Project-based Learning in Computer Science with Justin Cannady

Project-based Learning in Computer Science with Justin Cannady
Jared O'Leary
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In this interview with Justin Cannady, we discuss project-based learning in CS, encouraging debugging and working through failure as students and teachers, considerations for integrating CS, lessons learned working on NMSI’s CS AlignEd, and much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast my name is Jared o Leary

    in this week's episode I'm interviewing

    Justin Cannady in our discussion we talk

    about project-based learning in computer

    science

    encouraging debugging and working

    through failure both as students and

    teachers considerations for integrating

    CS some of the lessons that Justin

    learned working on nem GCSE aligned

    curriculum and professional development

    and many more topics as always you can

    find the show notes by clicking on the

    link in the description that is found in

    the app you're listening to this on or

    by visiting jared O'Leary com

    where there's nothing for sale or

    anything like that with all that being

    said if we're now going to begin with

    Justin introducing himself my name is

    Justin Cannady and I'm the senior

    program design manager of computer

    science for NIMS II which is National

    math and science initiative

    I look at kindergarten through 12th

    grade computer science teacher

    professional development and student

    curriculum materials for the teachers

    that we support before that I worked

    with you teach computer science and did

    their AP computer science principles

    curriculum development and teacher

    professional development I am a grad

    student currently working on my

    doctorate in Business Administration

    which there's a long story there but not

    enough time to get into and I have two

    daughters

    I hope they will venture into STEM in

    some way and I live in Birmingham

    Alabama can you tell me the story of how

    you got into CS education yes

    so I majored in mathematics in college

    and did a minor in computer science just

    because the faculty there said they

    paired well and I said okay that's fine

    and then didn't really use the computer

    science part until about five or six

    years ago when dr. Geoff gray at the

    University of Alabama wrote agree on

    four CS for Alabama in which the aim of

    the grant was to increase the amount of

    computer science teachers in Alabama by

    approximately 50 teachers and so I was

    brought in on Phase two of the grant and

    then we were being instructed or taught

    how to teach ap computer science

    principles but it was before the AP

    computer science principles exam that's

    where I got my start began teaching

    computer science principles at Homewood

    high school for a couple years and then

    and

    going to another school in Birmingham a

    private school to do their 5th grade

    through 12th grade computer science

    program and now I'm where I am and

    what's something that you believed when

    you first begin working in education

    that you no longer believed I was one of

    these overachievers all through high

    school and all through college and I

    believed that my calling was to get the

    best and brightest and make them better

    and brighter and so I thought you know

    value is in the AP classes and making

    sure you know were doing everything we

    can to make these kids as smart as we

    can I wish I could like slap my older

    self that is not the way this should

    work I pull full 180 on equity and

    access for I mean computer science but

    education in general I think that's the

    biggest thing that I do not believe

    anymore that you know every student has

    value now and every student should be

    pushed as hard as they can be and

    supported at the same time it's kind of

    funny how perceptions of what teaching

    or education is gonna be like before you

    go into it and you actually get into the

    classroom it's like oh exactly yeah I

    mean it's it's more like you almost

    develop this sort of empathy for your

    students and it's like you know these

    ones that have been successful in the

    past they they have their ways to do it

    but then you know you see the student

    that you know comes to school because

    they don't have food at home right and

    the fact that they're still there

    they're still you know giving it

    everything they can just to try to get

    out of the life that they're in is just

    inspirational so if someone were to kind

    of walk into what you consider to be an

    ideal Cs classroom what would they see

    in here like what are some of the

    engaging learning experiences that would

    be going on this is another thing that

    changed for me I would say from when I

    began teaching to where I am now and how

    I look at learning I think it was

    definitely my my own insecurities about

    my classroom and you know I'm almost not

    to the militant approach but like very

    close like you know we we need to work

    and drill it and make sure the stuff

    gets done but like I said I think that

    was my own insecurities coming out of

    like I need control I think now you know

    the least amount of control you really

    can have and having the students engaged

    in

    that's what I feel like an ideal

    classroom looks like and you know you

    you have people embrace their

    vulnerability and stepping out and

    wanting to fail just so they know that

    they're learning and so that mentality

    of safety psychological safety or

    learning safety whatever it would be

    that would be the hallmark of my ideal

    classroom yeah I know I had worked with

    a lot of teachers who control is like

    probably their biggest issue especially

    when it comes to like facilitating

    project-based learning and what not is

    that control and just allowing kids to

    explore and especially be going to

    inquiry based learning then that's a

    whole new bright level of control that

    teachers have to get rid of

    so speaking of project-based learning

    I'm wondering what do you wish more CS

    educators understood about PBL because

    I've sat in on a session that you did on

    project-based learning at CSTA last year

    mm-hmm I'm just curious like what are

    your thoughts on that what we were just

    talking about with vulnerability and and

    giving up that control I think it's

    something that's very different for a

    lot of teachers to grasp and I think you

    know part of the plight right now is we

    have a lot of CS teachers that are from

    other disciplines and so I say this

    often but in CS where the only

    discipline that thinks it's natural or

    doesn't think it's natural but we do it

    where we're yanking someone out of their

    comfort zone where they went to school

    for what they you know what they know

    and their content and putting them into

    something new brand new at that and a

    lot of times we give them a week of

    professional development and then some

    online community and it's like yeah you

    can see it's an AP course but you know

    it sounds absurd and any other AP course

    that exists and so I think you know

    there's an element of when you then add

    on this layer of PBL or any other

    inquiry based learning it teachers just

    have to be super flexible they have to

    be willing to embrace that failure with

    their students and so I think the best

    way to do that is you know building that

    trust and rapport with your students

    letting them know that you know this is

    new for you to not only the content but

    maybe you know the project-based

    learning approach and what I've seen

    with teachers and those that are

    starting project-based learning it's

    it's very overwhelming all sorts of

    reasons I think classroom environments

    one of them but then also a

    I think there's an element of this

    stigma that surrounds project-based

    learning - that's like well you know I'm

    gonna get my kids a project and then

    they're gonna do it but they you know it

    may take too much time and I think you

    know there's so much progress that's

    been done with project-based learning

    and anyone listening I would recommend

    checking out PBL Works dot work it is a

    sight but forth by the buck Institute

    for education which it used to be dia

    org but they've rebranded in a way but

    they were the I say real forerunners and

    project-based learning and so I think

    there's the element of looking at doing

    project-based learning well and knowing

    when to step in and help your students

    and when to let them fail and help them

    understand the difference and why we we

    set up that environment I think a lot of

    teachers when they first do

    project-based learning they also get a

    lot of backlash from students especially

    the higher achieving student well why

    aren't you teaching us why aren't you

    telling us what to do because that's how

    they've always been been taught it's

    always been spoon-fed to them and

    they're used to that and so breaking

    them out of that mold so they can really

    you know connect with the content and

    make it deep is something that teachers

    have to be willing to accept right yeah

    that depth is something that I strongly

    value in PBL because like often with

    problem-based or challenge based or

    puzzle based or activity based learning

    like it's this surface level application

    of the understanding without really much

    synthesizing or depth in it right at

    least in the stuff that I have seen I'm

    curious with you you talked about the

    failure and whatnot I'm wondering if you

    could elaborate on that because at some

    point what do we do about kids who are

    just constantly failing or kids who

    don't engage in any failure so like

    either end of that spectrum like how do

    you find that nice balance between

    failure and success that's what comes in

    time and I think that's where teachers

    who you know do PBL in their classroom

    or any other similar pedagogy they don't

    know how to react to that they don't

    know how to engage the student that

    wants to do everything by themselves and

    doesn't want any help or the student

    that is trying but then you know is just

    not finding what's going on and

    so I would say one I've seen a lot of

    success when teachers enlist other

    students as the advocates and creating

    that social dynamic within the classroom

    that you know they can find a friend and

    they can find someone that will help

    them and help the teacher and help the

    student that may be disengaged or may

    help the student that is not engaging in

    the level that they would want

    I would preface that with the disclaimer

    that you don't want to do the age old

    like oh yeah well the student can just

    teach everything or let me put all this

    this weight and burden on this student

    because I think that's setting up a

    different thing I'm worried that just

    because then you're kind of robbing that

    student that you're wanting to enlist as

    an advocate of their education and their

    experience by doing that and so there's

    a fine line there but I think a lot of

    social interactions social dynamic is is

    how you set it up so the last school I

    taught at was a private school and there

    was a lot of students that were on the

    overachieving side of the spectrum and

    what made the best impact is when they

    were isolated from peers it was like a

    their own mental block of saying oh okay

    I can fail it's okay and this is how I

    can fail this is how I can fail and not

    look like I'm a failure like I think a

    lot of that is the perception and it's

    within that community and so like within

    the community of higher achieving

    students or overachieving students I can

    say that from being one of like yeah I

    don't want people to know that I fail or

    didn't do everything perfect the first

    time and so I think having that in

    isolation is best in creating those

    times in which no students can come back

    for extra help but then allowing them to

    see you know that that it's okay that

    your your program can output what you've

    wanted it to on the first go-round

    I would also say and research supports

    this that's a more common trend in

    female students girls and women students

    as opposed to males because of the

    mentality of you know boys can go and

    get hurt and dirty and I'm referencing

    the TED talk from the founder of girls

    who code is that correct yeah okay you

    said and so about being brave and

    encouraging women and girls students to

    be brave and fail and learn from it I

    think setting up those opportunities for

    social interactions having advocates

    between students and then also

    in isolation for those overachieving

    students you know include a link to that

    TED talk and the shownotes

    so hey I had classes that were in three

    week rotations where I'd see them four

    times minimum a week and so like every

    Thursday we'd have debugging day where

    it's like you start off like practicing

    debugging and I would share something

    that I worked on in terms of here's a

    failure that I had this last week and

    here's how I tried to work around that

    or and whatnot but I'm curious you

    mentioned like failing in isolation

    which I totally understand but I having

    sat with other educators there's often a

    strong value on working in group

    settings and personally right I never

    enjoyed any group projects I've ever

    worked on like ever

    yeah but I'm wondering if you have

    experience with failure in group

    settings and how that might compare with

    the failure in isolation I would say and

    I would not want to set up this idea

    that the students should always come and

    fail in isolation I think part of that

    and this is maybe jumping into the the

    psychology of it all or the therapy of

    it all

    is allowing that student to learn to

    fail but then also integrating that back

    in of learning to fail in front of

    others so Jared I would agree with you I

    was one that I did not like being in

    groups because typically I was in a

    group I was going to do all the work

    right and I think the benefit of of

    structuring project-based learning or

    any other cooperative learning is making

    sure that all parties are accountable

    within the group and it's structured in

    a way that the students own the

    accountability so they I've seen it done

    for a group contract where they you know

    stipulate workload they stipulate how to

    contact each other what happens if

    someone you know drops the ball what

    happens when when they do really well in

    these groups and so that group contract

    can be enforced mutually amongst them

    all and I think that's a good way to

    create that environment

    I think you know a lot of it is gonna be

    helping students and meeting them where

    they are because at the end of the day

    students are not really gonna learn

    unless they feel safe they can absorb

    the knowledge and spit it back at you

    but I mean we know that's not learning

    for them to actually like understand

    what is going on that's gonna be where

    are gonna have to have that safety and

    so I think it works in different ways

    with different students and that's why

    going back to like creating that rapport

    allowing them to really bond and

    understand where they're coming from and

    how you know different social dynamics

    within a school can affect that at

    different times of the day can affect

    that you know I don't like being up in

    the morning and doing things but in the

    afternoon I'm much happier person

    and so I think giving those

    opportunities for learning and doing

    those things in safe settings it's

    probably what I would come back to him

    yeah in the time of day thing there's a

    lot of research supporting like high

    school kids in particular should not be

    glad as school as early as they do right

    we shouldn't go to work as you and I

    both value project-based learning I'm

    wondering it's kind of like a two-parter

    when you would encourage a Cs educator

    to engage in PBL and when you would not

    recommend PBL I would say PBL is a great

    framework I don't know that I would use

    it a hundred percent of the time and I

    think there's elements of it that are

    great but they can kind of be teased out

    a lot of PBL uses cooperative learning

    which I think it's the Kagan I forgot

    but they've done a lot around

    cooperative learning and basically

    setting up these team builder and group

    building activities to take and build

    these this trust and so that's I see

    that as something that should be in

    every single classroom your students

    should come in and trust each other they

    should trust you I don't see that as a

    missing element from any classroom I do

    think some topics some content you know

    is easily explained in different ways

    the constant struggle at least what I

    hear from teachers I've seen is this

    matter of efficiency I'm like Justin we

    have to go through all this stuff and

    how can we allow PBL to do it and I

    think that's kind of the fun part of

    designing curriculum that that is PBL

    it's it's like balancing the need for

    efficiency but then also the need for

    student understanding like we could go

    on one end of the spectrum like full PBL

    all the time and we can get some really

    really deep learning going on but you

    know we're probably not going to be

    covering a lot of other things but

    as were so deep and we're using that

    time appropriately and then you know on

    the other end of doing efficiency

    you know lecture direct instruction rote

    memorization whatever it may be that's

    like you know we're only hitting surface

    level but we can hit a ton of topics

    because you know the easiest way or the

    fastest way for information to be

    conveyed is just telling it to someone

    and so that's where you're you're having

    to to balance and so I would encourage

    you know if it's a teacher that has

    never done PBL before find a unit out

    there create one I would say find one

    and try it in your classroom see how it

    works in your classroom see if it works

    with the topic I think that's a great

    opportunity to learn a lot about your

    own teaching style about how your

    students respond to it and then start

    looking more from there I think you know

    rushing in and trying to overhaul your

    entire classroom and in one year is a

    very lofty goal I do

    I really enjoyed there was a book I

    forget the authors but it was a hacking

    project-based learning it's a very short

    book but it gives like 10 to 12 steps in

    there and this is a very general

    approach to any classroom ten to twelve

    steps case studies of how it worked and

    then almost like a this is what you can

    do today to do PBL stuff like quick

    things and then this is what you could

    do next year

    and I can send you that link Jared

    because I think that's a wonderful book

    and for any teacher that wants to jump

    into - PBL that would be a great way to

    do it yeah that advice definitely pairs

    nicely I did a an interview with John

    Stapleton a while back and he was

    talking about how he was taught

    constructivist practices and pedagogy

    zand thought that lecturing like or any

    form of direct instruction was just like

    you should avoid at all cost but then

    when he got into the classroom he's like

    oh but there are moments where I need

    that so it definitely is about finding

    that balance between different types of

    engagement and pedagogy and whatnot in

    the classroom yeah I would say and I

    keep harping on it because I feel like

    it's so important and I see it with

    adults I see it with students but

    setting up the trust and building that

    relationship I think it's key because

    you're gonna find stuff that you want to

    try and you as a teacher you have to be

    willing to fail you have to be willing

    to be risky about things and you can't

    be risky in front of your students if

    you

    trust that they're you know not gonna

    accept your your failure as like okay

    well you know guys this obviously it

    didn't work thanks for bearing through

    it with me or it could be one of the

    best lessons but you know teachers are

    never given that time to almost like

    field tests they're their ideas what

    they find from from that learning

    approach and it's always like well this

    has to be a perfect thing or you know

    I'm robbing my students now like

    students understand they have bad days

    they encounter failure but building that

    relationship allows you to flex and go

    with what's gonna be best for your

    students eventually yeah that definitely

    resonates with me right when I first

    started teaching music in a school

    district to the administrators were

    saying we don't have the opportunity or

    luxury to fail and so they only wanted

    us to do things that we quote knew would

    work and so we weren't encouraged to

    experiment with things and for me I just

    it did not connect with like the way

    that I am as an educator I'm constantly

    iterating on what I'm doing every

    quarter every day is something different

    I mean right you just always have to be

    doing new stuff right and can I just say

    Jared I love the fact that your

    backgrounds and music and computer

    science and it's the way you approach

    things from what I've seen is just like

    a beautiful balance sometimes like I saw

    it with math and art and like having

    that those complement each other so well

    and I feel like you do that so well with

    computer science of music and it's a

    really neat thing to see yeah it's two

    things I'm nerdy and passionate about so

    I'm wondering what kind of

    recommendations you would have for CS

    educators who are interested in

    integrating into other subject areas

    like math or music or whatever I'm one

    of these crazy progressives that think

    we really shouldn't be teaching things

    separate anymore I you know

    interdisciplinary studies should be I

    feel like that's the way it should work

    there's so much lost when we're teaching

    the quadratic formula in high school

    algebra without any context except then

    it's like well you know let's get to the

    hard word problems well know that the

    word problems are where this stuff lives

    this is the use and I think so many

    times we teach this in isolation and

    fearful

    computer science is gonna jump into that

    same boat like you just do computer

    science you don't need like the the

    programs and the examples and exercises

    are just going to be these computations

    of like well iterate on this loop and

    you know see how many times you can add

    for it to the variable you know those

    kind of non authentic experiences we're

    not going to stick and so at at NIM Z

    were we're looking at how we do this

    kindergarten through 12th grade

    progression for our teachers and one

    thing I've really put my flag in the

    ground on is K to 8 has to be integrated

    it has to be where we're teaching these

    concepts through ways in which the

    generals teacher can put them in their

    classroom I think it's a it's an issue

    of access because I hear some schools

    that are I know some schools my

    daughter's school has a standalone stem

    teacher or standalone computer science

    teacher or integration tutor or whatever

    they call it but they only see her once

    every seven days and this is a fairly

    affluent school and so they have the

    money to have that teacher but a lot of

    schools don't have that and so you have

    your specials that students go to an

    elementary school and and some can go

    and some can't because of whatever

    reason if we're not teaching our

    generalist teachers to be able to

    integrate computer science within their

    own concept or within their own content

    we're missing the boat were we're still

    creating this divide of you know the

    those that have will continue to have

    more and those that don't have will

    continue to be robbed of this potential

    that could be such an amazing thing I'm

    full on board with with integrating and

    so resources I know New York City has

    the blueprint in which they they provide

    a lot of resources there a lot of them

    are about integration the two teachers

    that the two educators that we're

    working with to design and develop the

    curriculum for our K to eight teachers

    are actually from Cornell Tech Kelly

    powers and Meg gray they are wonderful

    they worked a lot in that space and so

    we're gonna see how we can you know take

    teachers through a three-year

    progression to by the end make them

    specialists and integration in their own

    classrooms so that'll be exciting I also

    know that cs4 all is

    putting together a aligned CS and which

    it will go and look at the current

    content providers out there and see how

    they align to the CSTA student standards

    and so I think that would be a great

    resource for a lot of educators trying

    to find curriculum or lessons or

    anything else to use

    yeah and I'll make sure to link to those

    so you've also had experience teaching

    and virtual and hybrid learning

    environments I'm wondering if you have

    any recommendations for CS educators who

    are considering those kind of learning

    environments I think there's a lot of

    value especially those schools that are

    rural and don't have the funding to have

    a dedicated computer science teacher I

    do worry that a lot of schools will

    switch to the full online version of

    that because not because of how the

    content is delivered but how the

    students are supported and I've seen

    that you know students are grouped

    thirty in a classroom each one are

    working on different things and the

    teachers at and out or you know some

    that that have a great facilitator there

    are are helping them through but you're

    very much reliant on what's going on

    with within that curriculum or with

    within that environment the students to

    really seek in and so there's there's a

    question of quality and then also on the

    other side there's some that the virtual

    high school out of Maynard Massachusetts

    which I think they've rebrand it as just

    VHS that's who I taught with and I think

    they do have a great way of going

    through because they have a teacher on

    the other side that is grading and

    giving feedback and helping students

    when they have questions I feel like

    some curriculums that are just online

    that don't have that back-end of support

    can potentially rob students may even

    make them go the other way and not

    liking the subject whatsoever so I think

    it comes back to how those students are

    being supported in those environments if

    it's through you know the actual system

    or is it through the teacher that's in

    the room with them yeah and your comment

    about kids not having a good experience

    through it is one of the things that I

    caution with when doing integrated

    approaches is mmm-hmm one of the things

    I recommend is starting with a core

    group of teachers who are passionate

    about it rather than running everybody

    all at once doing this because then you

    might have some like bad experiences

    with the teachers yeah I don't even

    how to use email right yeah and that's

    where you're making students not like CS

    because of the 300 other reasons and not

    just the content right so I completely

    agree with that the district itself has

    to sign up for what we're calling CS

    aligned not to be confused with the line

    CS we know there's there's confusion

    there there will be confusion there but

    it is what it is and so there's three

    components to that program one is the

    teacher professional development that

    I've alluded to the other one is we do

    vertical teaming with those teachers and

    so the district has 12 teachers that are

    part of this team and so those receive

    instruction throughout the year of

    looking like above them and below them

    grade wise and to see how those teachers

    are teaching computer science and also

    adapting their classroom to make sure

    you know however they explained loops in

    second grade we want that to to be a

    very similar approach that's happening

    in and fourth fifth or third grade all

    the way up we don't want you know this

    disparate programs or disparate ways of

    explaining this and I think we have

    countless amounts of other research and

    every other content area that says

    that's a bad thing like you don't want

    to explain something one way and then

    the next year you flip it around on them

    and so that's one component the last

    component is district planning support

    in which we're going through and working

    with the school leaders through this CS

    roll script rubric to help them create a

    plan for their district that is going to

    focus on access equity and

    sustainability long term but to your

    earlier point Jared I completely agree

    like it it can't be a mass thing and I

    also think it can't be like a top-down

    approach like you have to have buy-in

    from these teachers you have to have

    your CS champions that are saying oh

    yeah I get how this works I'll say the K

    to 12 initiative with Cornell Tech is

    doing some wonderful things and about

    five or six schools in New York that

    they're working to do this integration

    in in a very specific way that

    meaningful way and taking these teachers

    content coaching them providing them a

    ton of support throughout the year what

    have you learned while working on the CS

    aligned oh so we launched

    program last year and it was interesting

    I learned so much that's that's the

    small and so the big answer is we

    originally designed the program to bring

    in content and curriculum providers to

    run their own professional development

    within the within the nihms II umbrella

    and I should also explain NIMS II works

    way outside of computer science computer

    science is actually one of the newer

    content areas that we've really dug into

    but organizationally we work with

    schools across the nation it usually in

    areas of high need or at-risk student

    populations and providing them constant

    support for their teachers students

    study sessions and typically it has been

    their college readiness program which

    focuses on the AP courses the thought

    process there is if we can prepare

    students along the way to reach those AP

    courses they have a better chance of

    either going to college being more

    successful in their careers and so

    that's that's the overall approach and

    so with that we we tried to just say

    well let's invite all these different

    computer science curriculum providers

    and let them do professional development

    under our umbrella handle the logistics

    for them and see what happens while

    supporting these teachers throughout the

    year what we found what I found was

    different content providers have

    different ideas of what professional

    development actually looks like right

    and so there was pretty big

    inconsistencies across the board when it

    came to you know how content was

    delivered what that looked like what the

    teacher experience was we also had

    teachers that were not fully aware of

    what they were really getting into

    because they were kind of voluntold by

    their districts to show up and so

    there's a lack of teacher buy-in and

    then the those were really the two

    biggest things and so shifting that to

    this year we're looking more at a

    consolidated effort of making sure

    everyone in the district or everyone

    that's coming is very aware of what's

    going on and making sure they're the

    right people to come and experience the

    professional development the other one

    was we're still working with the

    partners that we worked with last year

    but we're working on a collaborative

    professional development experience so

    instead of you know 12 of different

    programs being offered we're folk

    getting down to five and that's kata to

    three to five six to eight and then a

    piece ESP and apcs a while next year I

    think we're gonna we're going to go

    ahead and put in exploring computer

    science as well so that will be the

    pathway the teacher professional

    development for the teachers that come

    while doing the vertical teaming

    throughout the year and the district

    planning support and one of your

    comments about the PD providers and even

    just like thinking even broader like

    some of the CS platforms are curricula

    there are a lot of well-intentioned CS

    professionals who have kind of stepped

    into the education field but have never

    taught a day in their life so write

    about what a teacher or student would

    need are often not based in reality or

    actual classroom experiences so right

    it's definitely something to watch out

    for when selecting any kind of platform

    or PD

    I completely agree I'm so excited that

    we're on the working group for CSTA

    as providing guidance to those

    professional development providers

    through the cs educator standards I

    think that that's gonna be a great

    resource for for these providers to tap

    into yeah because you're right like

    there's a lot of people that are jumping

    in and it it's it is well-intentioned

    hopefully most of them well intentioned

    and it's not financially appealing it

    for for some but it is you know where

    the feedback we're getting from

    districts is as we're having these

    conversations they they report well we

    don't know what to pick we don't know

    what shiny new toys to buy we you know

    we have this this X amount of money and

    they feel like an you know sinking it

    into these robots or these type of

    computers or these things are really

    what's gonna benefit it's like no you

    really need to make sure your teachers

    are prepared they're supported because

    if not you're you're buying toys that

    are going to go into a closet eventually

    right so offline you had mentioned that

    you really try and encourage or develop

    access equity sustainability things like

    that through your PD do you have any

    recommendations for others who are also

    trying to hit those three areas yeah so

    I just ran across something this morning

    and it is by David Weintraub is that

    right and I will

    definitely send you the resource but it

    is a rubric that's built for looking at

    professional development through those

    lenses especially access inequity and so

    I think that's a wonderful resource and

    I'm hoping that we can incorporate that

    within what the CSTA working groups

    doing I think looking at any of the

    research that exploring computer science

    that program has put out I know that has

    been their their main focus is and

    that's what their whole program was

    developed around is making sure all

    students can be able to have an

    opportunity to learn computer science as

    far as any other resources go the ready

    for rigor framework with culturally

    responsive teaching and that's where a

    lot of a lot of our lens comes from at

    NIMH Z so I would say you know that

    those would be a great place to start

    and then that will probably lead

    teachers and other educators onto other

    great things so from one type a person

    to another how do you take care of

    yourself and stave off burnout oh my

    gosh that I saw that question and I was

    like wow I don't have a good answer but

    I've been trying to do better one thing

    that I do is I time block really well

    now my scheduling and I've started

    trying to take that over to my personal

    life and so like I said I'm a grad

    student right now and so I will time

    block in my my nights especially like

    when I have I have my kids i time block

    for them so you know I picked them up

    from school and then they go to bed at

    personal calendar is you know that's

    what I'm doing and then maybe from 8:00

    to 10:00 I'll try and block off

    schoolwork

    but then I never really thought about

    applying that to personal life before I

    think I talked to someone a month or two

    months ago and that's what they were

    doing I was like okay this is nice

    because what I've realized and I you can

    probably sympathize with me on this is

    if I don't have it written down it stays

    on my head and it creates this anxiety

    panic you know like and so if I can

    write it down if I can time block it off

    even 30 minutes on my calendar to send

    an email that I know I have to send it

    makes me allows me to not have to worry

    about it yeah and so I say setting up

    those practices there and then as

    this is like just disconnecting from

    work and so like I'll purposely leave my

    phone in another room at times like when

    I have the girls or other times just so

    I'm not checking work email so I'm not

    trying to respond to something or have

    my mind cluttered and I think another

    thing and that this could be age so just

    getting older but like saying no

    sometimes like I feel like early in my

    career I was yes I'll do it oh yeah of

    course I want to jump in here I want to

    help and even though it's

    well-intentioned all of us only have so

    much energy and so you know by saying

    yes to everything you're really diluting

    everything and so it's finding those

    places in which I feel like I can make

    the most impact and saying yes to that

    and reserving those yeses for that time

    and knowing that you know everybody's

    human and and we all have to have time

    to disconnect I do want to know that

    your response to that question so I'm

    always looking for other ways unpack

    there I definitely agree with like

    finding time to disconnect it's been

    difficult for me for the last couple

    months because I have been working on

    weekends and working later into the

    evenings because just so many projects

    going on so learning to say no to some

    of those projects would have probably

    been helpful mm-hmm when I initially got

    counseling like well over a decade ago

    one of the things that she recommended

    was like planning out your day in like

    knowing like well things are gonna are

    changing and so I had to force in okay

    I'm gonna work out from this time to

    this time and like nothing's gonna get

    in the way of that ideally so I that has

    been a big thing for me

    also the getting things done idea of

    just like writing it down putting into

    your action and filing a fir here's what

    I'm going to address that thing so I

    don't have to keep thinking about that

    that definitely helps with anxiety I

    also wonder I saw a tool pop up at some

    point but it was a circular calendar and

    I'm I'm interested in how that can can

    help because I sometimes I lose

    long-term sight for

    short-term like you said with all

    projects that pop up and and I wonder if

    looking at a circular calendar and

    having like that blocked off in a way of

    okay I can you know push this project

    out to this point because that seems

    like a more empty space on this calendar

    then keeping it you know everything just

    within the month the next month and so I

    don't know that's just an idea could you

    elaborate on like visually what does the

    circular calendar look like I have like

    multiple things going in my brain I will

    send you a link to this too but it's

    from what it looked like it was blocked

    and chunks of like so there's the circle

    like inner circle was chunked in I feel

    like seasons so like the quarters of the

    year okay and then the the outer chunk

    was like in months and so there wasn't a

    lot of detail provided it was really I

    it looked like it was color-coded in a

    way of like okay you know this happens

    on this month every single you know

    whatever it is every single month and or

    maybe like I know I'm gonna be traveling

    at these points and so I can put that on

    there just as a I feel like what it was

    trying to do is give like a holistic

    view of your year and for us Taipei

    anxiety-ridden people like it almost

    provides more space to say oh okay

    like I have a year like well not a

    master guaranteed time but like

    hopefully we have a year of like this is

    the progression of life and and maybe

    everything doesn't have to be done

    within the next week yeah yeah like so

    I'm curious what you wish there's more

    research on in CS education so a topic

    that's really interesting for me and

    what I probably am gonna dig into for my

    research is going to be the identity

    that's formed with these teachers

    especially those that are taken out of

    their area of expertise so this teacher

    identity that was formed as becoming a

    math teacher or becoming a science

    teacher

    how does adding in this teacher that

    like now you're a computer science

    teacher like how what does that look

    like versus are you still a math teacher

    do you use both like when you first

    initially talk to someone how does that

    look professionally with the nihms ECS

    aligned program

    we're digging into you know how how does

    this systemic change happen within a k12

    school district by offering you know

    these components or what does that look

    like and I think that's kind of where I

    wish a lot of focus would start going

    into is this systemic changes and how

    you can get the basically the biggest

    bang for your buck

    like going into a school district and

    and tackling these issues of equity and

    access and also you know putting it out

    there that you know everybody is is

    gonna quote money in time like money and

    time are issues and everybody faces

    those so let's like put those on the

    table but open to the side let's let's

    figure out other ways that we can be

    addressing these issues ignoring the

    fact that money and time are always

    issues and so that's where I I would be

    really interested oh and one other this

    would be like a personal venture into

    like medicine / computer science /

    neurology or everything else

    someone told me one time about some

    upcoming research that like learning

    computer science actually changes the

    way your brain functions and works in

    seeing problems and seeing things and so

    I'd be really interested in that which I

    just watched a TED talk on

    neuroplasticity and like how you how

    your brain can rewire itself which I

    find all that so fascinating so that

    would be a personal research project I

    think yeah I have a like a bit of a

    fascination with neuroscience and

    whatnot and yeah it's it's it's

    fascinating just we don't really fully

    understand how we learn we just know

    that like when you do something over and

    over then you like to develop myelin and

    like it helps with like being able to

    fire the correct neurons at the correct

    time yeah things like that but we still

    don't really understand how we actually

    learn yeah I think and like all of that

    leads me to wonder about and it was the

    the TED talk that I watched with this

    neuroplasticity that there was a woman

    where she couldn't gain her balance and

    so part of it was like her her balance

    centre was was off and so basically

    retrained her brain through this tongue

    sensor that every time she was balanced

    she would she'd be able to like keep

    that and it was creating these new

    connections within her brain I wonder if

    like computers

    answer or doing that kind of thing could

    help those with anxiety or depression or

    other you know mental illnesses to

    rewire those pieces of your brain that

    need to so yeah certainly and that kind

    of tags on to what Katie Henry mentioned

    in her interviews like cs4 healing and

    what is the potential for that mmm yeah

    that would be amazing where my people go

    to connect with you and the

    organization's you work with probably

    the easiest is gonna be through NIMS II

    which I'm I guess you'll link my email

    in and any other contact information but

    also CSTA

    as wonderful organization be a part of

    and helps things that we're doing cs4

    all has as their website now and which

    is really blossoming and creating

    different places and I want to start as

    I'm doing more research put it out there

    I enjoy cooking so if you want to take a

    cooking class with me come to Birmingham

    so I took a sushi class which was so

    interesting a couple months ago and so I

    like that

    but I really truly I like just being

    adventurous I think how how different

    flavors can can meld together and make

    new things as great I recently with my

    daughters

    I got a pasta maker and so we made

    noodles fresh first some spaghetti and

    that was that was super neat I never

    done anything like that they loved it it

    was a massive mess but still it was

    super fun so it's worth it though oh yes

    definitely

    that concludes this week's episode of

    the cska podcast I hope you enjoyed this

    interview with Justin I certainly

    enjoyed interviewing him

    friendly reminder you can find all of

    these show notes by clicking on the link

    in the description or visiting jared

    O'Leary com where you will find lots of

    links to videos and books and other

    resources that justin mentioned

    throughout this episode if you haven't

    done so already please consider giving a

    review to this podcast it helps other

    people find it or simply share it with

    somebody that you know who might be

    interested in hearing interviews like

    this or the episodes were unpacked

    scholarship which occurred the previous

    week and will occur next week thank you

    so much for taking the time to listen to

    this episode I hope you all have a

    wonderful week and I look forward to

    speaking to you again in next week's

    episode

Guest Bio

Justin Cannady is the Senior Computer Science Program Design Manager for the National Math + Science Initiative (NMSI) and oversees the development of NSMI’s K-12 computer science educator development and student curriculum. With extensive experience in computer science curriculum design and teacher learning, Justin was the Learning Experience Designer at the University of Texas Austin where he supported and developed components of the UTeach Computer Science Principles curriculum. He has served as a teacher professional development facilitator and a mentor for teachers implementing computer science and math coursework. Justin has obtained his National Board Certification in mathematics and is currently completing his doctoral degree at Franklin University.

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