
so obvious because they always do but if
you could help people see how things are
gonna change people don't complain about
a lack of blacksmiths right but
blacksmithing was a super important part
of the advancement of us of society back
in the day well we don't complain about
it because the jobs that we automated
that blacksmiths used to do and we've
replaced with other things and so I
think the same way if we can help people
have a vision for the future and
understand how the future could be and
we could really help people you know
progress a little bit more I agree with
Stacy about long-term research it's
harder to do long-term research just
because the nature of being a researcher
you want to publish quickly so you know
a four-year study now that that's a long
time to to take for one article you know
our one study so but we really do need
those things we need to see what the
long-term effects are of people learning
Temptation thinking and coding and
they're not all gonna be rosy right but
how do we best support that so going
back to the question of the issue of
social structures how do we support
people through this and those people are
the kids as well as the teachers I think
teachers are the Gateway for all of this
learning that's going to happen
Elementary we've done a really good job
of getting coding started in elementary
school I see now the teachers that
personally need the most support I think
are our middle school or early secondary
teachers because we get the kids all
excited they're kind of like the
teachers after the first week of
training they're like this is awesome I
love coding I can totally do it but you
know they're still writing elementary
stuff and
moving them to that next level I think
is the next challenge is how do we get
the teachers to that next level and then
likewise get students to the next level
so that by the time they get to high
school they are nearing that college
level of thinking and really starting to
think in terms of what can they create
that'll make things better yeah and then
as the middle school improves in terms
of like increasing complexity and
whatnot then that's going to impact high
school which is then going to impact
college and then the undergraduate
programs the NCS are now gonna have to
go and figure out okay now we've got an
extreme range of like people are coming
in who have been in this from K all the
way through 12 been doing coding and CS
and then some people might not have any
experience with that so yeah that'll be
an interesting problem for them to work
through yeah let's make that promote
let's create the problem okay I'm in so
you had mentioned kind of like the
difficulties of spending four years like
creating a single article like if you're
doing like ethnic graphic study or
something like how hard it is to do this
longitudinal stuff I kind of want to
like vamp on that like it is hard in
general just being a scholar in
education and working in the field of
education I'm curious how the two of you
have kind of tried to stave off that
burnout or just getting overwhelmed and
in being in the field as researchers and
educators studying interesting things
helps what I did for my first several
years of being a professor I kind of
felt like I hit a point where I knew
what every study on that subject was
gonna say it didn't seem novel to me
anymore I thought it was all relevant
basically the study said yeah absolutely
do this it was kind of like saying now
we know that exercise is good right so
do it right now I know you can really go
into depth on that a lot more and really
study the different types of exercise
for me right now what's keeping
everything going is the fact that I find
coding and computational thinking super
interesting it's such a new area
especially in terms of the younger
grades but I think there's so much for
us to learn and so my problem right now
is more about what to focus on then how
do I keep going I've got two
things out there just looking at my
schedule just today right I've got like
five different topics that I'm working
on different research teams with today
that's probably a bad thing how do you
narrow that down though how do you like
focus on what you're gonna say no to and
what you're gonna say yes to there is a
lot yeah in this case Peter does not say
no I say no I am selective I set
boundaries
I'm pretty sure Peter does not say no
you know that I'm going to say no to
some things not enough things so that's
part of the problem especially when it
comes to this because it's stuff that I
love so yeah part of it is learning how
to say no learning how to say maybe
later to prioritize and say right now I
can do this I can't do seven things at
once and do them well but I can do you
know I can do two things and do them
well and get seven things done faster if
I take them two at a time than if I
write so yeah so I'm probably not the
best asking that it stays mental and I'm
not the best to ask because I'm just
beginning my professional career but you
know I think a lot of students burn out
of grad school as well one of the keys
is to set boundaries to be selective
about the projects you say yes you think
another way to avoid burnout though is
to work with people that you enjoy
working with not just the subjects you
enjoy but the people you enjoy and that
you can motivate each other to get
things done especially if you are
meeting regularly that regular meeting
that we have was motivation to get
something done
by the time we were meeting each week
yeah your comment about grad school one
of the reasons why I asked this question
of every guest is because I want people
to have like a variety of tools to
choose from like oh I can try this to
help out with that because grad school
can really mess you up in particular and
being in the field of education it you
can definitely get burned out I know a
lot of teachers who quit within the
first five years of being in the field
and not knowing how difficult it is in
advance of it and not having some tools
to be able to cope with it it's it can
make a difference whether you do it or
not know that stuff so I'm curious how
have you both like continued to iterate
on your own abilities so I'm really
a practice nerd in that I'm always
trying to find ways to improve whatever
it is that I'm passionate about and when
it comes to teaching what are you two
doing to kind of try and improve
yourself as a teacher I try to be
reflective I never teach the same course
twice meaning I might teach the same
course but I don't teach it in the same
way I'm always do something I'm trying
to seek feedback and then implement that
feedback I don't like the poor will know
the summative assessment at the end the
feedback from the students that's
anonymous that says you were a crap
teacher and I didn't learn anything you
know so I'm trying to ask them during
the process what's working for you
what's not working for you so I can try
to change in the middle and not wait
till the end my poor students their
guinea pigs I'm trying new things out
all the time sometimes it works
sometimes it doesn't I'll usually have a
feedback session in class midway through
and towards the end for the same reasons
that Stacie's mentioned
I'll try things I'll actually ask
students who have completed the class
what I'm thinking about changes to
classes in the future I'll say hey guys
something about changing this you've
been through the class what do you think
and it has stopped me several times from
making certain changes because I found
out the prayer students really liked
some things that I was like God maybe
I'll take that out yeah as far as other
skills projects this is what I need to
say no more but like making a project
out of something and making yourself
accountable like you Stacey nailed it
there things get done way better when
you're accountable to somebody on a
regular schedule it's not surprising but
I operate that way if I know that I have
to meet with someone at a specific time
they're expecting something to be done
that's what's gonna push you to get it
done on time so projects other people
and always be seeking feedback it also
resonates actually with him McKay said
he's always trying to get feedback and
grow from that and whatnot so do you
have any questions for myself for the
field at large well I'm wondering what
Buddha is doing to adapt to our new and
evolving reality right because Buddha
does a lot of in-person training are you
shifting some of that in-person training
to online training and are you finding
ways to then provide the kind of support
online that people expect from your
in-person support yeah for context so we
provide in
percent PD usually six hours workshops
basically and we do about eight of them
over the course of two years and we
really value in person stuff after the
those workshops to be able to go into
the classroom and like model what it
looks like with your kids obviously
things have changed with co19 so what we
have been doing is virtual PD sessions
where we are like going into zoom and
we're demonstrating okay here are some
of the pedagogy that we would have done
in person in terms of like one-on-one
asking questions and guiding techniques
and things like that and facilitating
we're gonna model it in zoom and show
you how you can do that in breakout
rooms or we're gonna model it using like
a group setting in video conferencing
and kind of talk about how to do that we
don't think it's as effective as
in-person but we are doing it and we are
also offering stuff like if you would
like us to do a virtual model teaching
with one of your classes like where kids
get on and do video conferencing we can
do that as well so what we're gonna do
from here on out is if things improve
and schools resume as normal for next
school year which who knows if that's
gonna happen because we're recording
this in like early May but if things do
resume as normal
we're at least gonna give the option of
if you want to do one or two PDS online
so you can learn how to facilitate
online settings and see what this looks
like in an online setting so you can
potentially apply it for future times
where you need to teach online that'll
be an option for each district otherwise
we'll go back to focusing on in-person
stuff because we really believe that
that's like the best way to do things I
would like to talk about the question of
should computer science be required in
Emma tree yeah what are your
perspectives on that I can see both
sides I am a little bit on the fence
still so I think the argument against
requiring computer science in ka is
mainly what Peter talked about before is
that I really reluctant to put another
mandate on teachers and schools because
they're already doing so much right
there's so much we could be teaching but
we can't teach at all and I don't want
to require teachers to learn a whole new
literacy and I think from the teachers
perspective they could say we don't have
time to
yes we don't have the money to pay for
the training maybe we don't have the
technology we don't have the money for
that those are all compelling arguments
on the other side though you could argue
that this is if not an essential skill
then is certainly a very useful skill
and it may it's it's on its way to
becoming in a central scope wait wait
I'm talking about coding and
computational thinking but there I think
the people who are arguing that a lot of
them are in the industry and so I'm
reluctant to let people in industry
decide educational policy but you also
then if we believe that teaching coding
is advantageous to students and I do
believe that then you introduce the
issue of equity if coding advantages
students and we're not requiring coding
for all schools a lot of students aren't
gonna have access to it and so then
they're at a disadvantage
to me that may be the most compelling
argument for requiring coding in k-8
schools yeah I have a very unpopular
opinion about this and it might surprise
some people so I during my Master's
heard about Sudbury schools so I don't
know if either of you are familiar with
the Sudbury model but it's this idea
that kids come to this building and
they're able to learn whatever they want
and teachers are like viewed as staff
members and on par with like
kindergartners so kindergartners get to
vote on budget decisions and have equal
weight as like some of the teachers who
are there and like all this like wait
what's going on this this is actually
has happened for a long time and like
one of the stories is like this kid just
came in and for like two years straight
and was just like I just want to fish
and just fished every day for two years
straight and then one day was like I
want to learn astrophysics and then like
douve deep into that so like that's one
of the extreme stories of something
that's come out of that I'm a huge fan
of cultivating individualized expertise
without mandating people to learn
specific subject areas I was very
passionate about music and if that's all
I could make during school during the
however many hours is there per day I
would have loved that I hated pretty
much every other subject hours in if I
could have died of deep into that that
would have been amazing for me and I
would have really been able to thrive in
that kind of a setting however I think
kids need to have access to all of these
different things and have the
opportunity to explore those things and
if you want to become a generalist at
everything then cool you should be able
to have that opportunity but the more we
like mandate we need to do this and we
need to learn this and we need to learn
that then it's now okay you're gonna
spend five minutes a day on all these
essential things but you're not actually
really gonna dive deep into any of them
and I know that's an unpopular opinion
but that's it is what it is
and I don't ever see that really like
reaching mainstream in terms of what
schools are gonna actually do no but I
love it and if I had known about Sudbury
schools that's what I would have wanted
some of the kids do I love the idea of
on a story but even Montessori is too
rigid because you have to learn things
in order yep and one of the things that
I think a lot of us are learning with
the whole Kovach conditions right now is
how to manage our children's education
right and they're learning rather how
much I think most of us are maybe barely
even managing we're doing the Sudbury
model at my house thank you it's been
interesting you know with my kids I
tried to encourage them and by trying to
encourage them that translates to I
bribe my children right using all sorts
of behavioral models and other things
right like I want you to have a goal
right and once you have an intellectual
goal which you have a physical goal I
want you to have these different goals
that you're working through each week
and we'll do things to help you
accomplish those things so you got to
choose it and dig deep and one of the
things I've learned is that they still
need some structure it depends on the
child different kids need different
types of structure right one of my kids
he's just wildly skilled and talented in
multiple areas but if it's not something
he's interested in doing and if it's not
his idea even if it's one of the areas
that he loves he won't do it right right
so yeah that's an interesting model so
in terms of your question of should all
teachers learn to code you know I think
there's benefit my real question was
should all schools be teaching kids to
code not should all kids but should all
schools so maybe not all grades maybe
not all teachers but they should all
have that opportunity as what you're
saying yeah I think so it'd be great to
have the opportunity with teachers who
were interested in it right and in that
case you know on the one hand do we
require teachers to learn it if we say
no just to be
we're interested we may end up missing
some people who don't know that they're
interested yeah you know most elementary
school teachers elementary ed teachers
when they take my coding class right now
for Allied teachers I don't think any of
them go into the class thinking cool I'm
gonna learn how to code usually they go
to class the first day and they're like
why do I need to learn this right and
then by the end of the semester I still
have that attitude from some students
and others that it's unlocked something
in them right and they're like wow this
was super useful this was super fun I
really enjoyed this and they're gonna be
the teachers that are gonna be
transformative at their kids schools but
only because they had to learn it yeah
it's a tough question right if I can
only teach people who are interested I
mean ask any teacher they would love to
teach a class of interested people right
right that's kinda what graduate school
is in many regards graduate students are
great because they they're all pretty
they've decided they want to be there
which is different than you know
formative education where people have to
be there right
yeah and I've seen that difference right
in teaching and I've seen that when I've
taught at the elementary levels and I've
seen it and I've taught adults to read
right and I seen what I've taught adults
to code and it is it's the challenging
it's a tough question do we require it
of everybody no not everybody
necessarily needs to learn it but if we
don't we'll would be prepared for the
future we may not be right so then I
think there is something where we need
to look at it and take a serious look at
so everybody needs to have an experience
with it then they can decide whether or
not they want to go further with it yeah
and that's one of the counter-arguments
that I totally get with like my
approaches there are many things that
I've done in life where once I tried it
I got hooked on just like this is
amazing like I want to keep learning
about this subject area and had I only
focus on one subject area and not
learning about all these other things
then I would have never found those
interests so while I really wanted
cultivating individual expertise and
whatnot there is also like the balance
between diving super deep and one thing
and also kind of learning a little bit
about everything are there any other
questions you'd like to talk about one
question I'm interested in is you've
worked with teachers all over the
country
what is so I guess two questions one
what is the one piece of advice you
would give teachers about learning to
code
- what's the one thing that has stuck
out as you have worked with teachers and
all sorts of different contexts and
you've been a teacher obviously yourself
at the same level so what's the one
thing that stuck out and what is the one
thing that you would recommend one thing
that I in general have recommended that
all teachers understand is there are no
silver bullets just with anything and
the more perspectives that you can learn
on how to bring to the table the better
so even if you're diving deep into
learning one approach or one way or
whatever learn others and try and find
ways to incorporate those because every
kid that you're working with is gonna be
different than their peers and so while
you might have like these tools in your
box that are great for like 90% of your
kids well what about the 10% who aren't
you need to find ways to that you can
engage them and work with them well
obviously take into account everything
that we talked about with like the
social interactions that are influencing
what they're doing but that's just the
general recommendation that I give can
you repeat the other part teachers to
code all over the country one of the
things that we have noticed working with
educators across the country is that
there's just like general misconception
and fear about how difficult or easy
coding is and so a lot of educators go
into this very hesitant or reluctant and
or even fearful because like it's just a
scary thing and I don't know how I'm
gonna do this thing and even if we're
like yeah but we have taught
kindergarteners how to do it so
certainly you as somebody with like
degrees and figure out this thing that a
kindergartner can there's still that
fear and it's not until that a teacher
actually dives into it and tries it then
they're like oh I can totally do this
thing and honestly it's in the first
like ten minutes of our PD session where
we're just like immediately coding right
off the bat let's create something
simple and fun and then all of a sudden
that changes the dynamic in the room
like at first there might just be this
like palpable tension in the room of
like oh I don't know about this this is
scary and then there's like laughter and
sharing and conversing and it's fun and
it's just because they realized oh I can
do this thing after kind of like working
through some of those misconceptions
and that's consistent across like
whether we're working with like library
media specialists like general
elementary teachers or grade-level
specific ones or people who are teaching
technology classes or paraprofessionals
whatever like across the board just
going in and trying it suddenly not as
scary so now my cells like piece of
advice as well let's just jump in and
try it yeah definitely so where my
people go to connect with each of you
and the organizations that you work with
you can find me at you I use website I'm
in the instructional psychology and
technology department that's IP and T
probably the best place to go kind of
find what it is that I'm doing who I am
those types of things you can go to my
website which I hardly ever add anything
to Peter J rich calm and just if you
want to send an email
Peter underscore rich at BYU edu and I'm
in LinkedIn
Stacy s ta CIE Mason and you can also
email me at stacy underscore Mason at
BYU dot edu and that concludes this
week's episode of the cska podcast make
sure you check the show notes if you're
interested in some more information on
some of the topics that we discussed for
example some of the papers that were
mentioned in here or learning more about
Sudbury schools etcetera and just please
consider sharing with somebody who might
be interested in learning more about
what we discussed in this particular
episode stay tuned next week for another
unpacking scholarship episode and two
weeks from now will be another interview
I hope you're all having a wonderful
week and I will talk to you next week

Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode

Other podcasts that were mentioned or are relevant to this episode
- A Revaluation of Computational Thinking in K–12 Education: Moving Toward Computational Literacies
  - In this episode I unpack Kafai and Proctor’s (2021) publication titled “A revaluation of computational thinking in K–12 education: Moving toward computational literacies,” which summarizes three key framings of computational thinking and proposes computational literacies in place of computational thinking.
- Computational Literacies with Michael Horn
  - In this interview with Michael Horn, we discuss computational literacies vs computational thinking, power in literacy, cultural imperialism, the impact of programming language on identity, the intersections of music and CS, and so much more.
- Computational Thinking for Youth in Practice
  - In this episode I unpack Lee et al.’s (2011) publication titled “Computational thinking for youth in practice,” which provides examples of how middle and high school youth engage in computational thinking and introduces the “use-modify-create” framework (a three-stage progression through computational thinking).
- How to Get Started with Computer Science Education
  - In this episode I provide a framework for how districts and educators can get started with computer science education for free.
- Mind the Gap: The Illusion of Skill Acquisition in Computational Thinking
  - In this episode I unpack Bao & Hosseini’s (2023) publication titled “Mind the gap: The illusion of skill acquisition in computational thinking,” which compares learning, perceptions of learning, and confidence among adult learners participating in interactive, video-based, and text-based learning.
- Remaining Trouble Spots with Computational Thinking: Addressing Unresolved Questions Concerning Computational Thinking
  - In this episode I unpack Denning’s (2017) publication titled “Remaining trouble spots with computational thinking: Addressing unresolved questions concerning computational thinking,” which answers three questions: what is computational thinking, how do we measure students’ computational abilities, and is computational thinking good for everyone?
- More episodes related to community
- More episodes related to computational thinking
- More episodes related to unplugged
- All other episodes
Learn more about convergent cognition
- Read the section in my dissertation that discusses convergent cognition in relation to music and computer science
Computational thinking
- Read one of Peter Denning’s publications that problematizes computational thinking
- Read a paper Peter wrote on “international trends in computing education with primary-aged children”
  - This is the paper that Peter references in the podcast that investigated K-8 coding trends in 23 different countries
Learn more about programs like Family Code Night
Wikipedia article on Sudbury schools
Connect with Peter
Connect with Stacie
- Connect with Stacie on Linkedin
- Email Stacie
Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter