Empathetic Listening in Computer Science with Josh Sheldon

In this interview with Josh Sheldon, we discuss computational action, designing exploratory professional development experiences, learning how to listen to and empathize with students, applying SEL with teachers, the future of teaching and learning, the problems with external influences on CS education, and so much more.

Are you familiar with the term
computational action or want to learn
more about designing exploratory
professional development experiences or
about learning how to listen and
empathize with students or applying SEL
with teachers instead of just students
or the future of teaching and learning
or maybe you want to learn more about
the problems with external influences on
Cs and education as well as many other
topics my name is Jared O'Leary and I've
had experience working with every single
grade kindergarten through doctoral
students I can say with confidence that
today's conversation with Josh Sheldon
is a wonderful conversation that I think
you will enjoy you can find links to
other podcasts that are relevant to this
particular episode as well as some of
the other things we talk about in our
conversation and all of that can be
found at jaredoleery.com or by simply
clicking the link in the app that you're
listening to this on I'm Josh Sheldon I
am a computer science educator working
in the area of throttling and
participation increasing representation
and equity in computer science education
specifically I work at the teaching
systems Lab at MIT where we strive to
help anyone who facilitates learning or
teaches someone other people to become
better at that teaching and facilitating
of life you tell me the story of how you
got into Computer Science Education sure
it's a bit of a winding road I
definitely didn't follow a linear path
to get here I have been sort of
interested in Computing and in
technology for as long as I can remember
started programming in about second
grade with a well I think in first grade
I learned a logo at school and then in
second grade we got our first actual
computer personal computer in the house
which was an Atari 1600 or Atari 800 I
believe and I learned basic sort of by
typing in programs from the back of
magazines which was
a remarkably bad learning experience but
we programmed some it was empowering
because we programmed some neat game I
just didn't learn very much from it
beyond that I've been mostly self-taught
within Computing looking back on it now
from the lens I carry I'd say I had a
lot of privilege that both of my parents
are Highly Educated they saw computers
personal Computing coming and you know
had the wherewithal and the both
financially and sort of intellectually
to know that this was going to be a
thing that was valuable to anyone and
made that happen in our house and
encouraged me and programmed with me so
that was great I've been an educator and
I've you know I'm a lifelong learner
learner myself I believe very very
strongly in the power of Education in
learning for everyone and the education
is a social justice issue that we need
to close the opportunity Gap and build a
Equitable system in which anyone who
wants to and you know essentially
everyone is afforded the opportunity to
get an education in the area is that are
of interest to them and in some quarters
that are important to our society so
I've been working primarily in stem
education for the early part of my
career to developed I taught for two
years and got a degree in educational
technology where I did some programming
but not actually teaching others to
program or teaching computer science
then ended up at MIT in a lab that does
games and simulations for Education it's
the sheller teacher education program
led by Professor Eric klopfer where I
was hired to work on a project that uh
outdoor augmented reality so this was in
that allowed people to program outdoor
augmented reality games think Pokemon go
by themselves using our tools and you
know Pokemon go came online in what
of the curve it's pretty cool looking
back to think about that yeah and so
that was sort of my first introduction
to Computer Science Education in that we
were Building A system that allowed
people to program so we were building a
labor abstraction on top of other
programming languages that let people
program logic into games I then also
picked up a project helping people learn
complex systems in biology using the
star logo programming environment which
has a rich history that it's a
descendant of the original logo a direct
descendant which we may talk about later
but is one of the you know maybe the
first educational program in language
and then I moved got even more serious
about Computer Science Education I
became the primary part of my job when I
worked on the App Inventor team at MIT
did many things there thought a lot
about computational thinking thought
about and published on both
computational thinking but also
computational actions which was an idea
that with Mike tysonbaum we coined that
term which is not brand new Concepts but
it's a new articulation of things that
we've known and sort of a mashup of
things that in a novel way that have
been bumping around in the field of
Computer Science Education for a while
what is it I'm not familiar with the the
term computational action the gist of it
is that students shouldn't be learning
programming for the sense of the sake of
programming that we want to engage
students in their learning we want to
build their conception of themselves as
people who can engage in the business of
computing of computer science and one
way to do that that we posit is a you
know strong engaging factor is getting
them to work on real projects real world
so it draws from project-based learning
and that we don't necessarily even
accepted the sort of introductory level
specify what tools they have to use and
we more support them in picking up the
tools and the concepts they need to
complete the the project that they
co-designed or designed for themselves
to do okay it had draws some pieces from
Service Learning in the projects are
often somehow pro-social and for the
benefit of their school or other
communities which is known to be
important in building Equity that
traditionally underrepresented groups
whether it be people of color or young
women and we know engage more and
participate more when they're doing
objects and work that is beneficial to
their communities as opposed to just
learning a programming language in the
abstract what about beneficial to the
individual so like self-expression Etc
there's a lot of value there that's not
necessarily what we set forth in the
idea of computational action but it's a
very good point that self-expression and
creativity are you know very meaningful
to students I do think that there's a
shade there that could be like a shade
of meaning that could be drawn there
that I think there's something very
important about impact with other people
self-expression can certainly engage
with other people you can make art that
is important to you that is moving to
other people but you can also have
self-expression for your own sake which
is no less valid but it doesn't
necessarily engage with the other people
around you yeah the that's a really
interesting idea and the framing of it
is computational action I do think that
there's like this tendency in school at
large not just in like computer science
class or whatever but in general most of
my schooling experience was schooling
for the sake of schooling and there was
like no application that had any real
world benefit both in terms of the
communities I lived in or with myself as
an individual to like even express
myself so it's it's nice to hear
somebody who also like thinks schooling
should be for doing something like to to
improve or to better a community or to
better under stand a community or even
oneself I really do like the that
question that you asked about
self-expression that really is powerful
and I'll definitely think about that and
incorporate that into my work and you're
absolutely right that it is not at all
endemic to Computer Science Education
that you know the classic joke for math
is when are we ever going to use this
and teach stutters and doesn't know what
to say because they say oh well you'll
need this in the future and that's great
and all but you know that is sort of the
marshmallow test which is the classic
you know if you don't eat this
marshmallow now you can have two
marshmallows later yep and it's testing
it's apparently supposed to be
predictive of future success in life but
apparently that's been debunked even so
to expect that kind of self-regulation
and patience on the part of a learner is
an awful lot to expect of young people
of any people let alone young people we
don't see that in adult education in
adult learning it's very much the case
that most education that happens and
learning that happens outside of you
know formal schooling and in the
workplace is just in time learning or
taking a course because you're starting
a new role and you need to have these
skills so it's much more practical and
yeah we don't do that for younger
Learners yeah which is a shame
especially with the young kids like you
can do so many cool things but then over
time it becomes like schooling often
becomes less creative I think in high
school and in undergrad it's more
recreative and solving problems that
have already been solved generally
speaking and it's not until the Masters
where you start to explore outside of
that and then really in the doctorate
when it's finally like okay what is
something that is underexplored or not
explored at all that you want to like
dive into and learn more about and like
had a new Uncharted territories for sure
and as a physicist major student of math
and physics I can understand some piece
of that because there's just so much the
skill you have to build to be able to
make new contributions to the field yeah
there's just this huge body of
understanding and skill that you can't
know without a lot of development but
that said there are ways to design
educational experiences that provide
some opportunity for creativity early on
and don't ask you to be as as you said
recreative they can be more exploratory
and ask you to discover things it may
not be new things that you're
discovering but you're unearthing them
because they're new to you I'm curious
as somebody who has kind of like had
some experience designing or learning if
you're like mentoring someone who is
trying to create professional
development or even just a learning
experience what advice might you give
them given what you were just talking
about as with any creative experience
Russian creative experience one of the
biggest things is know your audience
know who you're working for and that
comes through experience of working with
people and through being a good listener
and through working with people getting
out there don't design in a vacuum get
out if possible coat design work with
the people the Learners and the
Educators who are also going to be
Learners early and periodically so get
them in before you've designed something
that is you know set in drying concrete
get them in the choice of materials so
you don't go down the road and then test
it with users and realize oh I've got to
scrap all of this it's not working at
all listening is so important to all of
Education both as for Learners and for
people who are facilitating learning
yeah I unpacked a paper a keynote that I
was talking about how educators should
really engage in radical listening and
really understand and only where you are
working but who you are working with
like the individuals the groups the
communities Etc and the context in which
you're in I'm kind of curious is there a
story of a moment or Catalyst that kind
of led to that recommendation like for
myself a lot of what I recommend for
other people is because I had really bad
experiences that were the opposite of
what I recommend
I wouldn't say there's one experience
that was like a game changer for me
there's a series of experiences that
stand out for me as really good examples
I definitely had some honor examples but
it doesn't sound like anything compared
to your experience I had some really
good Educators that I worked with you
know learned from in school in middle
school and high school and even I don't
remember elementary school as much but
you know I remember liking the teachers
and to me electing the teachers means
they know me and they understand who I
am and I'm able to are able to meet me
where I am in college I worked in the
Service Learning Center that helped
match volunteers with volunteer
opportunities and it was led by a woman
named Judy Curley who was a PhD student
in counseling psychology she just taught
us about how to really listen to people
active listening and building empathy
with with other people who are different
than myself and I think that you know
listening and empathy go hand in hand
and empathy is very very important also
to education I should you know also give
credit to my Aunt Julie Vogel is you
know very skilled listener and I call
them mirrors people that reflect ideas
back to me and let me hear what I've
just said without judgment sometimes
with a probing question that goes along
with it and there have been other
examples of people like that in my life
that really have helped me hone my
listening skills it really resonates
with me and what I tried to do when I
was in the classroom so my biggest
motivator for getting into education was
I was I was suicidal in high school and
undergrad and like the thing that kept
me going was making music and like being
a part of like Drumline and things like
that and so I wanted to help others who
may be struggling through similar things
and so music making was the way to do
that I then like roundabout ended up in
a computer science after many years but
the the the core idea of wanting kids to
be able to express themselves and to
kind of have a way to learn something
that is Meaningful to them as an
individual um was really helpful but
because that was like the the core of
why I went into this I feel like I went
in really actively listening and trying
to understand what students might be
saying without saying something um
whether it's like anxiety or depression
or whatever or just like hey they need
somebody to talk to and trying to
understand I have noticed that there are
some Educators that I've worked with who
might not have had as many mental
struggles as I did and so they were not
able to necessarily know what to listen
for or how to empathize with somebody
who was not being overt with some of the
things that they were subtly
communicating and honestly probably
trying to hide like I was when I I was
in high school I didn't want people to
know that I was suicidal so I just look
like a really angry person and people
just didn't know what was really going
on in my head I'm curious if like how
you have learned to listen and empathize
or how you may have seen other people
try and do that if they don't know what
to listen for initially the idea of
computational action often involves
teamwork and working on a team to do
something that you couldn't accomplish
by yourself or that I couldn't
accomplish by myself and I noticed that
you said being part of a drumline was
important and I often think of finding
your people finding your place as being
a very important part of development and
comfort and combating loneliness and
disconnection so I want to emphasize
that it's I think it's important very
important to building group projects
many reasons not you know limited to
you're going to use this in the future
in the business setting but just like
right it's psychologically healthy to
have people that you know how to work
with or that you can work with and be
creative together so going back to the
question you asked of I developed these
listening skills and this empathy part
of it was I mean working with Judy in
college you know she made us practice
um and she is a psychologist so she you
know taught us about body language and
what that tells us you know being very
attentive and you know this idea of
reflecting back and just using wait time
you know I learned that in various
places but just being silent is and
being with someone is very powerful in
many ways listening included but also
just being a human with someone else and
being there non-judgmentally is
enormously important uh you mentioned
suicidality I also um have been through
you know attempts and mental health
struggles and so I've been through years
of therapy and I've learned from my
therapist that you know some better some
worse but you know that is a skill that
many people in that profession have and
I think you know we do educational
psychology for prospective teachers
which many of our listeners will know
that that's you know educational
theories uh vygotsky and Zona proximal
development and stuff like that but you
know I think it would behoove us to pay
more attention to you know the social
emotional learning of Educators
themselves and by proxy the what they
can bring to Learners so explicitly
teaching these skills that's a really
interesting point I first I want to say
thank you for your vulnerability I
appreciate that I I know that there are
people out there who are going through
or who have been through mental health
struggles and feel like they're alone
and so one of the reasons why I share
the struggles that I've been through so
that people know hey I like you're not
alone in this and then two that you can
get better with it like with therapy and
Etc they're not a permanent thing but
I'm to jump on to what you were just
talking about it's really interesting
that SEL is often discussed in relation
to students but the way that you just
framed it also talks about it in
relation to teachers as well and that is
a conversation that honestly I wish we
had more of as a field and it is
happening in Pockets here and there was
just at a conference called the systems
awareness lab conference the systems
awareness lab is a relatively new Lab at
MIT led by metabol Peterson and they're
the two main leads Eric Clopper is also
involved my friend Lana cook is an
important part of it and I was at the
conference last week and they absolutely
are thinking about we'll call it SEL for
lack of a better term but wellness and
mindfulness for members of the
educational Community not just students
but also Educators and there are other
places it's happening given what's you
know the trend for the last 20 plus
years has been we're losing teachers and
that's and the at least the last 20
years that's when I when I've been in
education enough to know about it and
pay attention to it it may be longer
than that the last three years of the
pandemic pandemic have certainly
accelerated the you know career changing
from teaching to other places retirement
and you know the mental well-being of
anybody in schools has plummeted there's
plenty of evidence to show that research
and otherwise so the more we can do to
provide people with coping tools and I
want to very much emphasize that coping
tools are just that they're coping tools
and they can be important in the rest of
your life and they're crucial to have
but their coping tools they're not fixed
for the system which which in many ways
has a lot of room for improvement so we
don't want to drive people to the point
where they need those coping skills but
recognize that right now we have a
system that does necessitate them if you
could wave a magic wand what's something
that you might be able to change in the
system so I'll go back to the systems
awareness lab conference and say we're
not good at knowing what that thing or
things are to change education is an
amazingly complex system and part of the
definition of complex systems is that
there are non-linear non-intuitive
effects Json inputs you know I can say
what an outcome I would like to see is
but I can't really say this is the thing
I want to change to achieve that up and
I mean one is that I absolutely would
change in a heartbeat is it goes to
listening to students to meet in the
where they're at being real with
students Learners of all kinds people of
all kinds their world that they live in
for their lifetime is not going to be
the one that I've lived in climate
change is a real thing and it's going to
make life hard and I want to acknowledge
that and honor that not brush it under
the carpet so and there are other
examples of that and I want to support
kids you know there's this epidemic of
loneliness and disconnection and
different kinds of mental health
challenges that has been happening for
the last 10 years at least and you know
ramping up for the last 10 years before
covid and you know the data is not in
yet but it's clearly accelerated since
the pandemic and so that's probably the
main thing I would is you know just
going back to social emotional learning
and mental health support and the
corollary to that is something that is a
pet peeve of mine that people talk as if
there's a dichotomy between social
emotional learning and the academic
instruction and learn learning that if
you take time for social emotional
learning it's a zero-sum game and you're
taking time away from academic
instruction and that's just not true
yeah there's good evidence to show and
that you know more relaxed kids who are
have more executive function and are
comfortable with their peers and their
teachers learn better they learn more
and faster and are more creative and
that's what we want you know it's a
multiplicative thing that on the in the
other direction kids who are more
successful in academic instruction are
more comfortable with themselves they're
more proud of themselves they have more
self-efficacy and that builds confidence
and their social emotional skills one of
the things that I'm I'm really
fascinated with is thinking about how
philosophies or understandings of
Education kind of change over time like
my own when I reflect on it when I first
started teaching my senior year of high
school versus now like there have been
so many catalysts that led me down
different paths and I'm curious for you
how has your understanding of Education
kind of changed or evolved over time or
if we want to be more specific like
what's something that you believed when
you first started working in education
that you no longer believe oh my
goodness so again I look back well over
my lifetime and you know it's there are
any number of iffy statements that say
the you know expert is the one who knows
how much they don't know and you know
developing humility about that and I'd
say that when I started as a teacher I
realized very quickly in the classroom
that wow I don't know how to manage a
classroom as a first year teacher
because that's what happens to
first-year teachers and that's an aside
but we could get much better at teaching
classroom management right now our
systems are not good at that but you
know I thought teaching the way I had
Learned was the way to go I had a few
education classes I did not have a
degree in education but even then we
know that people go through education
degrees study pedagogy get into the
classroom and take some pieces of that
but also largely
um default to the way they learned when
they were in school it's a you know
self-perpetuating cycle and that some
people will then realize iterate on
those pieces and change their
construction style and behavior and
models of Education
I hear you asking how has that happened
for me it's a lot of reflection being
observed and having the opportunity to
reflect with people who are very good at
the crafting it's watching I mean the
chance to observe really good teachers
and it's listening to Learners and you
know realizing I bombed that and how can
I actually
you know and they'll tell you either you
know this is where you get it the verbal
versus non-verbal and behavioral you
know they'll tell you one way or the
other that this didn't work for you you
know some of the what we think of as
quote-unquote good students may not tell
you and they'll figure it out on their
own and you know want to maintain the
perception that they're you know doing
the right things in classrooms but it's
really the middle of the pack in the
first terms of as if it's a competition
but the
kids who might be considered less good
Learners who you really have to watch
and understand where they're at
um they may tell you directly if you
give them a safe and permissive place to
do so I think that's another piece of
listening is that you have to make the
place where you're allowing them to
speak to you a safe place and you know
really honor what they say not ignore
you know not have them say it and then
ignore it you know you can say I can't
do that or I'm not going to do that but
I hear you and that's okay but just
saying not taking any action on it is
not okay I'm curious what motivates you
about your work and the impact that
you're trying to have on the field right
now the main thrust of my work is
building equity and representation in
high school computer science Equity has
been a part of my vocation or avocation
as long as I can remember it's something
that really matters to me leave it
probably comes in large part out of my
being raised Jewish but also you know
out of my grandparents on the other side
who are not Jewish living in community
with each other in a small farming
community in northeast Pennsylvania and
then on the Jewish side you know being
only a generation or two removed from
people who fled Germany and Europe
during the Holocaust and wanting to do
better make the world a better place
there's a concept of tikkuno lam in
Judaism that is something that I've
Loosely translated as leaving the world
a better place than I found it ever
since I was a kid you know kids have
this known inherent sense of unfairness
and unfairness and I happen to have a
set of experiences where you know I just
observed that some people don't have as
Fair or have a fair experience in our
country and it bothered me and it
continues to bother me it has for my
whole life and I've wanted to do
something about that I volunteered
throughout high school and college and
most of my adult life it's been
something I've wanted to be part of make
part of my work life so I'm very
fortunate to have that opportunity now
why do I think it's important within
computer science part of it was economic
the part of his power and part of it is
civic responsibility so the economic and
power go together that typically are
traditionally marginalized communities
have less power and have less economic
means to take power and then civic
responsibility is that and just life in
the 21st and century and beyond means
that technology is going to be done to
you mostly whether or not you like it
and the amount you can ameliorate that
is directly correlated to how much you
know about how technology works
and even then you know there are
limitations so where do you see the
future of learning and education and I
do say those two as being two separate
things where do you see us heading and
how might we go to an optimistic version
of either of those oh my goodness well
you put the um Javi out at the end of
that question that you want me to be
optimistic about it that's harder
um we could break it down into two
different things like here's where I
think it's going and here's where I'd
like it to go instead sure and I think I
will do that
um so let's divide it into at least
three parts learning I think there has
been a really interesting shift in the
past 25 years
um with the add-in to the internet that
people can learn a lot just from access
to the internet
um independent of formal education and I
hope and think that there will be more
of a movement or sort of atomized
learning
um outside of the formal educational
system I hope there will be a movement
towards more Project based and situated
learning both within and without and
outside of formal education for formal
education I am I'm trying to be a
realist I maintain hope and optimism
that it will change but as a realist to
recognize that is a big ship and we
don't know yet how to all the levers
that are going to make it a change of
course and hopefully change course
fairly dramatically people have been
trying to reform education for quite
some time
and it's very resistant to change as big
sisters are yeah and I think a lot of
people who are kind of like trying to
navigate those Waters don't really know
where they're going and why like I'm
thinking of politicians in particular
when I make a statement like that like
most politicians who have a profound
impact on education and education policy
might not have stepped foot in a
classroom in decades let alone taught in
a classroom so we like as Educators
educational Scholars Etc like well we
have opinions and research and practice
that inform where we think we might head
there are people outside of the field
who are ultimately kind of like making
decisions for us absolutely and this
goes back to the theme that's an
important here of listening the you know
you don't necessarily have to have been
in a classroom but you have to be humble
about your experience and willing to
listen to the people who have been in
the classroom and in the schools and
like again I'll emphasize that school
systems and Educational Systems are very
complicated complex systems that you
know there are thousands of different
classes of actors involve there are many
different contexts in which education
schools happen and there are resource
disparities there are funding models
that are different from state to state
and municipality municipality and all
that says it's a big task to make change
yeah one of the interesting things that
was new to me last week that this
systems awareness lab conference and
then keep mentioning is the idea that
you know these are systems effects so
they're affected by who knows how many
variables and we literally don't know
how many variables
you know Student Success is first how do
we measure Student Success and then how
do we know what variables actually
impact Student Success the most yep I
mean that's a really hard question and
yeah just by virtue of Being Human we
tend to attribute it to a person not
multiple people maybe a class of people
but to a person so it's that student's
teacher will bear the brunt of the
either success or you know bear that
brought to the failure or reap the
rewards of the success yeah similarly
for school systems you know the
superintendent ultimately can do some
things and change a lot but you know
there are so many other variables and
that person is still the scapegoat or
the hero depending on you know perceived
success of the school system and that's
just not how complex systems work yeah
and to actually view education and
educational reform as a complex system I
I think it's lordy who talks about the
idea of a princess a ship of observation
and when I first heard that concept and
described it made sense with how parents
that I've worked with like especially in
like the marching band Community like
have this like well this is how we did
it in my day so you should be doing it
that way too but like politicians in
particular they they may spend multiple
decades going through school and seeing
it being done in a very particular way
and so they learn what worked for them
but they did not learn what the thought
processes were and the context that were
in influencing the teachers and the
decisions that they made why they were
doing certain things whether it was a
policy or like a school mandate
administrator mandate or just modifying
to individuals so people spend so much
time observing teaching but not
understanding why and the context and so
they they walk out with this like a a
puzzle that is not completed yet but
they think it is and they don't realize
that they're missing so many of them
important pieces that would completely
change how a teacher might approach the
situation in a different context like
I'm very fortunate that I've worked in
every grade kindergarten through
doctoral student in a variety of
contexts whether it was very low
socioeconomic status to very high low
diversity in terms of racial diversity
to high racial diversity like a wide
variety of different contexts and that
has allowed me to see that one thing
might work great for one class and not
worked at all for a completely different
class and I don't think most people
outside of Education know that or
understand it I agree completely and
what you just said makes me think of
ecosystems and the healthy ecosystems
are diverse they have you know robust
different soil conditions and the soil
conditions and microclimates allow for
diverse set of plants which then be
different insects which feed different
larger organisms larger animals yeah you
can also think of ecosystems are very
are complex systems as well and you can
draw an analogy between education and
ecosystems that there are different
conditions in different places that
require different solutions different
approaches and yet it's a again a very
human thing to do and I want to respect
and although that you know I think the
vast majority of people thinking about
and working on education are doing so in
good faith yeah you know they want the
best for students and for teachers and
for the system it's not universally true
it's for the most part it's true but
it's very human to want to say
particularly you know since Henry Ford
the there's one way we can do this and
it'll work for everyone because that's
simple that's black and white and you
look to it what's the output of that
going to be and that's a dystopian
picture as well because if you use one
approach to learning you're likely to
have an output that's one approach to
the world and that just sets creativity
and discourse and you know so much
richness from the world yeah I I do
genuinely fear that the broader CS
discourse has been too influenced by
neoliberal influences and conversations
uh like making it so that the one way
that you could read a computer science
discourse at large is that the entire
purpose of Computer Science Education is
to get a job as a computer scientist or
in somehow tangentially related to
computer science and I've always been
against that like written papers about
it but like I I'm really curious what
your thoughts are on like generative AI
in relation to that kind of course and
just like the the impact on education at
large and Beyond like I was speaking to
one of my friends who's a professor and
he was saying that at a different
University not at his they found a
student who used chat GPT to answer
questions on like open response tests
and they're able to like analyze and
realize that it was chat GPT based off
of their prior answers so like it's
gonna have a profound impact on like
learning as a whole but also Computer
Science Education discourse like I know
that was a lot but I'm curious what your
perspectives are I've had similar I want
to say qualms but it's more than qualms
um you know disagreement with the
discourse about you know computer
science as a means to becoming a
programmer and achieving economic
freedom or just getting a good job to me
that's not an okay share being if
there's economic power that comes with
it that's great but it's not necessary
but not sufficient I've seen AI
programming coming for you years you
know 15 years at least and said you know
it's not going to be that long in
whatever scale we're looking at before
sort of lower level programming is done
by AI Bots and interesting as we record
this we're in a watershed moment where
Chachi BT is coming into a Zone and it's
only going to accelerate and get better
so there I've seen been trying to follow
the just flood of examples and
commentary that's been happening on this
as people realize oh my God it's here
you know it's been coming it's been here
and people are just realizing from these
few examples that just how powerful
things are already yeah I very much you
think that programming is going to be
different that you're going to have to
learn a different set of skills you may
not have to learn nearly as much syntax
say above a program language you may not
have to learn as many programming
languages you may be able to program
with just actual natural language human
natural language and asking the computer
to you know make an app that takes these
inputs and gives these outputs yeah
um you know make a app that calculates
and routes feature delivery trucks on
the with weighted towards getting pizza
there hot and using the least amount of
fossil fuel
who knows but you know my friend Daniel
Wendell who worked at the teacher
education program Lab at MIT and I used
to talk about when will we get to the
Star Trek level of computer power
computing power what do you say computer
tell me how long it will take to get to
Planet X in the you know why solar
system and or not even not even
specifying the solar system just on an X
and it will either know you're closest
to the particular that particular planet
that has that name if there are multiple
or ask you you know which one do you
want to go to so it'll be context aware
and we're getting there already with
Google assistant and things like that
it's really a fantastically interesting
time to be alive and watch this
development you know it's scary in ways
because it's changing and change is
scary but you know generative AI will
open up a lot of creative ability for
people who may not have you know the
years and years of programming training
that was once needed to do these things
and you know there will be a lot of hair
programming where you team up someone
who's a creative and a generative AI
program and someone who's got a little
bit more systems programming experience
and they will be a super powerful team
one thing that I've advocated to
students that I interact with at the
college level for quite some time is
related to this which is you know don't
get a degree in just computer science
unless you want to be work in
theoretical computer science and be
proving axioms and or writing
programming languages instead either in
One Direction or another either double
major or a minor in biology or a minor
in computer science with a major in
biology so that you have domain
knowledge Beyond just computer programs
if you want to be a programmer arm
yourself make yourself interesting so
that you can be conversion in some other
domain and I particularly believe a lot
in the power hour of business and
Humanities because you know programmers
are in some ways the well-paid worker
bees of society whereas the people who
understand the humanities and history
are the people who are going to really
have the power and be the ones who
change the way the world works and you
know even more so armed with knowledge
or technology I have a lot to sit with
and reflect on with what you're just
talking about I just the wheels are
definitely spinning I definitely
appreciate that I'm curious how do you
recommend we might ensure that Equity is
infused within this future direction
that involves trading alongside AI
within educational context or just for
the sake of creating Equity is hard to
ensure because the people who have the
resources have the resources maybe the
only or at least the best way to work
towards Equity is to really change the
way we understand the humanity of the
people around us and that's a huge task
and it doesn't scale um it happens
person to person or person to very small
community and I think it comes by
exposure to people who are different
than me so I could see you know some
interesting things happening actually
with technology and you know say VR here
or just various kinds of interactive
worlds whether it be you know chat or
you know 2D computer games or VR where
you're asked to do perspective taking
that of perspectives that are not your
own and realizing how much we have in
common with other people and so like
building a shared belief in equity is
the first stage towards Insurance equity
and I'm not sure there's much else you
know we can nibble around the edges
otherwise so it's going to be hard to
ensure equity and one thing again I'll
note from the systems this lab
conference is that what Equity means is
going to be interesting to watch over
the next 20 years and that we will be a
majority minority country if we are not
already before in the very near future
so we're going to see some really
interesting Dynamics as you know white
folks are not the majority in the
country anymore and they're trying to
hold on to power and this goes to
um this is courtesy of Michael McAfee
who's a CEO of policy link a non-profit
that does policy and advocacy work the
the system is arranged the way it is now
which is does not support Equity does
not support Equity across all sorts of
Dimensions but especially economic and
that we're seeing the beginnings of you
know a different color of people coming
into power but we're not necessarily
seeing a different model of what power
means or more Equitable system coming
online and you know that will be
problematic it'll be the new king same
as the old or queen ruler I I hear you
but I'm also concerned because I hear
you and I said looking at what I see
happening in the world right now I'm not
convinced we're heading in a more
Equitable future there are things that
are going on that are kind of trying
some people are trying to like bring us
back to segregation policies and I think
part of what's feeling that might be
that we are starting to live in narrower
and narrower like cones of awareness and
groups of people who all think the same
thing on one hand it's great to find
people who have a shared interest with
yourself but on the other hand if that's
all you listen to It's going to prevent
that diversity of perspective and
experience that I think can lead to
better outcomes in terms of empathizing
and understanding how not everyone
thinks and behaves the way that you do
and wants to live the way that you do
and so we've gotten this like Rift as a
country if we think of politics but even
just like outside of politics and other
areas of life that it feels like there's
a wedge being driven further so that
people are less likely to kind of
connect with each other and that kind of
concerns me when it comes to the
Equitable side of things is it seems
like things are getting worse with
equity in the last couple of years in
particular yes
I I don't think you know my last answer
or what you said are at all at odds with
each other yeah
um I believe firmly I will stand by my
answer that you know understanding
perspective taking and you know the
common humanity is a way to build equity
and probably you know I'd posit the best
way that doesn't mean that we're doing
it by any means or that we're on the
cusp of doing it some people are working
on it for sure but will it take hold and
take root I don't know yeah as I said
the powerful people are powerful and
this may Verge on conspiracy theory but
people in power benefit from this kind
of division along relatively unimportant
lines right yeah so you know if we're
fighting each other about you know the
color of our houses matching that is you
know that's small potatoes that doesn't
matter you know to my mind climate
change and building economic incentives
that are in line with ameliorating the
effects of climate change or the you
know two biggest issues that we face
right now and you know everything else
is and feel important and probably is
important in some ways but it all takes
a back seat to are we going to have a
world to live in 20 years from now right
and yeah people with economic power want
to maintain that economic power and so
changing incentive systems is scary to
them and they may resist or will resist
yeah even social power as well not just
economic like there's so many different
like layers of power like thinking from
like a bardugian perspective that like
people are like grasping to hold on to
and maintain and whatnot for sure I'm
curious like uh as somebody who has
admitted also like working through some
like mental health struggles and whatnot
how do you try and take care of yourself
and like prevent the burnout that can
come with working in education or even
specifically Equity when you're seeing
some like horrible atrocities that
you're trying to prevent or improve or
whatever like it's still heavy and it
can be very difficult at times to live
in that space sure so I'm not always
great at it you know one of my symptoms
is depression and that can be
exacerbated by or at least correlated
with you know observations on where the
world I feel like the world is going
that said I believe in the richness of
humanity and the enlivening capabilities
of just shared effort and shared Joy you
know just doing things together as a
team with other people is very very
important to me and contributes to my
well-being being around other people
frequently and diverse my well-being
things like singing together you know
just intentionally making opportunities
to be joyful together even in hard times
and you know I can't even pretend to
understand the African-American
experience you know the black experience
in this country but I can see the power
in you know song and enjoy in their
communities that I have to think you
know and provide some solace in hard
times do you have any questions for
myself or for the field one big question
for the field that I have is
particularly around Equity but around
Computer Science Education in general it
ties back to a lot of what we've talked
around economic concerns and funding
particularly for Computer Science
Education and that specifically that
we've seen a lot of funding coming from
corporations I think with a sometimes
explicit sometimes implicit desire to
have more people who are capable of
programming to become employees at those
companies and I see a conflict of
interest there between our Civic
interests that's happening these are
this is happening in public schools and
public schools to me are primarily for
benefiting the Learners and for
benefiting our society and it's not
clear to me that having private dollars
teaching you know paying for computer
science education is doing either of
those things as well as we want it to be
so the question then is what is a
difference hopefully better funding
model for Computer Science Education
yeah I've that's something that I've
been thinking about for years I've I've
spoken with other individuals within the
field who have worked at like other
organizations that I've never been a
part of and said things like well we
wanted this to be more Equitable but our
funder specifically said no no to like
an equity lesson or whatever and in
order to appease the funders like the
developers of like whatever it was like
a curriculum or something Have
explicitly made things more beneficial
for a company at the cost of what is
best for students and teachers and
society and I that's just so problematic
in my opinion another layer to consider
with this that I've really been sitting
with quite a bit is there's a lot of
money that goes towards professional
development like a district having to
pay for that or even an individual but
there are ways to be able to put that
content out there for free on YouTube
and so that's something that I plan on
doing over the course of the next year
to try and help people who can't afford
it or who don't want to buy into
whatever it is the corporate influence
that basically bought and paid for a
professional development or curriculum
or whatever that basically is catered to
to that corporate need at whatever level
whether it is literally getting rid of
equity related conversations or um even
less deviant examples similar to that
yes absolutely and it can be less overt
but just as Insidious that you know
producing a curriculum or professional
development that claims to
we focus on Equity but it does a really
bad job of it yeah and there are
examples of that from prominent
organizations yeah it's a challenging
set of issues to unpack and work on
there's another one that I really don't
know it's a hard question
um that is unique to Computer Science
Education or in many ways unique there's
some in physics some in chemistry but if
you're highly qualified to teach
computer science you're probably also
qualified make three times as much money
programming for one of these big
corporations and there will be some
people who decide to do teaching because
it enriches their soul or because they
believe in the social benefit or whatnot
but teaching is hard teaching is really
hard and as we talked about conditions
for teachers are not great right now so
how do we find a way to get more
well-qualified people into the
classrooms teaching computer science and
while I believe firmly in organized
labor in unions this becomes a challenge
because districts public districts can't
because of Union contracts can't pay an
English teacher differently from a
computer science teacher for the same
number of years experience and same
education level as far as I know you
know this is a place where the supply
and demand thing comes in and says you
know if I can earn three times as much
programming for Facebook as I can
teaching high school computer science
you know maybe I would think about it if
I could make double the money that I can
currently make in high school I would
think about teaching but we can't do
that and as I said I hugely value the
humanities so I don't want to you know
I'd rather just say okay let's make
teaching a more compelling profession
financially yeah that's an interesting
thing to tackle I don't know what that's
going to look like like 10 years from
now what are the average teacher salary
going to be Etc and is it going to
change depending on what subjects you
teach I mean there is discussion on like
should you pay different amounts
depending on what degree you're trying
to get so like these conversations are
happening but whether or not something
comes of it I don't know are there any
questions that we haven't discussed or
that I haven't asked that you like to
chat about so this isn't so much a
question that but just something I'd
love to say I know you have an audience
of Educators and I just want to
celebrate what teachers and educators
are doing in our country and around the
world it's such an important job and
there's so many people that are trying
their absolute hardest and very
challenging situations and they deserve
praise and celebration I love working
with teachers it's just a highlight of
my day when I get to work with teachers
and run a professional development and
help them become better at their job or
just help them feel better about
themselves and the job they're doing so
you know so much respect to those people
and you know thank you where my people
go to connect with you and the
organizations that you work with I work
at the teaching systems lab as MIT as I
said and you can find it at
tsl.mit.edu I hope you enjoyed that
conversation with Josh I know I
certainly did if you be so kind please
consider sharing this with somebody else
even it's just sending a text to
somebody saying hey you should check out
this episode or sharing it on social
media it just helps more people find
this podcast as well as the free
computer science education resources on
my website and all the drumming and
gaming stuff that I share on there as
well thank you so much for listening
stay tuned for another episode next week
until then I hope you're all staying
safe and are having a wonderful week

Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode

Other podcast episodes that were mentioned or are relevant to this episode
- How to Get Started with Computer Science Education
  - In this episode I provide a framework for how districts and educators can get started with computer science education for free.
- Reconceptualizing “Music Making:” Music Technology and Freedom in the Age of Neoliberalism
  - In this episode I unpack Benedict and O’Leary’s (2019) publication titled “Reconceptualizing “music making:” Music technology and freedom in the age of Neoliberalism,” which explores the use of computer science practices to counter neoliberal influence on education.
- Whose Imaginings? Whose Future?
  - In this episode I unpack Stauffer’s (2017) keynote titled “Whose imaginings? Whose future?,” which encourages educators to reflect on who is the shaping the future of their field.
- More episodes related to AI
- More episodes related to discourse
- More episodes related to neoliberalism
- More episodes related to social and emotional learning (SEL)
- All other episodes
Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter