Intersections of Equity, Making, and Computer Science with Roxana Hadad

Intersections of Equity, Making, and Computer Science with Roxana Hadad
Jared O'Leary
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In this interview with Roxana Hadad, we discuss the blurring of formal and informal learning within makerspaces and culture, how Roxana’s understanding of education evolved over time, feeling lost when having too much choice with one’s learning, the intersections of makerspaces and equity, problematizing discourse and definitions around computational thinking and computer science, preventing burnout while working on many different projects, feeling a lack of agency in education, the future of communication for academics, and so much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    csk8 podcast my name is Jared O'Leary

    each week of this podcast is either an

    interview with a guest or multiple

    guests or a solo episode where I unpack

    some scholarship in relation to Computer

    Science Education in this week's episode

    I'm having a conversation with Roxanna

    Haddad where we discuss blurring a

    formal and informal learning within

    makerspaces and culture araksana's

    understanding of Education evolved over

    time feeling lost when having too much

    Choice with one's own learning the

    intersections of makerspace's inequity

    problematizing discourse and definitions

    around computational thinking and

    computer science preventing burnout or

    working on many different projects

    feeling a lack of agency in education

    the future of communication for

    academics and so much more as always you

    can find links to some of the things

    that we mentioned as well as some more

    related podcast episodes in the show

    notes and you can find that at

    jaredolary.com or by clicking the link

    in the app that you're listening to this

    on wherever you can find in your

    description while you're there you'll

    notice that this podcast is powered by

    boot up professional development which

    is the non-profit that I work for you

    want to learn more about the free

    curriculum that I create for Scratch and

    scratch Junior check out boo.pd.org you

    can also learn about RP paid

    professional development but with all

    that being said we will now begin with

    an introduction by Roxanna I'm the

    daughter of Cuban immigrants I was born

    and raised in a suburb outside of

    Chicago and I was one of very few

    Latinas in my school my mom was a

    bilingual kindergarten Chicago public

    school teacher for 33 years my answer

    CPS teachers my grandma was a school

    teacher in Cuba so I was sort of raised

    in the world of public education my mom

    and dad got my brothers and I a computer

    pretty early on so it was like maybe

    eight or ten years old I mean early on

    before like lots of people had computers

    in their houses I subscribed to the

    magazine three two one contact they came

    with these like programs that you could

    recreate and adapt in basic and so I was

    programming in basic and I loved doing

    it and I did that you know mostly in

    elementary middle school I had some

    contact with computer science not that

    much and then in high school there was a

    class in Hometown language it was I

    don't know if it was basic or Pascal and

    I had a friend try to encourage me to do

    it with him and it was all guys and so I

    told him no way like I just didn't I was

    totally uninterested in being in class

    with all guys so I spent high school

    without doing much programming I

    graduated from high school and then I

    struggled with whether to go to a

    four-year or in art school like a

    regular four-year in art school because

    I trained as an artist for most of my

    life but I decided in the end to go to

    the University of Illinois at Urbana for

    undergrad is right after the national

    Center for super Computing applications

    NCSA it developed Eudora and Mosaic to

    browse the web and this stuff is so old

    everyone's going to be like why do you

    forget such an old person and so like

    you ABI at that time like I just

    everything was like the internet like

    everybody's so geeked out about the

    internet because it just was like it was

    very new for so many people and I don't

    know it was really an exciting time to

    be at U of I I oh I left I didn't go to

    art school I really wanted to keep that

    side of myself so at U of I I started

    working for departments doing different

    things like doing high resolution

    scanning for the art history department

    and I was doing like front end and back

    end development for the foreign language

    department but anything that I could use

    like design and art stuff I started

    doing after graduation I started working

    as a writer for a.com and I realized I

    just really liked this technical side of

    things I went to nyu's interactive

    telecommunications program at the Tisch

    School of the Arts for my Master's

    Degree and that let me combine art with

    technology in a way that I hadn't really

    imagined before like my first contact

    with physical Computing with maker

    spaces game design that experience was

    super formative for me this it kind of

    laid the foundation for a lot of my

    career henceforth and probably because I

    came from a family we have Educators I

    was resistant to doing anything in

    education but I kept getting drawn into

    issues of Education while I was at NYU

    so after I graduated from NYU I went to

    work at Northwestern University at this

    place called the collaboratory which

    doesn't exist anymore but it was a super

    forward-thinking group of programmers

    that were really into developing the

    thing I could maybe compare it to now is

    something like schoolology but it was

    Messier and cooler and it was where kids

    could post their work and they could

    reflect on it and others could comment

    on it all over the world and teachers

    could comment and and it was just a

    really Innovative online space for

    classrooms and then while I was there I

    was at a Adobe education leader

    conference and I met Greg Hodgson and

    Ian Usher and they saw some of the games

    I had been programming at NYU I had done

    some game design and they wanted me to

    teach their kids but they lived in

    London and I wasn't really sure how that

    was going to happen and we used Adobe

    Connect to bring in so I started

    designing these classes where I would

    give a little bit of Game Theory I'd

    bring in a guest speaker on a topic and

    then these kids would learn programming

    to design these games even though they

    were like a little bit outside of London

    and I was in Chicago that got me super

    excited about just this idea of what

    these kids were learning and how they

    were learning it and so I learned a

    little bit about computational thinking

    and then I decided to go to the

    University of Illinois at Chicago to get

    my PhD in educational psychology

    studying computational thinking and at

    the same time I started working at the

    center for college access and success at

    Northeastern Illinois University where I

    started developing like out of school

    programming for students in Title 1

    schools in Chicago Public Schools they

    were all part of the Gear Up program

    which is this program that serves Title

    One schools my job there was like I was

    just trying to expose students to ideas

    of game design computer science robotics

    just maker stuff and so I was doing a

    lot of that work and at the same time

    Irene Lee who is now at MIT she asked me

    to become part of the csta's

    computational thinking task force and

    then that started really shaping my

    thinking around computational thinking

    then around that time I was still a PhD

    student and I got an NSF Grant a

    National Science Foundation Grant to

    study the assessment of computational

    thinking and maker environments and that

    became part of my dissertation so if

    you're interested in assessing

    computational thinking first I recommend

    you read our paper formative assessment

    for computational thinking maker spaces

    but I think you really have to be

    creative and think of ways to make

    thinking visible part of the problem

    with computational thinking is that it's

    thinking but good assessment allows you

    to learn about yourself or about the

    content while you're doing the

    assessment that it's the assessment just

    doesn't exist just to assess you so I've

    had a lot of success in having students

    do like think alouds where they narrate

    what they're doing getting them to

    identify the process while they're using

    it really pushing the metacognitive

    skills while they're doing these think

    alouds and especially when they're

    debugging and drawing out a problem or

    writing out a problem has been a really

    good way for students to make problems

    more tangible and to make the thinking

    more visible exactly when that Grant

    ended I joined the Cs Equity project at

    UCLA Center X that's been nothing but an

    absolute Joy like working with Jane

    Margolis Gene Roo Julie flapping they've

    just done so much in the field and

    they've shaped so much of my thinking

    around what computer science education

    is and what it should be and ideas of

    equity and they're just amazing human

    beings I started working there on a

    research practice partnership called

    scale VA that IT addresses the systemic

    nature of Computer Science Education by

    building the capacity of not just

    teachers generally a lot of this these

    ideas years of equity are focused on

    teachers but also including the

    administrators policy makers counselors

    most of my work has been with

    administrators since then by

    administrators I mean like School

    leaders having them explore their own

    biases and the policies and structures

    and their institutions that prevent them

    from helping students get engaged in

    computer science Julie calls this kind

    of like focus on the teachers admin and

    policy makers the three C's the

    classroom the county and the capital and

    we're now expanding into a fourth sea

    which includes the community and we have

    a new employee called Nazario who is

    helping us on that and now like I do

    work on cs4ca our computer science for

    California which are Statewide movement

    to expand computer science most of my

    focus now is we just got a large

    educator Workforce investment Grant from

    the state of California to expand the

    work we've been doing with scale and

    computer science for California work

    calling it the seasons of Cs we had this

    pilot program where we just did like a

    TS PD week and we wanted to expand that

    the professional learning of cspd weeks

    to teams of counselors teachers and

    administrators and we're expanding it

    not just through this idea of who gets

    it but across the entire State of

    California to expand the work we've been

    doing with scale and computer science

    for California we're calling it the

    seasons of Cs we're expanding it from a

    pilot that was the summer of Cs which

    provided professional learning to teams

    of teachers counselors administrators in

    a cspd week model and we're now

    expanding this across the state of

    California through the county offices in

    every region and then expanding it

    throughout the year and building

    communities of practice to develop folks

    into what we're calling CS Champions

    which are like advocates for Equitable

    computer science for all students so

    like being a musician I have had a lot

    of formal and informal experiences that

    like profoundly impact my thoughts on

    music education the way that you just

    kind of described your background had a

    lot of informal non-formal kind of

    blurred in with formal experiences

    obviously getting a doctorate but then

    maker spaces depending on how they are

    implemented whether it's during school

    or after school can kind of be that like

    merging together of informal with formal

    I'm curious like how your experiences in

    these different contexts have kind of

    shaped your understandings of well what

    might a maker space look like or even

    what my education look like in general

    yeah I mean I think a lot of this is the

    siloing of how education operates

    currently is definitely a detriment to

    learning the way I got into CS was you

    know I described it a little bit but

    like really like I wanted to make I drew

    little characters on a screen and I

    wanted to make them move and interact

    with people when you know they move

    their Mouse over them that's essentially

    how I started learning the program and I

    think for other kids it's you know

    robotics or it's doing circuitry or it's

    doing music but the way Educational

    Systems are set up right now there's

    just this a lot of this is driven by

    assessment right like we have to make

    sure that students learn the certain

    content area in certain disciplines

    because of that we draw these lines

    between things and that's what I love

    about makerspaces is I feel like it

    blurs those lines a little bit and

    allows for students to connect different

    parts of their identity in a Makerspace

    I hope that there's more of these kinds

    of spaces during the actual school day

    and not just an after-school experience

    because that's making it really

    Equitable and having students really

    engage with their ideas of who they are

    how they can engage with that I identity

    in a way that they can create and they

    can make something that's for them or

    for their Community okay that really

    resonates with me so for my own

    dissertation I was looking at people on

    an online discussion forum talking about

    chiptunes which is music made from like

    retro computer and video game hardware

    and so there's a lot of engineering that

    goes on design and Manufacturing to be

    able to create chips to connect new

    devices to the old like a Sega Genesis

    or Mega Drive but then there's also a

    lot of programming that goes on like it

    blurs these disciplinary lines and silos

    that exist in ways that I honestly

    couldn't find a framework to really

    describe it well enough until I looked

    at maker scholarship and was like ah

    okay so here's people who are talking

    about informal non-formal spaces

    typically this makes sense like the way

    that people are engaging with it but

    it's just so different from what

    actually goes on inside of the classroom

    and it was interesting going through

    this process because it wasn't really

    until the PHD when I really gotta say in

    what I wanted to learn and up until then

    I was like well School works great if

    you're interested in it otherwise it

    sucks but once you finally get out to

    the PHD level it's all right what do you

    want to learn what are you interested in

    I'm like ah now we can actually explore

    whatever Direction I want to go in other

    than just an elective and even then it's

    still like you chose a topic that you're

    interested in we're going down a path

    that everybody goes in but this is very

    different than the way that I actually

    approach the classroom when I finished

    doing my residency I'm curious for you

    like how has your understanding of

    Education kind of evolved or changed

    over time I think two ways the first way

    and so much of this is because of my own

    personal experience a lot of the work

    that I've done at the Cs Equity project

    and really investigating issues of

    equity I think subconsciously I really

    believed in this idea of meritocracy I

    worked really hard in school unlike you

    I really liked the classroom structure I

    had the privilege you know coming from a

    middle class family I have light skin I

    have blue gray eyes I had all the stuff

    and I really believed that due to my

    hard work in this classroom that is how

    I became successful and by successful I

    mean like I got to go to college and it

    sounds super naive now but I really

    bought into this idea I think of

    meritocracy and I also I think didn't

    really recognize the challenges I had

    faced like without you know that I was

    identified as female and that I was

    Latina and that I was first generation

    natively born and the structures that I

    didn't know the ins and outs of so so I

    think that is one way that the nature of

    education has changed for me but I think

    also that just playing the game that I'm

    talking about in the classroom that I

    did quite well I think was also a bit of

    a detriment like and I saw this with

    some of the students in the Makerspace

    is that I led that they really struggled

    with ambivalence that they had like

    we've open-ended kind of prompts when

    there isn't a very clear path forward as

    to connecting with like what you want to

    do and how to make that happen I saw

    myself and a lot of these students where

    they're like wait I can do you know what

    I want and I would develop prompts for

    them but like you know within that

    prompt they had freedom and this Freedom

    they struggled with and I think not all

    of them I'm thinking of these specific

    students with whom I identified with

    that yeah when placed outside of the

    regular structure of the school day they

    had a hard time so I'm curious if we can

    dive into that more so when placed out

    of the structure may have felt a little

    like aimless or lost but did you feel

    that way or even your students feel that

    way when engaging in like non-formal

    types of learning like whether it's like

    oh I want to learn how to do this type

    of artwork and you're doing it outside

    of a class did you feel like you were

    lost then Martinez and Steger talk about

    this a lot in their books about maker

    spaces it's about a really good prompt

    right like I luckily had teachers so

    when I'm thinking about art my art

    classes my instructors they would

    essentially be giving us prompts like

    you have to do something with just pen

    and ink black and white that focuses on

    you know gradients and it has to be an

    animal or whatever and they would place

    these prompts and I would be able to

    pick among their I think when we pushed

    students to really and myself I know

    this happened to me in grad school I had

    my Master's Degree before I went to PhD

    and my Master's Degree was my first

    taste of what you were talking about in

    this kind of graduate school kind of you

    lead your education and for me that was

    it was a bit of a challenge like really

    trying to figure out what it is who I

    was outside of the structure of the

    school day that it wasn't just about

    answering questions on a test again a it

    was more about really figuring out your

    own identity and the path you want to

    move forward and I don't think my

    schooling did a lot of amazing things

    for me but I think it could have done

    more to really help me engage in that

    way yeah I noticed that a lot with

    students and then I even noticed that

    with myself when you are basically

    socialized for years sometimes decades

    into one way of schooling and learning

    well schooling I should say and then

    you're being presented the opportunity

    needed to do it in a completely

    different way where you have choice and

    can explore whatever Direction you want

    to it can be overwhelming at times and

    just like wait I'm lost this isn't what

    I'm used to let's go back to the thing

    that I'm more comfortable with as

    opposed to being able to explore things

    that are interesting to an individual

    I'm curious for you when you were

    exploring research on maker spaces what

    surprised you about it okay two things I

    think

    thing was this this research came out of

    my own like just observing and I was

    noticing with the students their

    struggle with this and like legitimately

    students like asking me but what is the

    answer like

    yeah it were uncomfortable with me

    telling them here are some components

    for a circuit you come up with whatever

    you know like configurations of a

    circuit you want to make with and

    they're like yes but what do you want me

    to make and I like trying to tell them

    like you can make whatever you want a

    lot of times this was a high achieving

    students but not always like you know

    sometimes it wasn't you know it was

    students all along like who were

    successful at playing the school game

    and some who were not it was interesting

    to me to see how different that was I

    think in reading about maker spaces and

    not like necessarily a surprise but

    something I hadn't really considered as

    much before what was exciting to me

    about makerspaces was that students

    could bring not just their own identity

    but the identity of their families into

    a Makerspace so maker space cases then

    value the kind of learning that their

    families have in ways that aren't really

    like in American culture American

    society aren't always valued so you know

    a mechanic or somebody who bakes or

    somebody who sews like that's what was

    exciting about Makerspace to me is that

    all of a sudden like all of this

    knowledge These funds of knowledge are

    then appreciated and tapped into so we

    did that with our Makerspace like we

    would have Show and Tell and just have

    kids like it didn't have anything with

    what they were doing in Makerspace but

    stuff they did at home that completely

    disassociated but like was part of who

    they were so kids brought in like their

    tajido their crochets their the

    paintings they made I remember one kid

    she would make model cars with her dad

    who was a mechanic and she would bring

    those in just for them to start really

    thinking about who they were who their

    family was and providing that kind of

    foundation for where they might want to

    go with the things that they were making

    so I'm seeing a ton of connections

    between what you're just describing with

    maker spaces and then what I know you've

    talked about and done with your more

    Equity centered work and whatnot and

    like even like what was it last night

    when we were talking about the k-por

    framework and applying that like I'm

    curious if you could be more explicit

    for a teacher who is like unable to make

    that connection that I see you doing

    right there with between like maker

    spaces and then Equity related

    discussions what Makerspace is allowed

    for is this connection between students

    home life and their internal life and if

    done in that way it also with content

    that like academic learning and not in a

    way that you would normally think of

    academic learning but it's coming from

    within them to pursue a project that

    requires them to then find the sources

    of their own motivation to then find

    solutions to problems they want to

    answer those problems can come from

    things they are facing things their

    communities are facing and what's

    exciting about maker spaces is that it's

    a space not to be reductive you know

    they connect both online and offline and

    you have connections with people who are

    probably more expert than you and less

    expert than you but the interaction

    between those groups of people really

    start generating these kinds of ideas

    that don't normally happen if you are in

    isolation thinking about these projects

    and you also have access to materials

    whether that be like just a laptop for

    you to make like a game or a song or

    something like that but sometimes it's

    like yarn and cardboard tubes or

    whatever but the access to materials

    that make you really be able to

    prototype and build things that are part

    of that motivation I appreciate the

    emphasis on the idea of it's a space

    like I've talked about this in the

    previous podcasts on maker culture maker

    spaces but then also on Affinity spaces

    which are more like informal

    characteristics and how I applied them

    into the classroom like there is an

    ontology of being a maker that can be

    applied outside of maker spaces so you

    can apply it in your computer science

    class or your music class or social

    studies or whatever like it's just a way

    of being or learning or experiencing

    that doesn't have to take place in these

    specific spaces labeled as Makerspace

    that are during school or after school

    or whatever no absolutely and I think

    the other tricky thing with making and

    maker spaces is the same thing we're

    kind of up against in the computer

    science Community which is it has been

    associated with this CIS white guy yeah

    building these things who's part of the

    maker Community or part of the yes

    Community when neither of those spaces

    you know should they claim ownership too

    so I think there's just so much overlap

    between those spaces which is why I was

    really interested to see like how could

    we work on these kind of skills that we

    build in maker spaces to build identity

    and as a computer scientist in in

    students regardless of being in a

    Makerspace or not yeah that's a good

    point there's a podcast that I did it's

    on an article called making through the

    lens of culture and power toward

    Transformer divisions for educational

    equity and so that talks specifically

    about how while the maker practices are

    awesome the way that it's presented is

    as if this is new shiny thing largely

    for white males to engage in but really

    it's coming from typically Blue Collar

    jobs and from marginalized groups and

    that is like kind of pushed to the

    Wayside and it's like oh here's this new

    thing you can do and it's like well

    actually there's a long history of

    professions people who actually do this

    and we can't just ignore them in the

    history that goes behind that so

    appreciate [ __ ] you pointing that out

    yeah just by slapping the name Maker's

    face on it like it's not you know I

    remember the first time I described this

    to a teacher a Makerspace to a teacher

    and she was like oh you're talking about

    like shop class and at first I was like

    no it's totally different from shop

    class and then after a while I was like

    no actually it's laughing about class

    like yeah yeah I'm honestly I'm grateful

    that I had a shop class in Middle School

    like I learned so many tools it was a

    three-day weekend and I spent most of it

    like renoing our house like using a

    miter saws like I actually know how to

    use this thing yay

    I don't remember anything for my shot

    pass so I'm so super impressed with you

    right now I made some cool stuff too but

    I don't remember how I did it well In

    fairness I did have a refresher I would

    like after I finished the the PHD I did

    a volunteer work with Habitat for

    Humanity and learned how to build a

    house from the like slab up so like it

    was like oh yeah I forgot this like it

    was a long time ago but now I remember

    how to use a miter saw whatever

    I think too like what you were talking

    about in terms of the maker space all of

    a sudden like oh this is Makerspace and

    now this is a new shiny thing yeah I

    think the same thing can be said of I

    think we're in danger of that with

    computational thinking where we say I

    have my own definition of computational

    thinking and I you know if I described

    what computational thinking is I think

    most people would be like wait that's

    critical thinking or that's mathematical

    thinking or that's reasoning or you know

    there's lots of things where they would

    be like this has been done before this

    is not and I think that's the danger of

    both computational thinking and computer

    science where we can sometimes think

    that we're the end-all be-all yes in our

    community and I think this is an issue

    of equity as well we have to pay

    attention to the fact that other fields

    have a lot to offer and that if

    understanding computational thinking is

    the best way to solve problems are the

    only way to solve problems then we would

    have no problems and like you know

    there's enough computer scientists

    already you know and I think we've

    figured out by now that like being a

    computer scientist does not make you

    better at solving problems in fact you

    might create more so I think it's how

    you frame computational thinking too

    like it depends on how you do it you can

    use computational thinking for good or

    for not so good yeah it has this

    potential to come across as like

    colonizing epistemologies and to even

    frame other entire disciplines as a

    deficit like hey Arts we've been doing

    things for thousands of years that's

    nice and all but have you heard of

    computational thinking it's this new

    thing and then it's like ignore your

    thousands of years of traditions and

    ways of thinking and understanding we as

    the non-artists are going to show you

    what you're supposed to do as artists by

    thinking computational things it's like

    wait what like it doesn't make sense

    yeah I mean we're super what is the word

    like just arrogant we're like in the Cs

    Ed Community we've become incredibly

    arrogant and I mean that's a function of

    like how pervasive Technologies become

    right so it's in everything so we can

    say well we think we can say like oh

    well you've got to figure out this like

    one scratch with this yes Band-Aid this

    is what's going to figure it out and it

    goes back to what I was saying before

    that it's really this integration of

    disciplines and really understanding how

    having an understanding of History

    having an understanding of Ethics having

    an understanding of design all of those

    things are really important when we are

    creating any kind of application yeah

    and your point about like Tech being and

    everything and like that kind of being

    used almost as like a platform to stand

    on for a lot of like advocacy work like

    yes it is in everything however it was

    designed and optimized for white and

    Western cultures and so if we are

    positioning this this is literally

    colonizing like ways of being if we're

    saying no everybody needs to to adhere

    to this and understand this disposition

    or thinking or whatever so my definition

    I use them because they kind of did a

    meta study of definitions of

    computational thinking and I also use

    like the dispositions that iste and csta

    had put together the concepts that Selby

    and Willard had put together as long as

    you frame those in a way that you

    situate it in cultural context and you

    are critical when you are using them so

    you know when you were doing like

    evaluation is the one I most often point

    to which is one of the concepts of

    computational thinking when you were

    evaluating something you're not just

    evaluating it for is it fast and

    efficient but you're evaluating it like

    in terms of what communities does this

    benefit what communities does this harm

    how is this impact the environment how

    does this impact specific people in

    their daily lives so I mean that is part

    of if you're doing computational

    thinking in the way it should be done in

    my opinion then you know you're not

    engaging in a logical colonization I

    feel like if you're if you're doing it

    from a critical lens and understanding

    the history and culture and values of

    the communities and with which you want

    to engage yeah one of the interesting

    aspects of computational thinking is

    such a vague term and like everybody

    like you mentioned that kind of has

    their own definition and on one hand

    I've mentioned several times on the

    podcast I strongly value

    multi-perspectival approaches where you

    look at things from different angles but

    when it comes to like not even be able

    to have the same understanding of a term

    it leads to some tricky territories so

    I've done some podcasts where I talk

    about curriculum and how the word

    integration might mean one thing to one

    person and then a completely different

    thing to a different person whether it's

    interdisciplinary transdisciplinary

    multidisciplinary plural like there's so

    many different ways that we can talk

    about well what does this look like who

    does it serve Etc and then the same

    thing with computational thinking so

    like on one hand I value it but on the

    other hand it's like okay when a

    district says they want to integrate

    computational thinking into the

    classroom room there's so many different

    variants of that that of meanings that

    maybe the admin means one thing and then

    a teacher means a different thing and

    parents might look at this as a

    different thing so I'm curious if you

    see strength or weakness or somewhere in

    between with like the vagueness of the

    term and lack of consensus I mean I

    think a lot

    you know the computational part is what

    I talked about before like how is this

    different from like critical thinking

    how is this just exclusive to a

    computational way of solving a problem I

    think Peter Denning has talked about

    this before I think he's on to something

    when he calls it computational design

    where you incorporate the actual doing

    of computing with the iterative process

    of design like this is the other problem

    with the word computational thinking

    which is the thinking part because

    thinking is internal you can't see

    thinking so what is it exactly you're

    asking students to do when you want them

    to engage in computational thinking you

    are obviously you want some sort of

    output but how are you measuring that

    this is where all this definitional

    confusion is coming from I think those

    two words are in themselves are quite

    vague I suppose for me it's become an

    asset making sure that education is

    equity centered Equity minded in that I

    can use computation thinking as a

    framing for how to explore problems with

    an equity lens because I can ask folks

    when they're looking at patterns I can

    ask those okay if you're looking at

    patterns look at this data on air

    quality within this community as opposed

    to other communities what are the

    patterns you see I can also have them

    you know like I said look at do

    evaluations on their software in

    consideration of how that impacts a

    community how that impacts the

    environment how that impacts individuals

    CT is not always defined I think there's

    people who really who really lean into

    mostly like the algorithms devoid of how

    those algorithms are designed with

    specific communities in mind it's more

    you know they think of these things as

    though they are completely separate from

    the culture from which they are created

    like you were talking about all this

    technology G that's everywhere was

    developed by CIS white men so you know

    what does it mean then to develop this

    technology develop these algorithms with

    a broader understanding of society in

    mind when you are developing them yeah I

    wonder if we can actually dive into that

    a little bit more because the way that

    computational thinking is discussed is

    typically in relation to solving a

    problem like a math problem or something

    not necessarily to solving larger Equity

    related issues and in fact computational

    thinking is often not really discussed

    in relation to equity problems or just

    equity in general I'm wondering if you

    could like elaborate on those

    intersections more computational

    thinking to me is where we can bring in

    the understanding of equity into

    computer science by exploring these

    different ideas so for instance if we're

    talking about algorithms just being

    mindful of how you're designing these

    algorithms and who is designing these

    algorithms so who is creating this do

    they understand their own privilege

    their own biases are they developing

    this algorithm within a team then if

    it's patterns what kind of patterns are

    you looking for and where are you

    looking for them how are you abstracting

    those patterns by abstraction I mean

    like you are removing information you

    deem as unimportant you are focusing on

    the important data what are the

    decisions that go into that abstraction

    as to what is important and what isn't

    important when you're looking at data

    and then evaluation as I mentioned is

    like a huge place where I think a lot of

    these ideas of equity can come into

    place oh decomposition I forgot like

    breaking down a problem into its

    different pieces just how you break down

    a problem as to again like what you feel

    is essential to that problem helps

    design the way that you solve that

    problem it's really about focusing on

    what lens you're using in creating what

    you think the problem is and that lens

    is also useful When developing a

    solution I do like to incorporate the

    dispositions that iste and cstas and

    these are old these are from like 2011

    but I still think they're important

    because of what I witnessed in the

    Makerspace this idea of you know the

    discomfort with ambivalence and

    open-endedness and this again is an

    equity issue I really do think these

    dispositions are important because I

    think but I want them to be used

    appropriately like you should use

    dispositions to shape what you want the

    environment to be like for your students

    I think we get into danger when we user

    dispositions in terms of assessment like

    does my student have computational

    thinking skills and then you know can

    they persevere right it's like that

    whole idea of grit and when you have

    students who are facing so much in their

    lives in terms of racism misogyny just

    systemic oppression you don't want to

    approach these dispositions in a way of

    like oh well you know you're scoring low

    on perseverance or anything like that

    it's more for the instructor to really

    think about like what environment am I

    creating to make sure you can encourage

    these dispositions to take place I think

    that's what's important when we're

    talking about ideas of equity and

    computational thinking how does this

    conversation kind of relate to or

    diverge from the UCLA computer science

    Equity project the way it relates in

    terms of my work and we have various

    projects at the Cs Equity project and my

    colleague Gene Roo does a lot of work

    around student voice in computer science

    education and so the work that she does

    definitely applies with what I've just

    been talking about but I also do think

    it applies in the work that I've been

    doing with Julie flappen around these

    more institutional structures this

    implementation like how to implement

    computer science equitably in that we

    want to make sure that we don't just

    roll out computer science in California

    in a way that is for instance like just

    say like it's a graduation requirement

    everyone needs to take computer science

    without really considering like what

    that means so like what I just discussed

    in terms of like assessment and

    culturally responsive pedagogy if those

    things aren't in place then what we're

    doing is exacerbating the inequities

    that already exist within the

    educational system and what's exciting

    about computer science at least in

    California is that it's it's pretty

    nascent so we have an opportunity now to

    carve our own path and it's a way for us

    to really as Julie says kind of like

    bake equity in make sure it's it's part

    of the foundation of what we're doing

    and really intentionally go and build

    this path so that when CS you know if it

    is a requirement one day it's done in a

    way that students are assessed if they

    have to be assessed in a way that takes

    in mind who they are and isn't

    reinforcing biases that are already in

    place and that they're getting a

    computer science education that is

    culturally responsive that is important

    to making sure that we're not again just

    exacerbating these inequities that are

    already in place one of the issues that

    I've kind of thought out loud on this

    podcast about is like the different

    images of curriculum where some people

    see curriculum as like discrete subject

    areas or as content knowledge or as as

    learning specific standards or concepts

    and practices but then others view

    curriculum as social reproduction or

    social deconstruction or trying to make

    improvements like whether it's

    deconstructing it and then rebuilding it

    in like a new way and so it's more

    Equity focused and so there's this like

    butting of heads that happens between

    the people who tend to lean more towards

    notes should just focus on the content

    and then other people who are like No it

    should focus on improving Society in

    some way and because they're using kind

    of the same words like computational

    thinking but they mean different things

    then it's like they're unable to see

    like oh we're actually talking about two

    separate things even though we're using

    the same vocabulary so in that scale

    research practice partnership one thing

    we did as a community throughout the

    research practice partnership was Define

    equity and we did it at the start of the

    research practice partner set we did it

    about two years after that and than we

    did it a year after that and this

    practice of defining it together as a

    community it provided us with like this

    foundational Language by which we all

    knew what we were talking about when we

    used the word Equity because equities

    really gotten watered down lately right

    like everybody uses that word but we all

    could talk about what it meant in the

    same way and then but it also provided

    like this place for discussion and it

    was difficult discussions like really

    uncomfortable discussions but there are

    discussions that need to be had and I

    think providing these kinds of spaces

    for educators to come together and

    Define these terms like Equity like

    computational thinking for the very

    reasons you're talking about because

    it's really difficult for us to all go

    in a Direction together if what we're

    coming from it from completely different

    ways and just this process of Us coming

    together and like defining Equity there

    was so much dialogue that had taken

    place to really understand and where

    other people were coming from it really

    solidified us as a group I feel like

    because we had this shared understanding

    and also because we had these

    conversations with one another I really

    appreciate you saying that I think it

    recently came out there was an episode I

    did on a article by Proctor where they

    were talking about how like they had

    different definitions of computer

    science and when they're talking about

    how to implement across K-12 in a

    district like they just they were

    talking about the same thing in

    different ways and they didn't realize

    that so it would have helped to Define

    it so totally agree with you like it

    makes sense I just wish like politicians

    and like people in society would sit

    down and talk about what do these terms

    mean instead of just like using

    buzzwords and throwing memes around that

    just upset other groups of people yeah

    none of these things are terms I think

    that we can just Define it and walk away

    like they they are living words and yeah

    this is why we defined equity in 2019

    before covid before the murder of George

    Floyd before the Insurrection so you

    know defining it after that and then

    defining it again and I think there's

    been a lot of changes you know like Roe

    v Wade and stuff like that who are going

    to make us rethink how we Define equity

    one more time these are terms that you

    have to Define and redefine and redefine

    because we are approaching these words

    very differently especially the word

    equity which has become kind of this

    like almost nothing word because

    everyone's using it in totally different

    ways yeah and I think that's a part of

    like Paulo Freddie's pedagogy the press

    that is often

    misunderstood or not thought about

    enough is like there is that dialogue

    between oppressor and oppressed but it's

    a continuous dialogue that you need to

    keep revisiting it it's not like all

    right we had our discussion and

    everything's solved cool we can move on

    and never have to come back to this

    problem again yeah and I mean that's

    what Equity work is right like there's

    never going to be a time when we're like

    well everything's Equitable like it's

    done now like I mean obviously there's

    goals and there's outcomes like we want

    that outcome where you know you can't

    tell who took computer science from

    their demographics that is definitely

    something where we want to reach but

    it's really about the process it's

    really about like looking at where these

    gaps exist and what are we doing that is

    causing these Equity gaps where are the

    problems because there's always going to

    be an equity Gap there's never going to

    be complete so it is always this process

    of looking at the data analyzing where

    we are and figuring out where we want to

    go a quick short story so one day when I

    was in high school I was speaking to my

    band director and was like oh what'd you

    do this weekend he's like oh I did some

    renovation work around the house and it

    was like oh that must be have been

    pretty boring and he's like oh no

    actually I really enjoy it because I'm

    able to see the results instantaneously

    when I throw the paint on the wall I can

    see the result and then it's done and

    what he said is it differs significantly

    from teaching band where it sometimes

    takes several years before the thing

    that you are working on all of a sudden

    makes an improvement like over time when

    it comes to Performance and whatnot and

    so he actually really liked working on

    those little things because it can be

    difficult to see how your efforts are

    going to pay off way down the road now

    the same thing can happen with Equity

    work in terms of like you can't see this

    like instantaneous and we're done brush

    it off just like through the paint on

    the wall and you never have to come back

    to it well when it comes to the equity

    work though it can be really draining

    because there is not that resolution and

    it just kind of keeps going so

    long-winded way of getting to this

    question which is how do you prevent

    yourself from like burning out when

    there's so many demands just on being an

    educator and a researcher and then like

    especially with working on Equity work

    which is can be draining at times

    because it does never end I do think

    there's little wind

    I can focus on

    [Music]

    School leader it could be it could just

    be you know one an uptick on one data

    point or something you really have to

    celebrate the tiny wins because they're

    tiny and they will be Tiny But like they

    are big for some kids somewhere so those

    are the things that you really have to

    focus on in addition like I make sure to

    work out like every day and I try to

    work out as hard as possible to get all

    the stress and anxiety out I meditate I

    play with my kids I try to go on Hikes

    it is draining work you know one of the

    concerns I have is like what I see

    happening to school leaders is that they

    feel like they don't have agency that

    you know they're just a cog in the

    machine kind of thing sometimes because

    they are part of a system that can

    perpetuate oppression and they sort of

    don't feel like they have the ability to

    make changes that is what happens when

    you focus on the bigger picture only and

    like oh my God we're not making big

    gains but you know I specifically

    remember like this one kid in my maker

    space saying like oh I know I want to go

    to college and I know I want to do

    computer science now like that kid was

    maybe 15 years ago but I still remember

    him because I'm like that was a

    difference for that one kid that was

    like that one kid like you have to find

    your meaning and for me that was like

    meaning and it's not like because I feel

    like all kids should major in computer

    science and go to college it's more that

    I helped that kid find his path and you

    know he's a Latino he was somebody who

    wasn't one of the represented students

    so really focusing on you know those

    tiny little wins are the only way that I

    think we're gonna survive doing this

    Equity work constantly yeah I appreciate

    that I am privileged in that like the

    content that I create that's really

    available like whether there's the

    lesson plans of boot up or this podcast

    or whatever like it can spread to a lot

    of people and have potential impact but

    I don't see that impact because I'm not

    in the classroom and I don't hear

    teachers respond it wasn't until csta

    National this summer where like people

    were like hey I recognize your voice

    like I listen to your podcast I'm like

    whoa people listen like

    I just I don't know because it doesn't

    feel like I get that immediate responses

    like when I worked in the classroom when

    I was working one-on-one with a kid you

    could see that like engagement and

    whatnot so it's a different kind of yeah

    I feel bad Jared like I was in your

    podcast and I don't ever like I think

    maybe once and it was because it was a

    paper that like we had written but like

    I mean they're all so good so I'll be

    sure to remember to like call you out on

    Twitter so you get that little win that

    little bit of endorphin somebody

    listened

    nobody listened yeah it's I don't know

    it's been a weird like this last year I

    started like sharing gaming and drumming

    stuff like on my YouTube channel and

    whatnot that has been weird as well

    because like I'm at almost a million

    views now and it's like it doesn't feel

    like there's hundreds of thousands of

    people who have engaged with my content

    but there has been which is neat I mean

    can I ask you a question yeah so that is

    something I want to learn more from you

    about so I talked about the ways that

    like you know I work out I hike you know

    I have my art background but it has been

    so hard for me to really get back into

    that like my life has really been just

    really like computer science work and

    family and I've just been so impressed

    with how you do the drumming the gaming

    the Cs educations like stuff and you

    still read research how do you do that

    well part of it is not having children

    so that makes it so I have a lot more

    time than my peers sure that's like a

    huge like one of the number one things

    my wife is also a very busy type a

    individual and I mean that in the best

    way possible so because we're both so

    busy like we do schedule in time for

    each other and then outside of that I

    schedule in I'm planning on gaming on

    like Monday Wednesday and Saturday

    evenings with with one of my friends

    who's across the country like I try and

    make sure I do that and like with the

    music side of things it's the same thing

    like on Saturdays and Sundays I try and

    stream in the morning and it holds me

    accountable because now I'm going to

    practice publicly like it's making it so

    that I am almost being like forced to do

    that like with the podcast when I do the

    unpacking scholarship episodes one of

    the reasons why I do that is because if

    I don't have a guest lined up cool I can

    just release an episode on my own it's

    not reliant on anyone don't have to put

    pressure Etc but the other reason why is

    it forces me to stay on top of like

    Recent research and to just keep

    learning and reading because otherwise

    I'll find something else to do because

    there's always a billion things to do

    but when it comes down to it like one of

    the things that I really learned in the

    last two years in particular like during

    covet is I need to have a clear

    separation between what I do in my 40

    hour work week and what I do in my

    leisure and so I'm trying to have very

    distinct start and end points for that

    and so like in the mornings like I'll do

    workout out like you were saying but

    then like I'd say I start at eight

    o'clock working eight hour a day I will

    then do cardio at the end of the day to

    kind of put like a cap on that and say

    now I'm done for the day now I'm gonna

    focus on doing other stuff like video

    editing for the gaming content or like

    playing video games or hanging out with

    my wife or whatever so having that

    separation has helped because I am the

    kind of person who won't stop working

    I'm technically even though it's like

    Leisure I'm working on gaming and

    drumming stuff and putting out social

    media content like a lot but I

    previously would only do computer

    science stuff non-stop but because now

    I'm doing multiple things it keeps it

    fresh so when I come back to the Cs

    stuff like I'm like oh this is something

    different and new that I wasn't doing on

    the weekend and then when it's on the

    weekend or the week night I'm like oh

    now I get to work on this other thing

    some of the challenges like now I love

    working from home but I do think it's

    making it challenging for me to like

    make hard stops as to when work time is

    and when not work

    yeah one of the things that I also did

    was I actually had the office in a

    separate location from my leisure and so

    when I'd go into that office this is

    privilege of having the space for that

    then I was work mode and when I exited

    the office I would shut the door and I'm

    done for the day or the weekend or

    whatever and I would not focus on that

    now I've kind of put myself into a

    little bit of a pickle and that like

    there's two drum sets in here and a

    marimba and like this is where I like I

    make music and have fun this is also

    where I game but it's also where I work

    so I try and like do my best to make

    sure that like I am still mentally

    separating those and I'm not thinking

    about work outside of it and I'm not

    thinking about like drumming and gaming

    when I'm working Etc but sometimes

    easier said than done oh for sure for

    sure I don't know if I can do that but I

    can try yeah I mean like you mentioned

    though with working out but also the

    meditation side of things like that has

    helped to try and refocus thoughts

    whether it's like I'm gonna do a

    gratitude meditation so for 20 minutes

    I'm just going to focus on things I'm

    grateful for or or focus on an object

    like my dog and just like petting her or

    just like even just sitting outside and

    looking at the birds who are like eating

    from the bird feeder like that kind of

    attention training almost has been

    really helpful for being able to focus

    my mind on work or Focus my mind on

    Leisure and be intentional in that

    moment yeah I wonder I mean I am such an

    Ave

    later I wonder what a mess I would be

    without it like has this like because

    it's I feel like my mind is chaos like

    with it so maybe I don't know it

    probably has helped me in ways that I

    don't see yeah I mean I didn't do any of

    it until I went to a therapist because I

    was like ours on the edge of suicidality

    and in like high school and undergrad I

    was suicidal for the majority of that

    period of time and when I went to a

    therapist she had me start doing yoga

    and I did it an hour in the morning an

    hour in the evening and I did that every

    single day for weeks and like just to

    feel the change in my body and whatnot

    like I know what the before and the

    after is like and so I am I try to be

    very intentional about working out about

    getting my sleep about eating healthy

    about meditating because I know where it

    will take me when I don't do that kind

    of stuff and so I'm extremely grateful

    even though like you're saying like even

    though I do all these things like I

    still get stressed out Etc but I know

    I'd be in a much worse place if I didn't

    do all these things yeah totally no it's

    it's so important for me to do every day

    and it's a really it's not a good day

    when I don't do those things yep for

    sure yeah I'm the same way I guess kind

    of like building off of that how do you

    practice or iterate on your own

    abilities like whether it's in research

    as an educator or even just in Leisure

    I'm a bit of a practice nerd so that's

    why I ask what do you mean you're a

    practice nerd like I took a Kinesiology

    sports psychology class because I'm

    interested in like the art of like

    Improvement whether it's

    self-improvement or practicing and so

    I'm like constantly trying to figure out

    ways to refine either my drumming or my

    gaming or even my work and like how to

    iterate on that I mean in terms of my

    work I work closely with really

    experienced people Julie Jean and Jane

    looking at the way that they were I've

    learned a lot from them the interaction

    with my partners that are in county

    offices has also done that you know this

    is hearkening back to my like love of

    school and the school structure I need

    to take classes once in a while like

    I've recently took the Nikki

    Washington's cultural competence and

    Computing course I've taken UT Austin's

    on Equity minded computer science

    implementation one way I have gotten

    myself to do my art is when I take art

    classes so like because it exposes me it

    makes me read stuff it makes me listen

    to things and it makes me really reflect

    on my own practice in a way that I

    really struggle to do on my own yeah

    that accountability yeah it's the

    accountability yeah my wife started

    seeing a personal trainer like in like a

    group context kind of thing and like

    that for her has been like the to hold

    her accountable to make sure she's

    consistent with it and like same thing

    for me when I would go to classes like

    you're saying it just it makes it so

    much easier to stay on track basically

    like I'm in total dork for like the apps

    that track stuff like I do Peloton and

    like I you know it totally works for me

    where I'm you know this is how many

    minutes I've worked out this year and I

    want to make sure I meet meet this

    amount of minutes by the end of the year

    and that also really helps is just I

    hate to be this like cheesy but the

    smart goals really do help in making me

    achieve things yeah I mean I I do

    morning and evening Reflections and I

    like track quantitative and qualitative

    data and like Mark here's my level of

    anxiety right now and like here's how

    much sleep I got and like trying to do I

    do quarterly Reflections where I go back

    and review that data and I've done it

    now for almost three years I did it like

    the other weekend and when I was

    watching all the videos the other

    weekend I was like man I've like

    improved like 20 on this or like Etc

    like it's really cool to see that and I

    wouldn't have known that if like it was

    probably a month ago I met my therapist

    I was like yeah I feel like I haven't

    been like doing great but then when I

    actually looked at the data and I'm like

    oh wait this is like way better than it

    was two years ago it's interesting yeah

    no I love that you do that that's so

    awesome and you know I really should

    incorporate like evening meditation too

    because I only do morning but it's nerd

    stuff but it really does help me be

    accountable in ways just that not doing

    it would not do yeah I don't know it's a

    bit of an extreme but it works for me

    and I'm happier as a result

    it's a bit of an extreme but I love I

    love that it works for you yeah there's

    a podcast and a book called 10 happier

    and it talks about meditations by Dan

    Harris which is not to be confused with

    Sam Harris who also does meditation

    stuff and a bunch of other things but

    yeah if I can get 10 happier during this

    like morning and evening reflection sure

    I'll do it 10 is a big percent like

    that's a lot of percent yeah I'll take

    it

    I'm curious like if we think of a field

    as a whole there are a lot of issues in

    education going on I'm curious what's

    something that you feel like is holding

    back the field or Educators and then if

    you could wave a magic wand what would

    you do to kind of fix that it's a little

    bit of what I talked about before the

    Educators feel like they have a lack of

    agency at the moment and there's a lot

    of burnout yeah and it's totally

    understandable this stuff is going on

    because there is so much that is out of

    their control and the political

    environment has made the day-to-day life

    of Educators at times a bit of a

    Minefield so like it's you know the

    magic wand I think it this does go back

    to what I was talking about before is

    like the coming together it sounds

    strange but I do think the coming

    together and the defining of terms like

    the coming together and talking about

    like you know what do you mean when

    you're saying you want the best for your

    your kid having that conversation with

    school leaders and teachers and parents

    and like really I think there's just

    such a lack of dialogue that is leading

    to this real Chasm that you know

    Educators just they aren't appreciated

    for the work that they do and I think if

    people understood what their day-to-day

    was like there would be way more

    understanding in terms of just

    recognizing how difficult their job is

    and what they're doing I think that

    people understanding the decisions that

    administrators have to make and you know

    for folks to understand like what

    parents go through like and what their

    lives at home are like and the different

    struggles that they're experiencing

    we're not in community and I think these

    dialogues are what could really help in

    terms of really making people feel that

    we're in this together and I think that

    would like in some ways help with the

    burnout just because I think we would

    lend a lot more grace to people and I

    would also hope that the dialogue would

    also kind of change this idea of

    hierarchy that exists within educational

    structures that makes decision making

    come more from just more of a

    community-based kind of decision making

    but one that hears the voices of those

    who you don't normally hear from not

    just the loudest ones so in May of 2020

    there was this moment where I felt like

    there was actually going to be a shift

    in discourse around Educators because I

    started seeing parents on social media

    be like I get it my kid is difficult to

    work with you're right they are really

    hard to teach this is because like

    parents were having to teach their kids

    in like April May of 2020. and then over

    the summer it shifted back to teachers

    are babysitters why aren't you back in

    classrooms Etc your health is not as

    important as me being able to go to work

    and it it was really kind of

    disheartening to see that like profound

    shift happen for the positive and then

    just immediately get probably worse than

    it was in terms of how Society in

    general kind of viewed and talked about

    Educators and and their role or

    importance I mean I think that it's a

    reflection on the lack of social safety

    net we have in place for anyone whether

    that be a parent or it be a teacher we

    want to blame somebody when in general

    it's the system but we want to be able

    to point our finger at a thing at a

    person and say you know it is your fault

    that I am going through this it's a lot

    easier than dismantling A system that is

    put in place and by a system like

    capitalism like you're not going to

    dismantle capitalism so it's a lot

    easier to say this is my kids teacher's

    fault they aren't doing what they're

    supposed to do and I think this has been

    it's no surprise that like the last

    three years have been just really

    challenging for everyone and I think

    that's why you know politics have gotten

    the way it has why what you're talking

    about in terms of you know this dialogue

    around teachers it's a lot of this

    wanting to find you know a tangible

    thing that we can blame when it's the

    system in which we exist and you know

    we're the fish in the water it's really

    hard for us to see outside of that yeah

    that's a really interesting point it's

    kind of like a through line in the

    conversation like parents students feel

    a lack of agency when it comes to the

    educational system but then your point

    about administrators feeling that which

    is fascinating because like teachers be

    the administrators is like the people

    with all the power but then the admin

    are like I have no power I have no

    agency but then like even higher up like

    politicians are like but I want to get

    things done but I can't because of a b

    and c like it just seems like a profound

    lack of agency or all around yeah we all

    kind of feel like our hands are tied in

    some way right A lot of it I would argue

    Doug comes back to capitalism is why our

    hands are tied in lots of ways it's a

    system that really limits the ways that

    we can move because we are constrained

    by generating wealth for a small section

    of the population yeah Henry Jude what

    do you know there's education is not a

    social good it's all about pleasing the

    stakeholders come on or the shareholders

    totally it that's totally it

    unfortunately

    yeah no and I think you know in the way

    that we talk about it now like that is

    the subtext to a lot of our

    conversations of education is all around

    that yeah well I mean I think computer

    science as a whole in the K-12 like

    really can be borderline problematic

    when it comes to that like it's so I

    don't know in bed with corporate culture

    and like fulfilling corporate needs like

    the most common argument for well why

    should we have K-12 CS well there's all

    these open jobs and it's like okay well

    that's kind of a problem if you feel

    that that's the only need for a computer

    science at this point right it's such a

    tricky thing and I mean as someone who

    you know full disclosure has taken money

    from these large tech companies in order

    to do my research it is such a

    complicating factor in what we do and I

    think we as a CS education Community

    have to really think about what our

    purpose is when we're doing this you

    know it is also when we were talking

    about Equity because we can say like

    look it's these jobs and they're

    high-paying jobs and it's black and

    brown students low-income students rural

    students can have access to these kinds

    of jobs and they would have high income

    potential and change the trajectory of

    their financial lives so it's very easy

    for us to get tracked into that I think

    what's important is for us to go back to

    that idea of like how pervasive

    technology has become and think about it

    Beyond just jobs but really like wait

    this is how I communicate with people is

    it letting me communicate with them in a

    way that is healthy for me and for my

    family this is how I go shopping is this

    really the way that I really want to be

    thinking about purchasing goods and

    stuff I just went back to capitalism see

    how like inside and is but like it's now

    really impact democracy and the way that

    democracy worked right so I think that

    is the way that we really have to think

    of Cs education beyond the sphere of

    what happens on the economic plane and

    really how it's impacting us on the

    social plan on the communal plane yeah

    and there's the layers of impact too so

    your point about like if somebody's in a

    low socioeconomic status and they're

    able to get CS education and like

    potentially bump up into a Higher One

    like almost immediately upon graduation

    that's fantastic if I reflect on the

    conversation that I had with Kimberly

    Scott and like a paper that she wrote

    with another author who's escaping me

    where they talk about how like Cs and

    Tech culture is almost a form of

    sharecropping and so like how yeah you

    get into a high-paying job that is going

    to be abusive to you then it's like well

    is it really that much of an improvement

    and so it's like it's important to look

    at those different layers and like that

    level of impact that it has in each of

    those layers yeah and I think like Kamal

    Bob has talked about it as like

    technology ghettos and like what jobs

    are these black and Indigenous students

    getting are they getting you know just

    these low-level programming jobs that

    yes provide them with money but then

    like you said is it like a new form of

    sharecropping that like you know it's

    this is white male at the top that is

    leading the direction of where this

    programming is going curious do you have

    anything that you're currently working

    on that you could use some help with

    like a listener might be able to assist

    with it's nothing I think anyone can

    help me with

    okay and this is a problem that Julie

    and I have been like talking about since

    forever but the data that we have is so

    limiting that we really don't know not

    just who is taking computer science but

    who is teaching computer science and

    what kind of education have they had

    like how have they trained to be a

    computer science teacher I mean if

    someone listening to this can't solve

    that problem they should definitely

    contact me but you know we're just not

    collecting that data and I do think

    that's going to be incredibly useful to

    us in understanding who is getting the

    computer science education and what kind

    of education in computer science are

    they getting and really understanding

    how teachers are understanding what

    computer science is what computational

    thinking is and how they Implement that

    in the classroom we have a lot of

    qualitative small scale studies but

    there's just no large set of data that

    can really tell us for California

    Statewide or even nationally like what

    that landscape looks like yeah I mean

    that would be interesting my guess is

    most teachers are in service already and

    are starting to learn CS just based off

    of what I'm seeing with boot up but it

    would be really interesting to do like a

    survey get open-ended responses but then

    like use Corpus Linguistics techniques

    to actually look at what are the

    patterns of discourse across like the

    different types of backgrounds and see

    like what emerges from that that would

    be a fascinating study to take a look at

    it would be really really cool and

    Incredibly useful and probably super

    expensive but

    yeah such as research

    such as research do you have any

    questions for myself for the field my

    big question for you is like how do you

    do all this stuff as someone from the

    outside being like Oh my God like how

    does Drake get all that done because you

    know I really want to like I said engage

    in other parts of you know my art and

    stuff like that but it has been such a

    challenge but I think I can draw clearer

    boundaries maybe than I have been doing

    so yeah and find ways to combine things

    when possible like I said like not

    having kids makes so I have a lot more

    time but this morning I did upper body

    workout and I was in this room doing the

    upper body workout while I was reviewing

    a stream that I did previously at three

    times speed and I would walk over to my

    keyboard and press M on it to put a

    marker into Premiere so that way I would

    know oh this is a clip that I want to

    use and then I'd go back to working out

    and so I was able to get through like

    three hours worth of content in my

    hour-long workout and so it was

    combining the two things into one so

    that is another way that I will do that

    as well like when I I'm sharing social

    media posts like for like the upcoming

    week which I usually do like on Tuesday

    evenings I'm reviewing videos on one

    screen while I'm like just dragging and

    dropping the files into the like the

    social media scheduler so I'm doing two

    things at once it doesn't take any like

    thought to like oh I'm just assigning it

    into this and then dragging into this

    like and I can review stuff while I'm

    doing that that makes it so that I have

    more time to do the edits and things

    like that so like finding combinations

    certainly makes my life so that I can

    get more done in the same amount of time

    if I had like done it separately if that

    makes sense I mean I don't think I could

    work out and do anything at the same

    time that's amazing to me I had done

    this and it's been successful I should

    do more of it which is drawing with my

    kids and at the same time like we're all

    drawing and I get to practice my art at

    the same time so you know that's a

    really good example of something I

    should maybe practice more of is yeah

    this is one of the things I'm grateful

    to you for is doing these podcasts

    around papers because I don't have time

    to read papers anymore but like more

    people should do the Jared O'Leary so I

    can listen to a paper while I'm like

    doing the dishes or folding laundry

    honestly I see that as a future for a

    lot of Scholars and like a really

    potentially lucrative one Andrew

    huberman is a neuroscientist at Stanford

    and so like he has this full

    professorship of responsibilities but

    outside of that he does a podcast and I

    think it's called The heberman Lab

    podcast and he's got over a million Subs

    on YouTube for that podcast so like he's

    potentially making six-figure kind of

    income just doing that podcast where he

    basically will either an interview I

    guess like I do or he will like

    synthesize like do a meta review of

    here's what the scholarship says about

    sleep or here's what the scholarship

    says about like digestive track Etc and

    like having listened to it I'm like oh

    this is what I've been doing except like

    I tend to focus on like one paper per

    episode and like he'll do multiple poll

    within a particular theme whereas I'll

    do it like released over multiple weeks

    and so like I honestly see more the this

    style of communication becoming more

    popular down the road because I had a

    chapter that I wrote for like an Oxford

    or ratlage handbook and from when I

    submitted the first draft to when I

    actually got a like a book in hand it

    was three years whereas like if I record

    a podcast episode today I can release it

    this afternoon like it's so much easier

    to have that like really quick kind of

    response to things that like a

    traditional publishing route it just

    doesn't that's a really good point I

    mean I look forward to these days like

    where it would be that fast when it is

    research I am reading you know it's two

    years after the fact a lot of times like

    you're like you said three years after

    the back and like so much other research

    has happened since then yeah I look

    forward to that time and it's just so

    much easier to consume than reading a

    paper at least for people like me who

    are busy parents yeah no I hear you I'm

    a huge fan of cast I see this being a

    good future direction we just have to

    figure out how to do it in a way that is

    helpful and so I've been attempting to

    do that you've been doing great at it I

    really appreciate it and thanks so much

    for the work that you do because it is

    helpful for folks like me who cannot sit

    down and read the paper yeah I

    appreciate that was there anything you

    wish that I I know it was a while ago

    but the paper that I did an episode on

    that you helped write like was there

    anything you're like oh I wish Jared

    would have talked about this more or

    this less this paper is a lot of the

    work that we've done around school

    administrators in implementation issues

    in terms of like Equitable Computer

    Science Education one of the things you

    said was maybe it's not what we're

    striving for that's the problem but how

    we're doing it so like the problem not

    being and this goes back to our

    conversation before like this kind of

    outcomes driven approach to equity and

    education you know it's not that

    outcomes aren't important like they're

    obviously they're what give us Direction

    but the process in which we engage in

    this work is just as if not more

    important that you have to ensure that

    Equity like it's not just part of like

    what you're aiming towards but that when

    we're doing this work with

    administrators that administrators don't

    feel like you know there's some sort of

    distinction between researchers and

    themselves or that when we're doing work

    with parents and community that there is

    again that they feel like there's some

    sort of hierarchy between the researcher

    or the administrator and the parent a

    lot of this work is US understanding

    like doing the work the internal the

    difficult internal work we have to do

    the work of dialogue which is also

    really difficult so it's not just this

    like oh now we've got the right

    percentages of kids taking computer

    science that that path on which we get

    there is just as important if not more

    in building up what it means to do

    Equitable Computer Science Education it

    is US walking the walk that we're

    talking about doing yeah and I think

    beginning that dialogue with like shared

    definitions and conversations and

    whatnot I think that really helps set

    the tone in a conversational way rather

    than an attacking like you're doing

    things not my way you need to do things

    my way yeah absolutely absolutely and

    there is always that kind of divide

    between the researcher and the

    practitioner the parents and the

    practitioner like those are always going

    to be in place because of the roles that

    each takes on but it is through dialogue

    that I think we can make those

    differences a little bit smaller yeah

    because like especially when it comes to

    Echo to work totally on board but like

    how we say it and when we say it can

    have a huge impact on whether or not

    somebody will choose to engage with us

    absolutely and this is something I'm

    going learning like I'm not going to

    pretend like I'm an expert on this like

    this is something I am learning every

    day and back to your question about like

    how do you you know practice on this

    stuff I am not a fan of uncomfortable

    conversations I really hate conflict so

    Equity work is really challenging for me

    because of it because I do struggle in

    those kinds of conversations but it is

    like constant practice and it's

    stretching yourself a little bit beyond

    what your comfort zone is in order to

    really get meaningful dialogue with

    someone else are there any questions

    that I haven't asked that you want to

    talk about you asked me like how is your

    work on Equity centered teaching and

    learning informed your understanding of

    computational thinking in schools I

    think if we overlap these ideas of

    equity center teaching with

    computational thinking I'm hoping my

    intention is that this ethos that exists

    at least in Silicon Valley of like move

    fast and break things that we can kind

    of shift that to like let's move slowly

    and like more thoughtfully and iterate

    constantly I mean that's not catchy like

    move fast and break things but like move

    slowly thoughtfully and iterate

    constantly is not going to become a

    catchphrase but I do think like really

    thinking about computational thinking

    with this Equity lens and we start doing

    that in schools is really going to shift

    how we develop digital Tools in thinking

    like what am I making for whom am I

    making it who does it benefit who does

    it harm yeah it's not as catchy but

    maybe if we turn it into a song no I'm

    working on it it let's Workshop it let's

    Workshop it it's yeah yeah make it into

    a little Tick Tock Musical and I'll do a

    dance to it and yeah yeah it helps the

    algorithm

    where might people go to connect with

    you in the organizations you work with

    I'm on Twitter at

    RH

    I'm LinkedIn at rha-d-a-d you should

    check out the Cs Equity project and you

    should check out CS for CA Computer

    Science for California got a lot of

    resources that are not just for

    Californians at cs4ca.org or at CS for

    CA on Twitter and with that that

    concludes this week's episode of the

    cska podcast friendly reminder you can

    find links to many of the resources that

    we mentioned as well as other related

    podcasts in the show notes at

    jarrodolary.com but I really hope you

    enjoyed this episode if you did please

    consider sharing with somebody else or

    leaving a rating or review on whatever

    app that you're listening to this on

    stay tuned next week for another episode

    until then I hope you're all staying

    safe and are having a wonderful week

Guest Bio

Roxana Hadad, PhD is Associate Director of the Computer Science Equity Project at UCLA Center X. She is the project director for Seasons of CS, a statewide CSforCA initiative to bring equity-minded computer science professional learning to educators in every region of California. She also manages SCALE-CA, a research-practice partnership focused on scaling teacher professional development, building the capacity of education leaders for local implementation, and contributing to the research base on expanding equity-minded computer science teaching and learning opportunities for California. Previously, she was the Director of Math, Science, and Technology at the Center for College Access and Success (CCAS) at Northeastern Illinois University in Chicago. At CCAS, she developed and promoted STEM-focused opportunities for underrepresented Chicago Public School students and was PI on NSF-funded research examining formative assessment for computational thinking and cultural responsiveness in makerspaces. Roxana received her doctorate in Educational Psychology from the University of Illinois at Chicago, her master’s degree from the Interactive Telecommunications Project at the Tisch School of the Arts at New York University, and her bachelor’s degree from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Because of the opportunities computing has provided Roxana as a Latina and an artist, she is committed to ensuring more students have access to quality computing education

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