Transfer, Collaboration, Impact, Facilitation, and Much More with Sandra Ahlstrom

In this interview with Sandra Ahlstrom, we discuss transfer of understanding across programming languages, collaborating around computing, the impact we want to have as educators, and several more topics relevant to CSK8 educators.

Welcome back to another episode of the
CSK8 podcast my name is Jared O'Leary
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you to use today's discussion I'm going
to speak with Sandra ahlstrom from
Wyoming we're going to talk about
transfer of understanding across
programming languages we're going to
talk about collaboration the kind of
impact we want to have in the classroom
facilitation and differences in
engagement among gender types now a
quick note about that discussion in my
response I only mention male and female
and the reason why is because the
question was asked about the k-8 coding
classes that I facilitated and in those
classes I did not have kids who openly
identified to me as outside of male or
female binary now I say this as somebody
who actually does identify as non-binary
or gender non-conforming so even though
it was left out of that discussion I
just want to say to everybody else who
identifies this way
don't worry I got your back and if you
are very confused about what I'm talking
about
between gender and non-binary it's
basically saying that gender is a
spectrum and that there is not chose
male or female you want to actually
learn more about this there are some
resources in the show notes that will
link to nCWIT which is the National
Center for Women in information
technology and it can provide a lot of
helpful resources to help you support
marginalized gender identities and with
that being said I'm now going to start
the podcast with an introduction by
Sandy my name is sandy Ostrom and I am
currently the elementary technology
teacher from my district and I work at
five different elementary schools and I
teach 1st through 5th grade and my class
is an enrichment class so not all the
students come to me but I get quite a
few and I teach not only computer
science but I'm also mandated to teach
creative pieces where the students are
learning to be producers on technology
and not just consumers my biggest piece
though is definitely coding in my
curriculum and what state are you in I'm
in Wyoming
if you were to kind of write a book
about your CSN journey
what would the titles of the chapters
being you know I've taken kind of a very
winding road to where I am now so
probably my first chapter would be
English teacher know and then Air Force
career know and and then computer
science professional and finally a yes a
teacher a very very strong yes as to
what led you out of the classroom into
CS as a professional and then going back
into the classroom working with CS
education when I first went to school I
came out with a computer science degree
and I worked in that industry for
several years we decided to move to a
small town in Wyoming and so I thought I
was leaving technology behind and ended
up becoming a teacher and a position of
elementary technology teacher opened up
just as I was ready to start teaching
and so that's how I ended up back in
technology but also in teaching so it
was a perfect blend of what I really
wanted to do so what's something that
you believed when you first started
teaching that you no longer believed I
definitely thought that I had to be the
giver of knowledge you know that I had
to know it all before my students and
that I needed to impart my knowledge on
to them I definitely had that feeling
going into teaching I definitely don't
feel that way anymore especially with
computer science it's such a broad
subject and there are so many languages
and you know nobody can be the expert in
everything and really to be a good
computer science professional of
whatever you need to have the skills of
learning yourself you know not learning
specifics but being able to teach
yourself learn to do things on your own
that aren't cut and dry yeah so I have a
lot of questions about that
so what do you think led to your initial
belief that you needed to have all the
knowledge because like I had that as
well and I had my own thoughts on that
but I'm curious what yours are I don't
know if it's just from you know old
school when I was going to school I just
felt that the teachers knew and I didn't
maybe it was a little bit insecurity
just going in thinking that I needed to
have the answers right then or the
students whenever they had a question
mm-hmm I don't know where else I got
that attitude it was just something that
I was ingrained in me I guess I know for
me part of my transition was that when I
was in school and I was observing
teachers I didn't observe their thought
processes so I didn't know what they
were thinking why they were doing things
I didn't know when they may or may not
have had an answer so I always assumed
that they did but then when I actually
started teaching I was just like oh wait
I actually don't know everything that I
need to know to be able to do this I'm
constantly learning new things whether
it was Mars teaching music or teaching
coding or whatever that for me was kind
of like a catalyst that helped shift my
mindset away from that I'm wondering was
there anything in particular that like
led you to where you are now and why you
no longer believe that you know I think
it was when you know when I first
started this job coding was not a part
of my curriculum it was just long ago
when I started that there weren't all
these websites you know that you could
teach coding it wasn't something that
was that people were thinking about and
there weren't the resources to do that I
know I looking into it and I couldn't
find any way to really teach coding so
my job at the time was to teach basic
computer skills and that I mean you know
I had done so much teaching you know
Microsoft and everything that I did know
pretty much all the answers and when I
started going into coding realizing that
you know even if I do know really the
answers that's not the way to teach it
because seeing them discover things on
their own was so much more powerful and
so I think that's probably
more where I kind of made that
transition what languages have you
taught over the years block-based
you know a few different block based
menus and then I do some with Python and
some with JavaScript and I'm starting a
few kids on I know it's not technically
coding but HTML just touching a little
bit on that yeah one of the things that
I really like about coding is that the
concepts transfer over across languages
and practices but you need to learn the
specific syntax of it
so when I was learning Java to propose
to my wife through a mod that I was
working on like I knew how to do stuff
in other languages I was like I need to
figure out how to transfer this over and
so that also kind of carried over into
the classroom because in my class there
were several different languages that
kids could work on and they might ask me
a question or maybe like oh well I know
how to do that in scratch or I know how
to do that and Swift but I haven't
thought about it in JavaScript give me
as some time to like work through it on
my own so I don't know if that is kind
of similar for you since you've been
working with multiple languages yeah and
actually you know I've I've thought
about that in fact you know I really
what I'm doing every year I keep coming
back to wanting to expose them to more
than one as opposed to all in JavaScript
or you know Python and thinking you know
they would learn more of it but I also
think it's more important even you know
at this age exposure is even more
important than learning the specific
syntax you know memorizing the syntax of
any one language I want the kids to see
that you know there are different
languages they do similar things the
syntax is different they may you know
run a little bit different but that I
don't want them to get down one track
and not realize that hey you know I
could jump over here and learn this also
with the same understanding I guess yeah
there's definitely a balance you have to
strive for between like on one end of
the continuum it's like I only want to
teach one language on the other end of
the continuum it's like I want to teach
all the languages it's a balance of like
bread versus depth in that like if
you're just doing one you can
really go deep and dive deep in that one
but if you're doing all of them then
it's like okay we're learning how to do
just the bare minimum every single week
learning the same concepts but just like
typing in different syntax or dragging
in different syntax blocks right right
and so like that kind of becomes a
little bit of a problem
yeah I agree there there's a balance and
I've got really really limited time with
these kids so I try to make it really
count this is what I have decided it's
probably best for my students so what
you mentioned earlier with wanting to
see kids discover things how have you
seen discovery when it comes to transfer
from one language to another when we
talk about loops and conditions you know
really the basics and so when I
introduce you know a new you know the
other language then I try to talk about
the concept as opposed to that specific
language when I do JavaScript with them
they have cards that they type out code
in JavaScript and they have functions
and they have you know the same elements
or some of the same elements and so we
talk about how it's the same thing just
with a different syntax a different
language
mm-hm and so they discover that they can
do different things but they really are
using the same concepts and do you find
out for that like initial discussion
that it kind of snowballs from there or
do you have to keep reintroducing the
similarities over and over I don't think
I need to introduce it over and over I
don't really have a lot of time to spend
on that type of thing
so they really do seem to get you know
the older kids especially the you know
fourth fifth graders they do seem to
catch on that it is the same thing
mm-hmm
most of them yeah yeah one of my
favorite things is when I'd ask kids
like how did you know how to do that or
how did you create that thing and they'd
be like well I did this in scratch so I
wanted to see if I could figure out how
to do it in Java
or in whatever language that they were
working on no like some of that transfer
it was just like mind-blowing like the
stuff that they'd come up with like I
never even thought of that that's
amazing
doesn't that make you just happy as a
teacher yeah I mean it's just it's so
cool cuz then I learned something and of
course I tell them like hey I had no
idea this could happen now I can help
out other kids with it or hey can you go
show this other person who's working on
something similar that is one of the
most powerful things that I have found
is when I can you know I can't always do
it but when I can have the students
teach the other students and especially
the students who don't normally you know
they aren't normally the first to finish
or they aren't the one that sits with
all the other kids when I have them go
and share what they have learned it's
it's huge right yeah I highly recommend
that other people try that yeah one of
the things that I encouraged I had on
the board these four steps the first
step was basically always check the
resources of the comments so if there's
comments in the code read that if
there's resources like a tutorials or
help guides check that but then the next
two steps were to ask to peers and then
the final step was you can ask me but if
I'm working with somebody else then you
need to continue the first three steps
and odds are what would happen is they'd
ask me a question and be like oh you
know what Susie is really good at that
how about you go and speak with Susie
about how to do XY and Z yeah and that
is one thing that I do struggle with is
how to best use student students as a
resource you know you've got that like
we talked about you know the balance
well there's a balance between the
students being helpful and the students
not using their time wisely with their
friends but also you know what I mean
now that never happens but there's also
the balance I don't know how many times
I say that's not helping them that's
doing it for them and so I have to
really kind of monitor that some of the
students who you know just know you know
they can just do it
that those students don't go over to
help and I see them kind of move the
other student out of the way and they're
on their computer typing I'm like yeah
so it's kind of a complex thing to use
students as teachers yeah powerful but
tricky sometimes yeah no I think that's
a good caveat I like caution to consider
like yes a lot of people talk about
collaboration and peer-to-peer learning
and things like that but it has to be
modeled and it has to be reinforced
continuously oh yeah yeah and even if
you model it they see it and they know
it that doesn't mean that when they get
excited about doing it and I don't think
you know I really don't think it's they
don't ever seem like they're doing it
because they're not trying to help they
think that they're helping right and so
I always you know they oh thank you so
much for helping however that's you know
you need to let them do yep yeah I had
to constantly model that and remind kids
about that so it was a never-ending
thing but it was definitely worth all
the efforts cuz when I would see kids
helping in a way that I was trying to
encourage like it was just is awesome
yeah yeah you know another thing that I
really like to do but don't have a whole
lot of time to do I have you know my
students I see them 30 minutes once a
week and once you figure you know once
they finally get there and you know
transition time it's like twenty two
minutes so I don't have a lot of time to
you know have a whole class discussion
where the kids are driving a lot of it
and coming up to the board and you know
doing parts of it I just recently saw
another teacher doing that and she had a
whole hour with the kids and I was so
jacked it's yeah as she was able to take
that time you know teachers that are in
you know grade level classes that are
teaching this integrated I'm you know
I'm sure that they have more time to do
that kind of thing and and that's that's
wonderful yeah that is such
excellent point I mean the amount of
time that you have is really gonna
impact the kind of approaches or
pedagogy that you can actually use in
your classroom and I was in a similar
place when I was teaching journal music
that was once a week 30 minutes then
when I was teaching coding in the k-8
school it was three weeks straight where
they went every day of the week except
for Wednesday and it was 40 minutes
every time so it was great for
project-based learning because I knew
I'd see them for three weeks and like
they would have like almost every day
they'd be working on their project but
it wouldn't have worked as well when I
was teaching once a week for 30 minutes
each because that lost time like the log
in time and I forgot my password and all
that stuff
yeah and just you know getting settled
into a new you know a different room
different environment different kids
than you usually see in your class
because they're a mix from all the other
classes so you know there's a lot that
goes on and my class is in an enrichment
class so I do want it to be I don't want
to say less structured but I do want it
to be you know something extra and not
maybe as structured and by enrichment
some other districts they might refer to
that as like specials we call it
specials but we were you know I have
there's two other teachers that teach at
the same time one is Orchestra and one
is piano and all three of us the kids
have a choice of those three okay and
all considered enrichment classes okay
but they also call a specialist yes okay
so kids are opting in to one of those
three yes okay interesting it's an
interesting choice yeah and it's an
interesting set of classes I approve of
all three but it's just a right
interesting mix yeah I totally agree
that would actually be a tough choice to
pick from I know and the thing is all
the kids get general music so they they
still get music but the kids that want
to go above and beyond they take you
know whatever music class they want so
can you tell me a story about an
experience and
education that continues to impact you
today yes absolutely
there's probably a lot but I'm sure
there's a lot I should say really
there's probably two that definitely pop
up in my mind a lot I taught at a
college and as a facilitator and I ran
into one of my former students a couple
years later and she was so grateful for
my help she remembered me and I admit I
did not remember her and I had made an
impact on her life she would had a job
and she was so excited when she saw me
she just had to talk to me and tell me
that she was so appreciative to realize
that I had made an impact on somebody
and I felt terrible because I didn't
even recognize her but you know in
elementary school a couple of years ago
I had a student and I used to run the
yearbook or all the elementary schools
and so I would have kids apply to be on
the committee and I had this one student
who clearly had you know his home life
was probably not ideal I picked him to
be on the yearbook staff and he was just
I don't know how many times he asked me
why did you pick me and you really think
I would do a good job and he really was
amazed that I had faith in him that he
could do it you know these are not
computer science stories but so much of
being a teacher is connecting with the
kids you know a few of them we we do
make an impact you just I just think
about you know hopefully I'm making more
of an impact on more kids than I even
know those definitely make me think yeah
and it's nice knowing in the moment but
it's also nice knowing after the fact
even if you think like oh I I don't know
how great that was but then years later
when you run into a student like that
then you can find out oh that actually
did have a good impact right just you
know just the fact of caring and
getting to know them or you know having
that one-on-one with them mm-hmm some
kind of connection how does that those
stories can inform what you do in the
classroom today it definitely makes me
continue to strive to make connections
with my kids you know with so many in
and out it's really difficult to really
get to know all the kids it's it's
actually impossible to get to know all
the kids very well but I still try to
and I also especially try to make sure
that I make some connection with those
kiddos that you can kind of tell need
the extra extra love I guess I should
say mm-hmm give them extra kudos extra
encouragement and make sure that they
know that they're doing a good job yeah
and you're doing all that in 30 minutes
once a week which is difficult to do
yeah yeah and I point that out because
I've worked with some pre surface
pre-service and in-service educators and
like a lot of the music educators that
I've worked with they have similar
schedules where they just see kids so
infrequently or they're working with a
group of like a hundred plus kids all at
once yeah and is it it's a common
complaint that like I don't know how to
find the time for that so it's difficult
but striving for that I mean any way
that you can find time even is just a
moment or two to connect with kids
one-on-one it's just a good thing right
and that's why you know I have my
classes are anywhere from like 10 to 23
kids I know that I don't succeed every
class but I try to every class at least
say good morning to each step you know
student or have some something where
they're not just sitting there working
and I haven't acknowledged them in any
way I try very hard though I love what I
do I wish I had more time with them yeah
you know although that's probably the
story of every teacher yeah and more
time on specific areas and less and
others like less time testing more time
doing the stuff that matters yeah yeah
so what's what
some of the things that you kind of wish
you knew when you first started out so
like if there's a new CSS occator in the
audience maybe they've taught for a few
years but haven't done see us what kind
of advice could you give them definitely
advise them to not feel intimidated by
teaching computer science and that to be
the facilitator instead of the teacher
and you know the things that we talked
about previously about you know don't
you can't know everything and don't
expect to and the kids will learn and if
they can teach you something that is
even better for the students if they
know something that you don't know think
of how that would make them feel just
embrace the fact that you don't have to
know anything the other is it depends on
if it's like a school-wide or
district-wide definitely I would
encourage the teachers to try to get
training for the teachers you know some
sort of outside curriculum training to
help everybody be more comfortable be on
the same page to make a plan mm-hmm not
just have you know the teachers kind of
not I don't want to say floundering but
have a teachers trying to come up with
things on their own
you know get together and figure out
start slowly and have a plan yeah the
nice thing is there are a lot of
organizations that help with that so I
work at a non-profit that does that and
if you're interested in it you can find
stuff like that in the show notes but
one of the things that we do is work
with the district administrators on how
to implement things and we're doing is
months before we ever do the first PD
because we really want to help them make
this a smooth process and think through
all the things that they need to think
through like what about stipends what
about substitute time what and when are
we gonna do the PD how often it cetera
mm-hmm could you elaborate on what you
mentioned with being a facilitator what
does that mean and how is that differ
from what some people might think of as
typical teaching a facilitator in my
mind guides the students in directions
and doesn't take
you know you don't walk in front of them
you walk next to them in the journey
there are definitely times when you have
to get up and you have to be the teacher
you know you have to teach them you know
okay this is you know this is what a
loop is or you know things like that but
you're also bringing them in the
learning process with their ideas and so
on when the kids are learning how to
code and actually in their doing it you
need to let them struggle you need to
let them make mistakes and you need to
let them do some self learning as well
and it's really hard sometimes when
either you know the answer or you see
them really struggling and you're like
oh so sometimes I have to really stop
myself from doing that anyway so that's
what I think is a facilitator is
somebody that is next to them instead of
in front yeah I really like that
response that was great
okay so what's something related to
education that you're really good at or
knowledgeable of that most people don't
know about you I think probably one of
my strengths that most people probably
don't know about I guess would be being
able to teach basic concepts in a way
the kids understand there are a lot of
people and you know I mean most people
don't really know what I do in my class
and you know they're busy with their
thing and that's you know that's fine
but there are there's a lot more to
computer science than just coding and
you know block based coding and things
like that
there's a lot of concepts there's a lot
of thinking a lot of background
knowledge involved and I have really
been working hard the last few years
especially finding ways to teach these
in ways that the kids can relate to
unplugged
card games for conditions and you know
examples of what does what is a function
you know and using
fun examples for that so I think that
the kids you know I I have I'm finding
ways to teach these come you know just
fundamental computer science you know
coding concepts to the kids the whole
idea of binary is just mind-boggling it
still is to me you know to think
everything-everything and Saracen ones
and so I I you know talk about that I
touch on that so that the kids have some
sort of concept that you know there's
not really this video on your hard drive
or out in the cloud you know it's all
stored in a very very amazing way so
this is a very random aside the logo for
the podcast
it has binary in the background and it
does actually say something in that
binary so you were to type it out you'll
be able to figure it out so it's just a
little hint for everybody who's
interested in nerdy stuff like that I
actually created some worksheets with
binary to translate binary back and
forth
you know you're me I thought this was
great I love this and I did it with just
a few of the kids last year but boy I'm
gonna hit it this year little messages
and yeah was the ability to teach
fundamentals really well was that
something that you were always good at
or knowledgeable of you know I probably
I definitely have improved you know I
mean I've definitely worked at it I
think probably just being around the
kids that age group and having my own
kids you know grow up being able to kind
of have a good idea of what they relate
to and things like that I think that
helped me to be able to really sit back
I mean there are lots of times when I'm
just sitting there thinking about a
concept and trying to find something
relatable you know put a whole bunch of
ideas down and then see what you know
what really works in my mind and then
presenting it and honing it and you know
that type of thing so I definitely
learned over time it's good to hear
hopefully teachers who are new to CS
whoa
take that to heart and understand that
it it will come over time don't worry
about it you'll get better at it if you
keep working at it and you'll eventually
get more tools or tricks oh yeah yeah so
for some background information sandy
and I met what was it like two years ago
to help create the Wyoming and computer
science standards it you know it was
probably just about exactly two years I
can't believe time flies yeah so could
you share with everyone how you got
involved with the review committee or
the writing process
you know I just I saw the call for
people who want it you know for people
to apply to be on the committee to write
the very first Wyoming computer science
standards and I thought that would be
great at the time I was back taking
classes finishing up I have my
bachelor's in computer science and my
master's in elementary ed and I wanted
to get an endorsement for to be able to
teach computer science and so I was back
in school taking you know a few classes
that were required and I thought this
fits right in with me I think I think I
could help so I apply the an was on that
and I had learned I learned so much
being on that committee my job I don't
do you know I don't give grades and I
don't have any formal assessments you
know computer science and so I really
had a very vague understanding of how
standards work and no understanding of
how they're written and this was so
enlightening not only you know how the
process goes but also just having you
know seen and being part of concrete
standards that the kids should learn I
did you know I've taken those thoughts
into my class I I can't cover them all
in my limited time but I definitely have
those in my site as I'm teaching and I
would encourage anybody to you know look
at it your state and see if they're you
know looking for people to be
committees and we even had people on our
committee that weren't computer science
people there were parents and there were
people who were like science teachers
and there was a huge mix so it was very
very enlightening I yeah it was great
yeah and I reiterate all of that it was
a really good experience and so I'm in
Arizona and I was able to still help out
with writing the Wyoming computer
science standards it's just a matter of
knowing what the call is so if you are
in touch with your local state or if you
are looking at organizations like
code.org
then you can find when a state is
looking to create some new standards or
to revise their standards and you can
jump on board and it is a really good
process at least that one was faster I
don't know what the other states do but
I imagine they're similar hopefully yeah
hopefully because it was good I mean we
had such good discussions like really
deep discussions about pedagogy and just
like research and understandings and
like well what does this mean for this
type of class what does this mean for
this other type of class and there was
so much that went into writing those
standards yeah and and like you said too
that just the discussions with other
people their point of view or their
thoughts on it or you know different
ways of thinking about it that you know
we all have our own little way of
thinking about things it really opened
up my thought process looking at some of
this stuff it yeah it was just wonderful
what questions have I not asked you that
you would like to discuss I have a
question for you and related to this
when you were teaching computer science
what grades was it that you taught
through it was K through 8 through 8
okay hmm my classes are so predominantly
male did you find that the girls
continue to stay interested or did you
see a big difference in the interest of
the girls and the boys so it's a little
bit different in that my classes were
mandatory so everybody had to be there
where they wanted to
not the interest though did you see that
you know the kids were the girls
embracing it as much as the boys I
honestly did not notice a difference in
interest levels among genders like some
of the kids that I can think of right
off the top of my head who I had to have
that talk where you sit down and like
okay I'm giving you this opportunity
there and there's really cool thing and
you're not taking an advantage of it how
can I modify what I'm doing to make this
Steven cooler for you
most of those conversations were
actually with boys and most of those
conversations were resolved with okay so
you like playing video games right oh
well me too well did you know that you
can learn how to code your own video
game or you can modify it like basically
add in your own cheat codes etc etc and
then I'd like show them how to remix
something and then they'd like hit the
floor running and suddenly they actually
really like what they're doing so most
of those conversations were with boys
and most of the girls that I can think
of then have those conversations with me
there were a couple but not nearly as
many as the boys so the interest thing I
found that when you open up the space so
that kids can create something that
they're interested in it's it's an
almost a non-issue because it's like
well what is your interest
how can you explore that interest with
code or with computer science most kids
will run with that but if you were to
take an approach where it all right
we're all gonna learn this project and
everyone's going to create the exact
same replica of this thing then that's
where you can start to have some issues
among different identities and whatnot
at least that's kind of in my experience
yeah I like for my experience I think
part of it is because the students are
you know they have to make a choice
between you know Orchestra piano or
technology and I remember when I was
going through school it didn't seem to
be this you know big gender thing and I
remember in one of my classes just a
couple years ago one of the things I had
to write a paper on the gender
difference in computer science and I saw
that from like 80s was the highest
number
of emails in the computer science
programs and colleges and it has gone
down since then and it was interesting
that they were different I you know
different suggestions or thoughts on why
that was and it's just something that
I've thought about because like I said
my classes usually have maybe I probably
have I don't know ten percent girls in
my classes I'm not sure you know I don't
necessarily want to change that because
I don't want to discourage girls from
taking music if they want you know some
instrument but I was just wondering you
know how you you know if you saw any
differences in the interest rate in your
classes especially because they were
required ya know I didn't but I think
that was mainly due to the approach that
I used if I had gone a more linear
everyone does the same thing then I
imagine I would have seen that that
being said have you ever just like sat
down with people who've chosen piano or
Orchestra and just been like so I'm just
curious why you chose this one what are
you interested in or knowing your
schedule you probably don't even have
time to go into those classes to do that
and ask those questions I don't but it's
also something that I don't want to put
the kids
it had that has crossed my mind but I
don't want to put the kids on the spot
you know well why did you pick somebody
else's class instead of mine right but
you know the girls in my class it's it's
so refreshing to see that some of them
absolutely latch on to the coding part
of my curriculum at one school this year
I actually am doing a lunchtime coding
Club and I decided to split it up girls
and boys so one week I meet with the
girls and one week is the boys club and
I'll tell you what when I mentioned that
the girls cheered and that was kind of
telling because I know the boys can be
more overbearing in and some you know
sometimes they're I think the girls do
feel a little bit more lost in there so
I really
have been working on trying to find out
how I can you know keep them feeling as
empowered in class and so that's why I
asked you as I was just wondering if you
had or just individualized projects
which I tried to do as much as I can so
but with that like if kids are choosing
which classes are gonna go to sometimes
they make those choices not based on
interest but just because oh well my
friends are in there and I say that as
like when I taught band at the
elementary level it was that style of
class where like you could choose to go
to band you could choose to go to
Orchestra etc because I saw every kid
when I talked to you in my music I was
able to just like hey um what do you
like about Orchestra class or what do
you like about the other class that's
offered during the band class and not in
like a judgmental wire even my band kind
of a thing but just like just so I can
understand and a lot of it the responses
were oh well my friends in it it could
be as simple as that I mean another
thing it could just be that kids don't
know how awesome the classes and the
things that you can create in it so like
if there's a way that you could showcase
projects from different identities and
different kids with the larger
population that would be great but since
you're at multiple schools that would
probably be very difficult to do yeah I
just would like to make sure that the
girls are you know finding the interest
at a young age so that they don't go up
to the middle school and here feel like
they've already lost you know five years
of of knowledge or right yeah I was just
curious in my experience even if they go
all through elementary school and they
don't engage in a subject area very
deeply or even at all it can still be
very successful at it so like I didn't
start anything music related until
eighth grade which for for the district
letters in like if you didn't start in
fourth or fifth grade like the odds of
you starting in late in middle school or
in high school it's just unheard of like
that right it's very hard to do but if
you have educators who are willing to
start a beginner at what's basically an
advanced level then you're able to do it
so it's okay if kids don't get into
coding until
later like I didn't learn programming
until my junior year of high school and
then I stopped doing it for like a
decade and then came back to it and was
able to pick it up again so like people
can learn how to do this it's just not
everyone's gonna be in the classes in
the elementary grade especially when
they have to pick one class or another
right right
I mean I didn't start any until I got to
college you know I was in the Air Force
I was working on computers but it wasn't
coding and it was just you know like IT
stuff mm-hmm
got out and decided I loved it and
that's when I went to cut you know went
to college to become a programmer so
yeah and for my own kind of like bias
and understanding of Education I think
what's more important is not that we
teach specific subject areas but teach
kids how to learn because in the end
like a decade from now the things that
they're learning odds are some things
are gonna be different they're gonna
need to learn something new so we really
need to focus on that and especially if
you're going into the steam or STEM
fields like it's changing every hour
like there's a new language releasing
every week and there's new platforms
that develop for like you just have to
know so much about how to learn because
it's just it's always changing and
that's one of things that I love about
it but it's also one of the things where
it's it's kind of frustrating because if
you take a break for a month it's like
oh okay
everything I know is out of date almost
yeah oh yeah yeah I totally agree with
you that it's more important the kids
learn how to learn on their own and to
not be afraid to fail and you know to
really want to explore the different
things you know whatever they're working
on coding or whatever that they're
willing to look around and find you know
different ways of doing it yeah and
that's the the one of the big challenges
as educators is how do we encourage that
how do we do that across all K through
graduate or however long kids are in
school yeah but no I totally agree
computer science is probably the
toughest of the topics because it is
changing and it
relatively new and with that that
concludes this episode I really hope you
enjoyed this particular interview sandy
is a wonderful person and I've enjoyed
our conversations over the past couple
of years and look forward to many more
in the future if you're interested in
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where I unpack some scholarship

Guest Bio

Sandra Ahlstrom holds a B.S. in Computer Science and worked as a programmer for several years. She then earned a M.Ed. in Elementary Education and currently works as an Elementary Technology Teacher. She also has a Computer Science Endorsement and Digital Literacy Endorsement. Her passion is to instill a love of technology in her students, as well as teach them the fundamentals of Computer Science.