Decolonizing Education through SEL and PBL with Matinga Ragatz

In this interview with Matinga Ragatz, we discuss Matinga’s journey into education, creating environments where kids can learn through struggle, the importance of social and emotional learning (SEL), how schools promote individualism and exceptionalism, the intersections of project-based learning and SEL, decolonizing education, the importance of shared values in education, and so much more.

Welcome back to another episode of the
csk8 podcast my name is Jared O'Leary
each week of this podcast is either a
solo episode where I unpack some
scholarship in relation to Computer
Science Education or an interview with a
guest or multiple guests in this week's
episode I'm interviewing matinga regetts
we discuss matinga's journey into
education trading environments where
kids can learn through struggle
importance of social and emotional
learning SEL all schools promote
individualism and exceptionalism the
intersections of project-based learning
and SEL decolonizing education the
importance of shared values in education
and so much more as always you can find
show notes at gerardleary.com or by
clicking the link in the app that you're
listening to the song you'll notice
there that this app is powered by boot
up which is the non-profit that I work
for where I create 100 free Elementary
coding curriculum and we provide paid
professional development so check out
boot.pd.org if you're interested in
either of those and check out
jaredolear.com which has hundreds if not
thousands of resources for CS Educators
as well as a bunch of drumming and
gaming content but with all that being
said we will now begin with an
introduction by matinga hello my name is
matinga I'm an instructional education
specialist I am a vintage educator and
one of my loves and one of my passion is
to really change the way education is
being imparted or delivered to students
and really changed the way students see
themselves so I come from a long line of
techies and Educators and one of my
goals today is to share my work with you
and to share my passion as well it's
interesting so how did you get into the
field of Education it sounds like you
might have some relatives who have been
in it most likely my mother was an
educator in fact my mother was the first
person in her country and you'll hear my
world accent I am from Central West
Africa and so she was the first woman to
complete a college degree and she became
a teacher and that kind of coded my life
but I did not want to be a teacher I
really didn't then education for me was
a pothole on the road so I basically
fell telling it I was on my way to law
school you know when you're from a West
African tradition your parents kind of
dictate where you go and where you land
and I was coming to the United States to
do an international law career but then
you come to the United States and you
realize people don't listen to their
parents here it's an option I'm cheating
all right and so I was like wow that's
the thing and it was very simple I you
know on my way to law school both my
husband and I wanted to go to grad
school he wanted to do his PhD I wanted
to go law school but then he got a
chance to go first because he got
accepted first and I'm like hey you know
I'll do something easy like you know go
become the teacher and first of all it
wasn't that easy number two number one
and number two was that I found that I
was good at it so I slowly but surely
start forgetting my law Journey which I
wasn't very passionate about after a
bunch of internships and things like
that I wasn't very passionate about it
so that's how I ended up in education
yeah what subjects did you teach I was a
social studies and World Language
teacher so social studies I taught
anything from government U.S government
Civics my favorite was Global Studies of
course world history and I taught
Spanish that's interesting it would be
really neat to work with an educator in
like government in particular talking
about social studies and government who
had a perspective outside of the us all
the teachers that I could think of they
were born and raised in the U.S and so
they didn't have perspectives beyond
that you know that sprinkled some spice
in my Global studies class
the things that we got up to and again
my own way of teaching and learning also
had a lot to do with that but my Global
Studies was definitely multi-perspective
I have an international background my
parents were diplomats and so we
traveled they had a assignment in
different countries every few years and
so I traveled and so whether it's East
Asia whether it was Africa whether it's
Latin America so I brought that to my
classroom yeah multi-perspectalism
really resonates with me I've talked
about it quite a bit on this podcast how
it informed my own approach to teaching
to research Etc like it's really
important for like people to read
outside of the field to get perspectives
beyond what they are typically hearing
within like dominant discoursing
whatever subject area they're in 100 and
you know the answer is in that
intersection because we don't have the
answer they don't have the answer
somewhere in the middle there is and so
this is where I think innovators come in
where I saw something in Japan I am
looking at something in America going
wow can we just kind of marry those two
together and also boom there's an
innovation does that make sense yeah
definitely I'm curious about like
catalysts or impact stories so can you
tell me a story about like an experience
in education that has had an impact on
you or resonated with you oh it's not so
much a story as it is an
autobiographical confession yeah I was a
terrible student I was a terrible
student I struggled through school
insanely dyslexic today I would have
been probably diagnosed ADHD I was quote
the creative child all right and I
struggled through school past because I
had an African mother and there was no
other option but I struggled hated
school but here's the thing I was a
terrible student but I knew I was a
really good learner and so for me I
always felt like listen because of my
dyslexia I can't do air math so if you
say what's three times twelve I don't
know in fact I'm gonna duck out of the
way of that air math but if you give me
a pencil I can probably out Matthew
right and so I always felt as a learner
that man if they would only just let me
show them how I understand what they're
trying to tell me rather than trying to
tell me how to tell them how I
understand it that was the always
struggles like yeah let me just show you
what I know and I never had the
opportunity to show people what I knew
until College that's when I became
interested in my own learning and
understood that there was nothing wrong
with my brain it was just the way that I
was being taught yeah of course that
just changed everything for me so I just
dedicated the career to created
environments and conditions where kids
like me could find a way to show what
they know without the teacher telling
them all the time this is very much so a
generalization so it doesn't apply to
every use case but I've found in general
that some of the best teachers are the
ones who struggled the most with
learning that subject area because they
know what it's like to work through it
and how to do it and some of the worst
teachers I've had are the ones who just
like resonated for them immediately they
got it and they didn't have to work
through that struggle and so therefore
they couldn't really understand and
relate to the students who were
struggling and figure out how to help
them out 100 and this is you know one of
the highlights of social emotional
learning right it's just really
providing in an environment where the
student can go through the struggle
whatever struggle it is rather than
somebody just kind of guiding you and
you just following because you're a good
follower then you become a good student
because you're good at following
instruction rather than because you're a
good learner or you've really improved
as a human being and let's double click
on that so what is social emotional
learning and why would it be important
for educators social emotional learning
it's got a bad rap I think in the past
really took hold in education has become
this Kumbaya let's do yoga which is
fantastic and then in our book Mike and
I talk about you know there's like
different levels of social emotional
learning and so for us like level one is
that you know control your anger that
self-control but we really want to talk
about like the level three where it's
transformative there are competencies
that are going to change the way you see
yourself as a learner and so we
specifically are using the castle
competencies they don't necessarily have
a corner market on the social emotional
learning that framework really resonated
with us and basically our goal is to
ensure that students have good
self-awareness they have good
self-management skills social awareness
skills good relationship skills and
ultimately in order to have good and
responsible decisions to make good
responsible decisions so that's all for
us or at least the social emotional
competencies is not something that you
teach so much is something that you or
crumbs that you leave in the way so that
students can pick them up and make it
their own with the goal of one being
able to just become better more
productive for human beings rather than
just do a yoga pose or take time out I
did yoga yesterday so that definitely
resonates with my wife it's great you
know I love doing yoga and that's my
happy place sometimes but it's not all
of it right yeah my first therapist that
I went to this was over a decade ago
like had me do you yoga twice a day an
hour each and that coupled with some
like other things and talking through
issues like really helped me so much one
of the things that also I think really
resonates with me about SEL is it's not
just about so that you as an individual
can become better but so you can also
empathize with others and learn how to
communicate with people and that's
something that I feel is strongly
lacking in adults right now when it
comes to anything charged or political
like we need to be able to have a
discussion about stuff we might disagree
with strongly on 100 percent and my
focus when I design educational programs
is this idea that the self-awareness is
the center of a child's learning and you
want to spend as much time as you can in
that self-awareness place which is scary
to some right making a child aware of
their identity and how their identity
relates to Authority and how the
identity makes interact with the world
interact with authority interact with
their siblings interact with their
parents and so the most important thing
that you can do besides just teaching
your children to have like really you
know good physical hygiene is good
emotional hygiene yeah I mean we
understand how much more healthy we are
when we do the physical hygiene but we
do not ensure that our students have
that emotional hygiene which is you know
understand who you are and how you roll
interacts with the world and as a
teacher I can just see how you roll and
I can help you and teach you manage how
you roll does that make sense yeah
definitely so my wife is a therapist and
she works right now with kids who have
experienced extreme forms of trauma and
trying to help them develop coping
skills to be able to work through that
trauma rather than turning into
methamphetamine they can instead turn to
creative arts therapies to try and help
them process things and like from a
Buddhist perspective this is my own lens
like being able to sit with that pain
and be able to observe it and not have
it control you and whatnot I know it's
difficult like having those skills to be
able to be aware enough to understand
the pains that are negatively impacting
you and still be able to come out on top
without turning into a substances is key
yeah 100 it's not just the idea of
sitting quietly with an issue education
especially you can layer that because
it's not just sitting quietly with an
issue but really understanding how that
issue that you're having affects others
yeah right one of the things that in my
designs in my education designs in my
school in Tanzania for example we are
really changing the way that we approach
learning so some might call it
decolonizing the African education but
the idea that education is not for you
alone right in the colonial system or
the post-colonial system that we're now
practicing you are going to be
successful you are going to college you
are going to be blah blah it's all about
your journey and we're gonna trying to
change that to back to our ancestry
where it was very much about what you
can contribute to the community and we
really feel that having that
individualistic type of learning where
it's all about you and all about your a
and all about your paper really
contributes to a belligerent Society
because you become selfish and you're
always struggling to keep that what is
yours right rather than building a
community and people who build a
community and participate in building
the community do not destroy that
community and those are things that in
the African culture you can see in
cultures that are you know just
naturalistic this idea of preserving
Community is about preserving Natures
about the community preserving each
other's about the community everything
is about the community and the wealth of
the community and so we're introducing
social emotional learning and social
awareness not so that you can become a
better person yourself but so that you
can become a better Community member as
well yeah that is so interesting I
hadn't thought of how the schools and
the systems like the formalized
education is contributing to I would
think the exception as an individualism
that is pervasive in the US one of the
things that really bothered me with
covid was we focus so much on my rights
over helping other people just by
wearing a mask like a very simple act
that you can do to protect others and
thinking about the communities that you
live in but instead focusing on yourself
as an individual and that individual
dualism I think really negatively
impacted a lot of communities because a
lot of people died or got really sick
and have long-term effects because of
that individualism I hadn't thought
about how it relates to schools it is
very much something that we learn in
schools these normative cultural
exceptionalism and that's a very much of
Euro thinking where you know we have to
be exceptional and the only way to be
exceptional is so for example to raise
children and we are always worshiping at
their feet oh you're awesome you're
great here's a million pictures of you
but really what you're doing is you're
setting up this child for a life where
they don't get to experience
disappointment and pick themselves up
right and so it's so we're trying to
just kind of deconstruct that and get to
okay so what is it that kids need
especially kids who are furthest from
opportunity what do they need in order
for them to be able to compete with
their Western counterparts that's the
base of my research when it comes to
this school yeah can we elaborate on
what you have been doing in Tanzania and
malaba it's very exciting my school is
called Kia k i a Kia Learning House Kia
stands for Kilimanjaro international
airport it's our school is just a few
miles away from the Kilimanjaro airport
and a few miles away from the mountain
itself in that area is called Kia so
basically there we have a food science
project-based learning school and we
came up with the idea of Food Science
because when we were first looking at
the community trying to find property to
create a school the kids in this
community had obvious signs of
malnutrition not malnutrition because
they did not get enough to eat which was
also part of it but also because they
had like a mono diet always eating the
same thing so scabs in their head they
had signs and so when we talked to our
nutritionist friends we're like you know
there are some things we can do and so
we started this food science school so
that kids would learn how to you know
just kind of multiply their diet and
actually be sustainable our school we're
trying our hardest to become sustainable
because as we are seeing our own world
change because of climate change places
like Tanzania places like where kids
where people are really really poor
they're the first ones to feel it so we
are really proud when you go to
Instagram and you see our just beautiful
green vegetables and places where you
know it's very dry in places where
agriculture is not really a thing we are
among the Maasai masaya very much about
cattle farmers and not soil Farmers but
we are using permaculture and a lot of
the ancestral information and
intelligence and wisdom to create new
ways of using food as a resource and
we're teaching kids as young as five to
understand how to find food or how to
make your own food and not have to wait
until some organization comes and brings
a bag of rice or a bag of grain it's
interesting one of the things I like to
reflect on is like how different
teaching contexts and experiences that
I've had kind of inform the ones that
come after that whether it's like having
worked with kindergarten how that
informed my graduate teaching and then
how The Graduate teaching is informed
like working with like kindergarten
students Etc I'm curious like how have
these experiences and like the school
like in Tanzania informed your own
understanding of Education again it's a
collection of you know experiential
research as well my dissertation was
about how tech savvy teachers use the
smartphone for professional development
simply because I was using my smartphone
I still do this is how I do professional
Watling for my teachers at Tanzania we
just use WhatsApp and airpod and the
smartphone and how we were doing that
and it's just kind of that simple
activity where you take a tool that is
not necessarily used or you take an area
of the world that may or may not have
professional development opportunities
and when this tool you can completely
change the way this teacher thinks or
she can inform your learning herself
through this tool so I feel like what
what has changed my mind is how
education is a tool right it's a tool
that needs to change with the times it's
a tool that needs to change with the
environment you cannot serve the same
portion the same exact meal everywhere
you go which is what the colonial
education did in Africa where you know
this is what we're doing in Europe we're
just going to do it in your school and
we see that also in the United States
where people who write the curriculum
have no clue where their curriculum is
going to land and how it's going to
affect those communities yeah and it's
just mind-boggling that we're still
feeling like some lady in some suburb
sitting in her backyard writing
curriculum is doing the right thing for
a child living in the inner city
struggling with you know environmental
racism because the water that comes from
her sink is brown does that make sense
yes it definitely makes sense and so as
Educators especially because we don't
tend to come from where our students you
know the background of our students is
rarely the those of the teachers if you
look at the percentage of white female
teachers to other bipoc populations it's
heavily towards the normative culture so
how can one culture teach kids from
other cultures without necessarily
imparting or changing and so for
project-based learning it makes it
beautiful because now the students can
bring their own voice they bring their
own choice they bring their own culture
into a project and still manage to meet
those standards yes so I think it's like
teachers are white women and so like
that's obviously an issue when it comes
to that but then CS has an extra layer
of things to problematize in that some
of the curriculum that comes from CS
organizations are written by people who
have never taught a day in their life
their well-intentioned computer
scientists and so they've just kind of
come into it and I'm like well if this
worked for me so this I worked for all
these kids and so like School sign on to
that curriculum from or whatever and
they just don't have enough people who
actually know how to teach and design
lessons and so like the pedagogy is just
questionable at best oh and not just
that it's how does this fit in my
universe my mom's getting beat up by
some dude that she brought home how is
this fitting in my universe you know it
shakes the tree and a lot of kids drop
out of Cs even if they would have been
awesome at it because it does not
connect with them yep so you mentioned
PBO so how does project-based learning
kind of intersect with SEL beautifully
right because project-based learning
really creates that context for the
student to learn autonomously and for
your listeners who may not be familiar
with project-based learning you know we
take the standards we take the learning
goals right we then try to create a what
we would call quote a real world don't
call it real world around teenagers
because they're like what am I living in
a cartoon that kind of thing
Maybe
right but it allows for the students to
role play right what it would be to be
in the adult world so we start with some
kind of challenging question and then
from there we create these opportunities
for inquiry we ensure that in PDL that
those opportunities are authentic to the
students not necessarily something
they're going to learn for when they are
older my son calls it just in case
baggage so no what's relevant to the
student today what skills a student can
use to change their lives today
opportunities for the students to have a
voice and by having a voice meaning like
taking that voice and bringing it in
front of a real audience and not an
audience of their people who may or may
not be experts in that and opportunities
to reflect opportunities to have peer
review expert review community members
and partnership reviews and of course an
opportunity to share your work with
others project-based learning your work
doesn't end up lining the garbage can of
your your teacher at the end of the term
it ends up affecting someone somewhere I
mean honestly I think that's all we want
to do when we are here on Earth right is
just to shift the needle in some way
except now you get to do it when you're
six years old and start getting in the
habit that you are meaningful and
valuable member of some Society
somewhere right one of the questions
that I've asked a couple of guests in
the past and I'm still thinking through
it I'm curious what your thoughts are on
this but when might be project-based
learning a form of colonization like if
we are going with standards are the
standards a form of colonization in
terms of colonizing ways of knowing and
understanding and setting this is the
direction that you should head in as a
field or people who are studying that
and then how might we combat that
potential colonization through SEL or
pbl oh wow that's such a good question
and you know the standards are written
like the Bible you know they're gray
open to interpretation
right and a lot of the really I think
normative standards are not
project-based a bowl you cannot create
projects from them because they're very
very specific like there's literature
and all of these things like you know
like all of the little you just cannot
create a project around there and
project-based learning really just kind
of is a magnet for the standards they're
like analyzing data you know creating
beautiful surveys so that you can
interview people like collect that data
and code that data and actually be able
to interpret that does that make sense
and so a good Project based learning
experience for the students just kind of
goes towards enhancing skills rather
than content so and sometimes the
projects don't really look good or are
good at the end like their final outcome
is no good but the question is did the
student understand the process so we
really focus on the process and the
process especially when you braided with
social emotional learning is you know
take that child from childhood to to
adulthood in a way that they're going to
be productive and better yet in a way
that they're going to feel satiated with
life in no matter where they're standing
as opposed to this nonsense about
happiness
right I watched the Johnny Depp and
Amber Heard trial and I'm looking at
these people and they're beautiful
they're rich they're famous but they are
the most unhappy yeah people I've ever
heard of right and so we are trying to
get away from that weird American Hustle
about happiness and making it so that
you are satisfied with where you are in
life because you can see that you've
accomplished something rather than
because I'm telling you you're smart or
pretty which is a different way of just
kind of teaching the same thing the same
standard right but in a way that is more
humanistic towards the learner rather
than towards that test the hardest cell
with project-based learning and social
emotional learning because people always
say well I don't have the time I don't
have the time but it's kind of like
saying I don't have a time to change a
flat tire I'm just going to humbly
throughout take the time you know go to
the size of the road change that tire
call someone if you need to but then it
was going to smooth the row own and
sometimes I think that we are looking
right instead of looking left because
the most interesting thing is as when
the student sees themselves as a
differently as a person as a learner
they become interested in education they
become better test takers because they
really understand and they are really
invested but if you make it so that
you're just piling on content in the age
of information mind you just really
weaponizing the curriculum and you just
drop kids kids fall through the cracks
because you're not really addressing
what they need which is a sherpa through
life yeah so there are like many
different flavors of project-based
learning but the ones that I gravitate
towards are the ones that focus on the
process like you mentioned but that's
kind of a misunderstanding that I see
some people have with pbl is oh it's
called Project based so the focus is on
the outcome the product is not the point
of it it is the process the journey
through it so even when Mike was on the
podcast he talked about how some of the
failed projects were some of the best
projects because students learned a lot
through that process and it's life right
Sometimes some of the most harrowing
experiences are the ones that are the
ones that you learn the most and because
we're not seeking that happiness and
that's the heavy that weird outcome like
I'm doing this because it will make me
happy I'll be happy once I get that job
well when you get the job the job
happens to be you know you hate that job
it sucks now you're not happy I'll be
happy when I get married I'll have you
when I have a child there's this all
this weird you know when I get to the
end game that's when I'll be satiated
we're trying to turn that around and
saying okay what's valuable is your
experience what's valuable it's the
steps that you took to grow and that ABC
they're just letters because grade
should be for like meat and not for
human beings human children I heard with
some Olympic athletes they get the gold
and then afterwards they feel lost in
life like they don't have anything else
to accomplish and so like there's this
like postpartum depression that can come
with achieving that great thing after
they've done it they're like well now
what and I don't know about for you but
when I finished and defended my
dissertation I felt the same way and
that I was like what is the big thing
that is driving me and so like I turned
to Community Support like I helped out
with habitat through Humanity like
building houses and things like that but
does that resonate with you did you feel
something similar when you finished or
anything to anybody because I was just
kind of like I felt literally like I
moved Bones from one grave and put them
in the other great exercise but I really
did not teach much considering that
nobody's going to read research but one
of the things that I can come away from
it saying you know what I understand
research much different so now when I'm
teaching project learning and we're
talking about sending children into a
research mode or and having the students
have this scientific experience but like
I have a completely different view as
opposed to when I was a high school
teacher that before I did project-based
learning I was just assigning a report
right before I understood the tenants of
based learning so once I started kind of
aligning my experiences to what I would
like the students to experience and I'm
like oh my gosh I know what it means to
analyzing code data and that's not
analyzing and coding data you don't have
to look very far you don't have to go to
the Olympics I think we have a whole
generation of young kids who are
rudderless right now because we kind of
sold them this narrative that if only
you follow these steps you know your
life will be great well they followed by
steps they were valedictorian they went
to their college of their dreams yet now
they don't even want to work because
they're like What's it for what's it all
for you have a whole generation of kids
rudderless and that's on us we raise
them we can't say kids today because
when would you not use pbl or SEL so SEL
is a constant right you're the shirt by
the one that's been through life you
can't turn that off but there are some
things for example if I want to do a
safety course for my science laboratory
I can be like yeah just go in there and
figure it out and see what if it blows
up in your face don't do it again I
can't be doing that right and so on PBR
we do Peaks and valleys where Peak
you're doing a project the kids are
engaged and Valley maybe you're doing
something like refreshing some skills
that they wish they would have gotten we
are doing things like you know giving
the kids rest and me I'm gonna do some
lecturing now because it's just give it
to me it's my turn or just not learn but
it's like let me just guide your
learning for a little minute and then in
the next couple of weeks we go into
another project because the kids get
projected out right and so you want to
really have that Peaks and valleys and
understand the reason and also because
of the standards right and here in the
United States in Tanzania we don't have
those Hang-Ups but here in the United
States because of the standards there
are some standards and you have to touch
on that are not really project ready not
all standards are made equal yep and so
sometimes in that Valley I can just
collect those standards and go here are
some things that I'm going to teach you
that may or may not help you but I you
know you gotta dance little Hoops here
we go right and so my job as a teacher
is to try to tuck in those standards
wherever I can in projects but when I
can't and I just feel like you know what
I need to you need to have them I will
teach them that way but here's the most
magical part some of those standards
that do not fit anywhere else don't
matter
they don't matter their standards that
don't really coordinate or align with
the experiences that the students are
doing today but of course you can go to
the powers that be and go yeah I'm going
to throw out standards that I don't like
so when I Was preparing some questions
for today's conversation I was looking
at a video that kind of like summarized
your book with Mike and I'm curious one
of the sections was talking about like
the importance of students having a
shared understanding of values I'm
curious why it is important to teach
that because as Educators I think
there's a misunderstanding right so
right now especially in the past 10
years I'm gonna say there is this
teacher should in fact I would like to
create a t-shirt that says stop shooting
on me because you should things
politicians want to even touch with a
should do it right and so there is this
menu that has been growing about things
that teachers have to do unfortunately
the schools are taking it as a checklist
rather than a guide or some kind of like
road map we gotta do this let's do this
you got to do this and teachers now are
in this checklist mode and they've lost
the plot right and this is what creating
this dissatisfaction with teaching and
the stress because we're just managing
too many things
my Approach is a little bit different my
Approach I feel that in order for you to
for example be diverse or create
diversity in your class you can't learn
about every culture where the Mexicans
eat what are the Buddhists do what you
you can't do that you're not Google but
one of the things that you can do is
create these conditions right where
students have an opportunity to bring
their own backgrounds yeah in the book
we talk specifically about you know
listening to the students rather than
trying to Norm the students to the same
values for example in the book there's
an example about the inside voice which
is very much uh culture in elementary
use your inside voice use your inside
voice well if you come from a culture
where you speak a lot louder you
gesticulate you're in your face you're
interrupt because that's how you get
your point across you're not angry
you're just in the conversation and
you're passionate right the normative
culture tends to look at it as
disruptive rather than what that person
is saying so so there's an example in
the book there's a couple of kids who
are working and they're gesticulating
and they're loud and the teacher looks
around she hears them they're obviously
working on their project but they're
loud so she just says Hey I want you to
turn it down otherwise you're gonna have
to be working in the office you're
interrupting everybody and the question
is who is the interruption who's the
distraction who just broke the learning
because she could hear that the kids
were learning they were passionate they
were in their jam right and so then we
give them some strategies on how to just
kind of backtrack and don't try to
create an environment try to listen to
the kids and create the conditions for
the kids to be kids you chose to teach a
bunch of 10 year olds and 10 year olds
are just naturally but kittens they just
kind of Bounce everywhere and that's how
you create that diversity you create
that inclusion by really thinking about
the way they are almost like biomimicry
and adjusting your teaching environment
to that so in that example we gave a
correction or at least some strategies
on you know teaching the kids to just
having those conversations about how do
you concentrate best how do you work
best because we know as adults we can
work with noise I mean I've worked in a
city with you know in a coffee shop with
a very busy intersection behind me and I
can work with noise we know that we can
do that very productively yet somehow we
have this idea that it has to be
normative so loosen up and let diversity
come in in a way that you don't feel
like it's disruptive but it's in a way
that you can enhance the learning
environment yeah no it definitely
resonates I was fortunate I had
administrators who were okay with the
noise the chaos if we want to call it
that like it was kids who were excited
to learn and wanted to share with their
peers and so we would often have EDM
going through like the speakers in the
classroom just like listening to music
and like having a good time learning and
whatnot kids were talking they're
getting up moving around it was sit
where you want work in groups or work on
your own it's up to you my admin
supported that but in the district that
I was in previously unless is the music
room they wanted it to be quiet and like
everybody's sitting there is like that's
science we know now that it's bad
science right you know speaking of cats
you know cats are slick cats are so
coordinated and so athletic and so aloof
right but put that cat in a box and see
what you got going and so we've got a 10
year old whose natural stay is breaking
things open so that they can see what's
in it asking questions climbing running
running everywhere and the first thing
we want to do when we want to teach them
how to be a person is to take all of
that away and put them in a box with a
small little window if you're looking
and then wonder how he doesn't perform
at grade level whatever that means so we
understand that you know again talking
about the perspective of what social
emotional learning can do is to really
bring teachers back to ask themselves
what am I playing at and then how do I
teach them how do I teach them
considering how Wild they can be how do
I slowly but surely start teaching them
the steps to take all that energy and
make it into productive energy I guess
there's kind of an interesting bit of
irony in the backlash that has been
going on with CRT in classrooms critical
race theory is what is supposed to stand
for but it also shares the same with
culturally relevant cultural responsive
teachings so parents are kind of
conflating theories around law with like
Ladson Billings work Geneva Gay's work
Paris and elim's work etc and what is
interesting is their work if we were to
kind of summarize it is trying to pull
the cat out of the box and let the cat
be a cat and let kids explore who they
are as individuals and what the ironic
part is parents are like oh you're
trying to force my kid into believing in
your beliefs by teaching these things
which is like no we're trying to let
your kids be themselves and then there's
pushback from that yeah and I think that
it's orchestrated noise and I want to
really encourage Educators to to not
listen to that noise because again that
noise forces us to look right instead of
looking left and we know the science
behind the way students learn we know
that but we keep falling into well
here's a narrative that the politicians
are bringing into my classroom I
encourage teachers to and this is where
project-based learning is so awesome
because it's so public I want the
community to understand because they've
experienced your whatever is that you're
doing in the community if a school is in
the community and the community is
rotting that school is not I don't care
what how many A's and how many kids go
to college you are not a successful
school and so in a pbl school hopefully
the projects are things that are
happening in the community I mean I've
heard things like I don't want you to
turn my child into a social Warrior and
I'm like okay so right complete that
thought so putting these projects out in
the open really allows Educators to
regain that narrative and tell a story
worry in social emotional learning we do
ask the students to look at their
identity like I said before it has
everything to do or how do you relate
with the world how you see yourself in
the world if I'm some little black girl
who grew up in all white world and I
wanted so badly to be blonde and have
blue eyes and not have this butt that
sticks out right that is gonna change
how I see myself in the world and my
value in the world so it's very
important for me to feel valuable right
from the very beginning and not just
valuable because I look a certain way
but valuable because I can do something
I see it wrong I can fix it I see
something that's dangly I can put it
back yeah and so if you start listening
to some of the things that these parents
are bringing in it is an opportunity for
you to bring them to your classroom and
involve them bring them as Community
Partners the ones that speak the loudest
bring them as Community Partners I want
them to see it so that they can say yeah
not in my school that's not what it is
rather than trying to push or delete
things from my menu because I want to
appease the masses one of the things
about the social emotional learning
angle is by teaching self-development by
focusing on self-development you can
begin to diminish content because
content is controversial it was
controversial and the Medieval ages is
controversial today because we are in
the age of information I can teach you
of some valuable competencies to take
that context and turn it into product
right and so we can debate all of the
boogeyman that Gary stuff that suddenly
third grade education has become and try
to defend ourselves about that or try to
regain that narrative by seeing how this
third grader produces something that
Wows the world wow is the community
while it's the parents and their
legislators right we're tools we're
being used and frankly don't want us to
be done I just want that to stop so that
we can regain our own narrative so cut
that noise out I'm curious with your mom
having also been an educator outside of
the U.S how does that differ because
like in the US The Narrative is largely
driven by stakeholders who haven't
taught a day in their life whether it's
politicians or just really noisy upset
loud parents how does that compare and
contrast outside like the other schools
that you're aware of outside of the U.S
like do they have that kind of influence
on what teachers do and do not do in the
classroom they do remember the majority
of the schools in the world are the same
model right go to China go to Japan go
to Germany we still have the Germans
started this model where it was you know
the whole you know Industrial Revolution
Let's just kind of in that model has
just basically translated throughout the
entire world so when you say School you
say desks and for example my Tanzanian
School the government was more
interested about the measurements and
the dimensions of my classroom that what
the students are learning because there
is a control Factor well and then
whenever anything is wrong in society
somebody makes a mistake obviously it
must have been something your teacher
did or did not do so that is worldwide
and especially the United States we've
been the leader in the in progress the
leader in Innovation and when they hear
the stuff about the fake news they hear
the stuff about some of the things that
are happening today that is all
translating into the classroom so yes
you're hearing things in places in other
parts of the world about you know don't
teach history a certain way don't blah
blah you know because it's just kind of
whenever the United States gets like
just sneezes the rest of the world gets
pneumonia and it's been that way
unfortunately my mother was a very
traditional teacher although she was
Innovative in her way but it was just
getting away from the European narrative
was cultivating tribalism or cultivating
savagery right so you were only
civilized when you can write a certain
way or understand Shakespeare that's
still going on in many many many schools
in Africa and it will damage an extent
because sometimes the teachers
themselves don't even understand the
concept they just understand the
behavior of you know hitting a child
because they can't understand or hitting
a child because he can't read here we've
had a lot of that in the states as well
and then even here in Arizona we have a
road that's still to this day called
Indian School Road and a lot of people
were protesting that and saying well
that school that it's based off of was
supposed to quote civilize the Savages
that was the point of it was to
indoctrinate Native kids into Western
Way of being and so they would call them
Savages unless they start addressing
acting talking writing like Western
counterparts and whatnot it's worldwide
and where in the uniform with the Thai
in the suit even though it's 95 degrees
outside all day so it's worldwide it you
know and it should right now be a lens
right to people who are fighting against
what's happening in the schools right
now because what you're fighting against
is the same thing there's a norm that
you want to conserve and you don't want
progress in your schools because that's
scary or whatever it is whatever you're
going through that new problem I'm going
to make sure that my students have the
conditions that they need in order for
them to be able to react to be able to
engage and to be able to just kind of
make it in life without necessarily
being crippled by the norm and I think
that in order for us to step away from
the norm we gotta understand the
beginning which is ourselves my history
and why my hair is amazing I wish I
would have known that before how my skin
is crucial I wish I would have known
that before had I known the history and
empowering kids like that the only way
to obtain the Savages through school a
certain way probably it's controversial
thing to say but that's not what we're
trying to do we're trying to get away
from that model we want the kids to be
people they want to be or who they are
already I'm a bit of a practice nerd in
everything that I do in life whether
it's drumming gaming teaching whatever
I'm curious how do you iterate on your
own abilities and like try and progress
as an individual and this one is easy
because I'm a constant learner I love to
interact with people because every time
I talk to someone I walk away going dang
that just blew my mind right I love to
interact and you can't turn the feature
off in my case my husband often says You
just sounded really deductive for a
minute
and so you can't turn it on because I'm
always learning and I'm you know a first
adopter like type always looking always
searching my Tanzania project my project
in malabo Equatorial Guinea or in Arusha
Tanzania are the places where I go to
learn my Tanzanian teachers have they
have given me a dissertation like
Symposium on teaching more with less
right we have the most expensive
education in the world my Opera rating
budget in my school is fourteen thousand
dollars a year and that's including
salaries and with that I'm able to not I
but these teachers are able to change
the lives of kids who otherwise would
not have had schooling or would not have
had opportunities to grow their own food
understand cattle or do veterinary
science at age six because we have
chickens that need to be helped yeah and
when you're taking care of a puppy or
you're taking care and you make them
better you understand that you matter
and it doesn't matter your orientation
it doesn't matter your culture doesn't
matter whether you're taller you're fat
you matter because you have given
evidence that you do other than somebody
telling you here's a model of beauty
here's a model of intelligence and here
you have to be a doctor in order to show
that you're smart and social emotional
learning is the outline of that it's the
strategies that this teachers can use in
order to create children that feel that
way about them rather than using social
emotional learning as an extracurricular
piece it's not extracurricular it's the
main flavor the main thing you you know
just like Equity what are the strategies
that you use for yourself because it's
clear you think deeply about very heavy
and difficult topics and that can be
emotionally and intellectually draining
lead to burnout one of the things that's
cathartic is to learn empathy by
listening to the other side it really
has brought me to my knees I have family
members who are polar Opa values and
political religious thinking yet
listening to them I've understood that
sometimes especially when you have a
liberal point of view you tend to be a
colonizer yeah one of the things that I
do in my work I go into places in the
United States where you know like I'll
go to Rural America where some of these
things are not traditionally in other
words one of the things that I've the
places that I've really polished my
journey is understanding that myself
when I bring my knowledge or my wisdom
or my thinking I too can be doing the
same thing what I am saying
project-based learning the idea of
allowing autonomy is against the norm
the culture there I am bringing them
things that are no different than a
missionary going to Africa and telling
them that this is the only way that you
can have a happy life imagine going into
the Amish with ideas about you know some
of our ideas that we have and then
somehow judging them because oh my gosh
they don't get it so it's brought me to
my knees in all of these things that I
am constantly thinking about and
researching about what's the goal what's
the end game where's the plot going
right because if I'm talking Equity I'm
talking equity and if I can go to a
different culture in a country and
respect that culture for it is I better
be going to places in America where
people are polar opposite and respect
that culture for what it is that has
been something that's blown my mind like
looking at for example red versus blue
there those are two cultures and if we
can go into each other's territory
understanding that you're going to
somebody's culture values and thinking
man I was like I thought I was right
this whole time but my opinion is a
grain of sand there's a website and like
a handbook called Street epistemology
which talks about how you can engage in
difficult conversations with people you
agree with and that the questions that
you ask the framed as like a pebble or
grain of sand in the person's shoe that
will cause them to think about it and
revisit it through the rest of the day I
still find it difficult for me like a
part of some people's cultures and
understandings that gay rights should
not be a thing and as somebody who's
pansexual non-binary like I find that
very problematic it's also a part of
some people's cultural beliefs that
interracial marriage should not be a
thing and so like how do you grapple
with that at one point not trying to
colonize but at the other point trying
to be like you are hurting people
because of your way of being or your
axiologies or ontologies or whatever and
I cannot begin with that I can cannot
begin the conversation with the pain
right and this is where that empathy and
this is where we teach in project-based
learning at least in the social
emotional learning strategies that Mike
and I have put together you teach
dialogue you teach bringing the Native
American circles talking circles as ways
to honor and acknowledge as well as
provide in a place where everybody can
speak in a certain way so for me
starting with the pain shuts down the
conversation instead you five wise but
what makes you say that what makes you
say that what makes you say that because
I am just as passionate about my values
of acceptance inclusion as they are
about their religious base society as to
who belongs and who does not and if I
can provide a conditions for a person
who is polar opposite to feel like they
can grow feel like they can listen feel
like they can speak and be heard and
feel like whatever is it that they're
learning is valuable to others without
necessarily pointing out their flaws I
think that somewhere we can meet in the
middle right and as a black woman where
I've experienced all sorts of
discrimination and experience this tug
of war whether do I become the model
immigrant by assimilating or do I you
know it's a tug of war at the end of the
day with my life experience I just have
to be and control the space where I
stand that's the only control that I
have right and able to teach others to
do the same you know I'm looking right
now at the hearings for example the
January 6 hearings what two sides are
working like a symphony whether you
agree with it or not you can see that
wow these are two sides that are Polar
Opposites working in certainly riveting
I love cake dramas I love Korean dramas
and it's like episode five oh my gosh
it's on
[Music]
for the first time in the time that I've
lived in America I'm seeing two sides
produce something harmonious and that's
basically what I want and why I agree
with everybody there do I think
everybody there is a hero no but I
definitely know that I can be your
friend and I can be your guide or I can
be your support system without
necessarily agreeing to everything
you're about we don't have that right I
don't have the right as a black woman to
be accepted everywhere in the world and
that's something I don't know if it's
just brown people we've understood I
just need to have the right to just Live
and Let Live in the past year in
particular because of covid and like all
the demands societal pressures put on
Educators there's a large percentage of
teachers who are just leaving the field
completely how might you recommend they
kind of regain this love for teaching
it's like parenting the most beautiful
job the most like the most difficult job
right now we're dealing with a very
rebellious child
right you're dealing with that one that
slams the door in your face and calls
you a [ __ ] yep right right and so one
of the things that and we talk about
this in the book as to you know
post-covered kids have just a larger BS
radar they've had two years of their
lives where they were doing their thing
their own way school was happening they
would go to school for 10 minutes and it
was school and now we bring them back to
no it has to be six hours and you have
to be in a class for 55 minutes and then
blah blah blah that's all the stuff that
it's like no we don't they've gone to
the other side and they're no longer
buying what we're teaching them what
we're not teaching them is the social
emotional competencies that are just
going to make you are much more you know
like just better person and to me I
would encourage administrators to really
take a look at their structure take a
look at the day is in their school how
their schedules teacher environments and
how whether the teachers have good
social emotional learning skills whether
they're providing themselves the
conditions for teachers to have a non-op
environment right and I would really
encourage teachers to spend more time
teaching social emotional learning
skills because you're helping yourself a
child that has gone through those paces
and makes more responsible their
learning decisions stops being your
problem and now you can get to the
business of teaching I thought my kids
were just coming in more and more mature
every year but it turns out that the
kids were specifically understanding and
even hearing it from to the Grapevine in
this classroom this is how things are
and throughout the year I'd be like the
kids just get better and better now
they're just maturing and please look
right instead of look left that test
really doesn't matter it's there you can
teach the kids how to take a
standardized test which is what the
Chinese do which is what all those cram
schools are they're just all about how
to take a better test but we don't teach
our kids how to test instead we just
cram them with content hoping that
they'll do well on the test if you teach
them how to do a test then you have all
the time in the world to teach them how
to do life look right stop listening to
the noise and do what you know works for
students it's a very hard sell because I
feel also as Educators that we've gotten
so in love with the problem that the
solution is too much work yeah it's so
much easier to complain about the issues
in education and then when you offer a
solution yes but another solution yes
but right the solution is right in front
of you the solution is a child begging
you to lead them and sharpen them for
life and hopefully in this book we have
enough strategies and ideas and what we
call elevas which is a word from my West
African into a background meaning like
advice from the elders so I so we have
enough experiential advice from Mike and
I and the stories of teachers who've
gone through project-based learning and
how they braided that together to start
kind of finding a ledge where you can
just kind of start hanging on to and by
doing that you'll see that you'll start
falling in love with learning again
because the kids will begin to amaze you
again as opposed to annoying that's
brilliant yeah I'm really digging all
your answers so thank you what do you
wish there was more research on that
could inform your own practices we have
the research right the researchers there
I think the change to inform not just my
practice but the practice of teachers
just go back and listen to the science
the science has been different since the
canned curriculum I mean there are these
things that I mean just doing these
what's expected of you especially
administrators you come into the job and
you feel like well my job is to make
sure it's like a police the curriculum
no your job is to create the conditions
right and so to me look into the
researchers there and I would love to
have more Neuroscience more about how
the children learn and make sure the
teachers understand how does the brain
work where does it fire misfire I wish
Educators had more of that and less of
platform management classroom management
became social emotional learning
competencies and how to ground that into
your teaching but the research is there
look it up I don't think teachers know I
know because after I did dissertation I
was like no I didn't know how to do
research really I say that because
because you know we talk about Equity we
talk about all these points that you
know Equity inclusion all of these
things but there's a fine line between
equity and othering yeah there's a fine
line between equity and othering you see
my hair right if I want to get shampoo
for my hair if I want to get my hair
products I have to go to the ethnic
aisle not to the beauty aisle ethnic
isle is there where the cameras are by
the pharmacy because there's lots of
people there and as of 2020 Walmart took
off their lock they didn't they stopped
locking their ethnic products we do that
as a society I mean Basmati is right you
see it there's an international aisle
for basmati because that's for the other
people and so Mike and I had huge
discussions about this idea that you
know when you're bringing Equity to make
you feel better I don't know Mike said
okay so what happens if you put the word
equity and you exchange it for black
people or Chinese people or Indian
people and you say things like oh wait
going to now introduce black people
curriculum or an Indian people
curriculum very fine line and so as a
teacher I feel that if you are concerned
with the way your students develop as
people you don't have that space to
other rather than to include all of
these things that the world is thinking
to you well you gotta do Equity so
here's an equity curriculum think about
it what are you doing here is a girl
curriculum here's a boy curriculum here
is a poor people curriculum yeah and
then the intersections of that so I
co-authored a paper with John Stapleton
that I'll include a link to it in the
show notes but we were talking about how
there's a difference between culturally
relevant and culturally specific and so
the example that we give is if you talk
about culturally specific and you're
like I'm going to create a curriculum
that has paths for males females and
non-binary trans individuals okay cool
that's interesting but what about if you
also have to consider the intersections
with race are you then going to have
paths Branch off within each one of
those specific to race and then if we
look at socioeconomic status or
understanding of language like are they
multilingual are they barely
understanding English like there's so
many different intersections that you
have to consider and it's like well why
don't we just focus on students as
individuals rather than as collections
of groups of people 100 because as a
binary cisgendered female I don't have
the life experience you've had and
there's no way that I could bring you a
book that's going to relate to you like
you oh boy Black authors thank you but
then you're doing this whole thing where
it's like we're protesting about Justice
and police brutality and we get
Juneteenth thank you but that's not what
we asked for
right well thank you you replaced the
bunny book by the black author thank you
but that's not what we asked for by
focusing on the individual and focusing
on teaching the individual to just kind
of explode themselves you'll get sprayed
by what who they are and that's it done
that's it we're working so hard to
prevent that we're working so hard to
Norm in a age where norming is abusive
it's violent and creates individuals who
are broken traumatized and no good to
the society they were meant to cure and
I know in my school principles in
Tanzania we have these principles of
self-care and Community Care and care of
our environment care of our school care
of our village you can't do that if
you're broken yeah I tell you a lot of
special education kids I always get the
conversation what about special
education kids they just stop being so
special when they're in a well
cultivated project-based learning
environment where you know people are
really concerned with their skills and
competencies coping competencies and
skills yeah sure I'm curious is there
anything that you're working on that a
listener might be able to help with well
right now Mike and I are really focused
on spreading out some of the strategies
that we push in the book we are really
wanting to create there's a strategies
based on experience and also based on
our experiences of our peers so we are
really focused on grabbing those
experiences making them even more
palatable and more usable to our peers
so I know we're doing we're going to be
creating a lot more content about that
now that I am done with this book and
I'm you know the dissertation is far
away I'm have a little bit more
bandwidth to continue work in my my
African school we just got a grant to
expand so we're doing some buildings and
new buildings so if you go to Instagram
you'll see a new little building three
brand new schools we have a little
cafeteria we have little outdoor
classrooms and so I'm going to really
focus on that and focus on fundraising
for making sure that these kids can go
to school for free awesome yeah so if
people want to reach out to you it might
be able to help with that they should
definitely do that for sure you can find
me at mckinneyga.com and all of my
information I'm pretty Google because
there's just the one we think
about me I'm admitting it.com and I
would love Partnerships with schools who
are interested in partnering with
African schools not to teach them things
but to learn from a different
perspective interested in anyone that is
really into this idea of decolonizing
the way kids learn I have a big project
that I am doing where I am trying to
create an Eco village where it's not for
just rich people often these equal
Villages especially in tropical places
are just for Rich Europeans to just kind
of live out there oh I live in the wild
dreams and the people around like the
native population doesn't get too
experienced like oh yeah you're going in
there and getting all herbs but you're
just bottling them and selling them on
Instagram to your people rather than to
the people around and you know enriching
the community through these you know Eco
Villages and then so we want to create
one we have the land but now we're
looking for organizations willing to
come out and teach and learn and divulge
in specifically
stuff that our ancestors used to do
let's try to create a platform for that
so that at least people from my country
can gain that cultural self-esteem that
we've lost through colonization I think
that kids that learn in this environment
will be really interesting to watch are
there any questions or topics that we
haven't talked about that you want to
the intersection between socials
emotional learning there's a lot there
there's a lot of questions I'm always
open for a virtual coffee I think we've
talked a lot about the like at least a
perimeter of it but it's a differently a
topic that can be explored again
especially in this idea of identity and
this idea of where is identity fit in
today's classroom and with that that
concludes this week's episode of the
csk8 podcast I hope you enjoyed this
interview with matinga I know I
certainly did and I hope you consider
sharing this with somebody else or
leaving a review on whatever app that
you're listening to this on it just
helps more people find it stay tuned
next week for another episode and until
then I hope you're all staying safe and
are having a wonderful week

Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode

Other podcast episodes that were mentioned or are relevant to this episode
- Bringing Curriculum to Life: Enacting Project-Based Learning in [Computer Science] Programs
  - In this episode I unpack Tobias, Campbell, and Greco’s (2015) publication titled “Bringing curriculum to life: Enacting project-based learning in music programs” to explore how computer science educators could incorporate project-based learning in their classroom.
- CS Educator as Dungeon Master with Jon Stapleton
  - In this interview with Jon Stapleton, we discuss metaphors for education and facilitating, the importance of community and navigating inappropriate content online, how programming languages and platforms influence learning, theories and philosophies that inform Jon’s practice, critical code studies, and much more.
- Fostering Intersectional Identities through Rhizomatic Learning
  - In this episode, Jon Stapleton and I read our (2022) publication titled “Fostering intersectional identities through rhizomatic learning,” which uses mapping as a metaphor for individualized learning.
- How to Get Started with Computer Science Education
  - In this episode I provide a framework for how districts and educators can get started with computer science education for free.
- James Fester on What Works with PBL
  - In this interview with James Fester, we discuss using informal learning approaches within formal learning spaces, what makes a learning experience engaging, how James’ experience in the National Parks Service’s Teacher Ranger Teacher program informed how he taught in the classroom, unpacking nuances of project-based learning, debunking common misconceptions of PBL, and so much more.
- Project-based Learning in Computer Science with Justin Cannady
  - In this interview with Justin Cannady, we discuss project-based learning in CS, encouraging debugging and working through failure as students and teachers, considerations for integrating CS, lessons learned working on NMSI’s CS AlignEd, and much more.
- Situated Language and Learning with Bryan Brown
  - In this interview Bryan Brown, we discuss the importance of language in education. In particular, we discuss the role of language in teaching and learning, discursive identity, situated language and learning, the importance of representation in education, the role of language on stress, how smartphones and virtual communication platforms (e.g., Zoom) could change learning, and many other topics relevant to CS education and learning.
- The Place for Joy in Teaching and Learning with Sara Lev
  - In this interview with Sara Lev, we discuss the place for joy in teaching and learning, the impact of remote learning on PBL in early childhood, misconceptions around PBL in early childhood, encouraging curiosity by responding to questions with questions, social and emotional learning, the impact of yoga and meditation on teaching, and so much more.
- The Pulse of PBL with Mike Kaechele
  - In this interview with Mike Kaechele, we discuss dismantling prejudices through projects, how to situate project-based learning within the community and for local impact, what can be learned when a project fails, the difference between projects and recipes, why social and emotional learning (SEL) is important, lessons learned teaching a variety of subject areas, differences between equity and equality in education, and so much more.
- Unpacking Various Entry Points into Innovative Teaching with Jorge Valenzuela
  - In this interview with Jorge Valenzuela, we discuss the importance of engineering in STEM, situating computational thinking within a problem, getting started with computational thinking and computer science, project-based learning, incorporating social and emotional learning (SEL) in the classroom, Jorge’s approach to professional development, and much more.
- More episodes related to culturally-relevant pedagogy/curricula
- More episodes related to decolonizing
- More episodes related to social and emotional learning (SEL)
- All other episodes
Learn more about social and emotional learning (SEL) through the CASEL Framework that Matinga referenced
Learn more about Street Epistemology
Read the paper I coauthored that discusses the intersections of identities and interests in curriculum design
Connect with Matinga
Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter