The Place for Joy in Teaching and Learning with Sara Lev

In this interview with Sara Lev, we discuss the place for joy in teaching and learning, the impact of remote learning on PBL in early childhood, misconceptions around PBL in early childhood, encouraging curiosity by responding to questions with questions, social and emotional learning, the impact of yoga and meditation on teaching, and so much more.

Welcome back to another episode of the
CSK8 podcast my name is jared o'leary
each week of the podcast is either a
solo episode where i unpack some
scholarship in relation to computer
science education or an episode with a
guest or multiple guests in this week's
interview i'm having a discussion with
sarah lev where we talk about the place
for joy in teaching and learning the
impact of remote learning on
project-based learning in early
childhood misconceptions around pbl in
early childhood encouraging curiosity by
responding to questions with questions
social and emotional learning which is
seo the impact of yoga and meditation on
teaching and so much more the show notes
includes links to other podcasts and
organizations and resources that were
mentioned in this episode and you can
find that at jaredoleary.com or by
visiting the link in the app that you're
listening to this on on my website you
will find hundreds if not thousands of
free computer science education
resources including a link to boot up pd
which is the non-profit that i work for
in addition you'll find a bunch of
drumming and gaming content because i'm
into both of those as well but with all
that being said we will now begin with
an introduction by sarah hi i am sarah
lev i am a teacher i am an instructional
coach i'm an author and my work center
is really around empowering people both
adults and children to become joyful and
independent learners i'm particularly
passionate about project-based learning
and learner-centered practices social
emotional learning and embed all of that
into my work with both children and
adults and i'm particularly passionate
about early childhood educators and how
do you
empower people to become joyful because
like that's a very deep and
praiseworthy goal to do yeah i mean so
much of it is about really knowing who
your learners are whether that's
children or adults
what matters to them where they come
from and
bringing
those characteristics or those interests
into the learning process
and making sure that learning should be
joyful and it should be fun and it
should be joyful for me too so really
trying to find ways to tap into
joy when i am teaching and learning i
had a professor once who this was for a
curriculum class was talking about
standards and was like the things that
you put on standards are the things that
you then measure and assess which then
is very telling the fact that the things
that we are caring about does not
include joy and interest in actually
wanting to learn and whatnot and that
has always stuck with me of like why is
it that we aren't trying to like assess
whether or not kids are having a
wonderful time learning like the point
is just to learn a fact or a skill or an
action it's not to
learn to love learning which is i think
a huge missed opportunity absolutely and
yeah to love learning and to love what
your own questions and your curiosities
and the relationships that you have
right in a learning environment and so i
think a lot of the joy has to come from
the relationships that get built with me
but also the relationships that are
being developed with students right or
teachers right even if it's in a very
short professional development setting
those relationships are very important
so really just being aware of those
things yeah can you tell me a story
about an experience in education that
continues to have an impact on you yeah
and actually it's interesting to think
about this in that context i got an
email from a former student i remember
my students when i have them are five
years old and i received an email from a
student right after she graduated high
school and this was 2020 and i got an
email from her out of the blue she
wanted to write to me as she was
reflecting on her schooling and her
education specifically the experience
she had as a kindergartner in my class
and it was really stunning
actually i can read a little bit if you
don't mind yeah she said i graduated
high school last week and i wanted to
reach out to say hi and thank you your
classroom provided an incredibly sound
creative spirit and critical thinking
foundation that i've built upon over the
last 13 years as a little kid in your
class i just thought we were having fun
and that was how all school was i now
know that your classroom was truly a
special and unique place and she tells
about how she went on to
this project-based learning high school
and engineering school and she says it
was utterly apparent from the first day
of freshman year that i had something
most of these kids didn't profound
curiosity simply put i was excited to
learn i am excited to learn thank you
for cultivating that and in light of
what we just talked about with the joy
and independence right like yeah it's
wonderful to look back at that email
with that lens because she talks about
both those things right she was having
fun but also she developed these
critical thinking skills and curiosity
and that's being an independent learner
and you know why it was so powerful was
that you know as a teacher of very young
children we don't often get to follow up
with our students you know maybe for a
high school teacher you might see them
or hear from them but you know i don't
get that and so i'm often wondering like
will they even remember what i'm doing
you know and what kind of impact will
this project or this learning experience
have on these young children and so she
said it was a covid class of 2020 and to
get that email in that time was very
powerful and even now in challenges i
reflect on that email and just think
about like okay i might not know but
what i'm doing i'm hoping is making an
impact yeah that's a really interesting
perspective
that i didn't have so in the k-12 side
of things the shortest time that i'd see
students would be about four years so
like when i was teaching high school the
drumline stuff i'd see them from 9th
grade through 12th grade when i was
teaching computer science it was a k-8
school so i saw all nine of those grade
levels over the course of several years
and whatnot so that is an interesting
point to consider if you only have one
year then i don't know what happens
after that yeah and that student i
actually was in a school we had them for
three years so i had k one and two which
was incredible but for now it's only one
year yeah for kindergarten so i did get
to know her really well
but we started when she was only five so
i'm curious like what really resonated
with that particular student so if you
could kind of
describe like an ideal pbl experience
with like early childhood
what would somebody see or experience
going into that kind of a space yeah i
mean i think first off you know
opportunities for agency and
independence and when i think about what
that means and what that looks like it
starts with asking questions and really
making space for children to ask
questions and not answer them directly
right to really inspire questioning and
modeling questioning you would hear
questions and hear students helping one
another you know often you know a child
will ask a question i'll be like who
thinks they might be able to answer that
question or help that child you know
again going back to that idea of
relationships and connection
so there's this sense of agency and that
i'm really giving children the chance to
do what they can on their own and if not
i'm gonna help them or scaffold so that
they will be able to do it you will see
a lot of small groups and partnerships
you will see
a lot of kids doing different things
sometimes it's loud you know different
teachers have different tolerance for
that kind of energy right so i really
think about it as a type of energy and
that you will feel a lot of people call
it a buzz right but for some teachers
that feels really crazy you know
but i think if you walk into a pbl
classroom like what you're not gonna see
is like sitting in silence right
compliance right i'm putting air quotes
up because that's not what it's about
learning is active and it's engaging and
it's talking and it's relationship so
that's what i hope my classroom is and i
hope that's what people would see in
that environment yeah i really like your
point about children asking questions
and not answering them directly i met
with my principal once after he did an
observation and he rated me like a four
out of five on question techniques and i
was like wait a four out of five like i
literally never responded with a direct
answer i was only asking questions
throughout the entire class and he's
like yes you were great but what would
get this to be a five out of five is if
the students were asking questions of
each other and i was like oh i really
like that i'm glad he pointed that out
that was a really important thing for me
to consider is i shouldn't be the only
one who's asking questions in the
classroom what about the impact of
remote learning on pbl how has that kind
of changed things or what has stayed the
same remote learning really stretched me
in that year i mean i taught remotely
you know picture my kids four and five
years old who had never met each other
when they started the school year they'd
never been in school before so i mean
for me i really thought a lot about how
i could build a learning environment
that was
positive and relationship based all the
same things that i always had but over
zoom and that was really challenging but
i think pbl was really the way that i
could do it you know so the projects i
designed and developed that year were
actually some of my favorite i've ever
done like we designed a website we
produced a podcast you know we actually
wrote a book and published a book we did
this all over zoom but we were able to
do it i got obsessed with collaboration
like because i think that was the thing
that really
stretched me the most how are we going
to collaborate if my kids are not
together and so i just did a lot of
thinking and experimenting the other
thing that happened with remote learning
the impact it had was you know i had a
lot of flexibility in the structure of
my day and i had small groups every
afternoon on zoom for 20 minutes and it
was actually amazing we had these small
groups there was no interruptions
very focused attention four to five
children at a time
right and this really helped with
feedback and revisions for writing
collaboratively it was actually easier
in some ways because now i'm back in
person trying to do small groups you
know you have all this noise and
interruption so i actually tried instead
of doing the small groups this year in
my classroom i found an empty space to
bring them to that experience of remote
learning impacted my teaching because i
realized for the most effective small
group work in that kind of environment i
really the benefit of a breakout room
right it really is like essentially
creating a breakout room in the live
space so i'm lucky i have an associate
teacher so that she can stay with them
so in any case it stretched me in my
ways of thinking about collaboration and
also like yeah like feedback and
revision it was actually better
on zoom with my kids yeah it's
interesting how
while there have been some
constraints involved with going to
remote learning there's also been some
affordances where it's enabled you to do
things that you might not have
considered and that is interesting that
you then took that and went hmm how can
i apply this into an in-person context
yeah and i don't think i ever would have
tried a podcast if i weren't on zoom
because i was thinking well what can we
do like that's feasible that you know
works in the technology you know like
that was kind of interesting and now i
would try to do it again yeah especially
without age like i think when people
think of like the examples you gave of
creating a website or a book or a
podcast like all of those like they
might think okay maybe later in
elementary school but not necessarily
kinder
if somebody's listening to this and
they're skeptical like i don't know
about pbl with this particular age group
that young
what are the benefits like how would you
respond to somebody like that
project-based learning like i was saying
about joy and agency right and i'm
trying to think about you're a more
traditional learning environment because
certainly there are you know
environments that aren't pbl but might
be learner-centered where there will
still be that sense of agency so i'm
thinking about preschools often like
reggio inspired environments so
certainly that's possible but yeah it's
all about joy and agency right the sense
of surprise around what young children
can do the relationships children build
with me and with one another like where
children can really see the why behind
their learning that is what
project-based learning is right the
purpose and the relevance and this is
true for pbl at any age but for young
children it's so magical and so full of
wonder right i use that word wonderful
like it's full of wonder because they
have this confidence and i love seeing
the growth over time especially this
year you know my children have coming in
this year with most of them no school
right in the pandemic staying home no
preschool so coming in
very different place than in a typical
year and seeing my children my students
growth in agency
taking initiative with their learning
questioning finding answers i mean it
can be quantified i mean really my first
project of the year we had a set of you
know what i call need to know questions
right the questions that kids generate
and there were three
three questions and now i wish i could
show you you know a chart our most
recent project something like 25 or 30
questions that children are generating
so you really can actually see the
growth yeah so some of the benefits you
know are that that i think pbl is just
very special in any age in terms of
giving kids that authenticity and
purpose and for young children it's even
more because i don't think there's many
places in their life where they have
that kind of so
it's special what about some of the
misconceptions around pbl in early
childhood so like as an example
when i've spoken with like high school
teachers some of them will be like oh
yeah pbl is great for high school but
like you couldn't do it with any grades
younger that especially not with like
kindergarten it's like well
absolutely and that's what our book that
i co-wrote is framed around those
misconceptions it's actually called
overcoming misconceptions and reaching
success that's the title because that's
so common right so each chapter of our
book is literally a misconception that
we heard from teachers so for example
you know my kids can't read or write yet
how can they do projects or they're too
needy they can't work together that's
not gonna work right these are actually
things that we heard from teachers
another misconception is around research
because there is a misconception that
research is reading a book and writing a
report right or giving a presentation
that's not what research is research is
investigation and exploration and
experimentation right and young children
are actually experts
at doing research when you reframe it
and so the literacy piece like asking oh
yeah maybe they can't read or write or
maybe they're emergent in their skills
around literacy
how do they communicate their thoughts
and ideas because that's what literacy
is it's about communication it's also
about identity right it's yes it's about
skills it's more than skills
another big one teachers have is like oh
i have to front load too much content
right my kids aren't ready i need to
teach them too much content to do it
yeah and so that's a misunderstanding of
yes young children but also pbl right
you learn through a project you don't
learn prior to the project and that's
true for young children as well there's
lots of misconceptions that you know are
grounded in real experiences and they're
certainly valid right and i do think the
reason we wrote the book and even my
experience as an early childhood
educator when i first was getting
training and going through workshops you
know you're really looking for models
of young children doing project-based
learning and often you might not get
those and so if you don't get them then
you really just doubt and you say well
why are you only showing me a third
grade and a fifth grade example of this
and that's kind of was my experience at
first and one of the reasons that i
really wanted to write the book because
i wanted to
really dispel the myths but also give
some examples in a lot of my work right
now in terms of like we have a website
and we host a blog like is giving
teachers examples so that they know they
can do it what about with covid there
are many teachers who are talking about
learning loss and i've heard some
responses who are just like i don't have
time for pbl i need to focus on reading
writing arithmetic yeah right
foundational skills that's what
everyone's saying yeah we learn them
through project-based learning and again
it's about that engagement and purpose
because
that misconception that you know if
there's learning loss the way to learn
is by what
skill and drill okay
drill and kill right like that's not
purposeful learning and that's
definitely not joyful in my opinion you
have to believe that project-based
learning is learning
right it's not extra it's the way that
learning happens and i would argue it's
more meaningful
and and it works children learn right so
my children are definitely learning
through projects so i would say you
really have to have that belief you have
to believe but i don't believe that
drill and kill the way that kids learn
best so one of the things that i like to
do is when i like strongly agree with
something try and think of well when
would i disagree with a thing that i
strongly agree with or when would i not
do it so in the case of pbl like when
would you not do pbl with early
childhood it might be hard if you're in
a school that is very wedded to a
particular scope and sequence or
curriculum
without much flexibility i'm not saying
it's impossible but that is more
challenging or if it's a school
environment that doesn't have like a
very positive learning culture because
you need to build that culture in order
to do pbl effectively you can't do pbl
in a culture where there's a lot of
shame or blame or punitive that kind of
culture that would be really challenging
but i still think there's a lot of
teachers out there like doing pbl in
their own little islands even when they
are in those kind of environments so
some is definitely better than none
i would just say that it might be more
challenging i don't know that it's
impossible yeah i did like a modified
version so in a district that i was in
the seventh and eighth graders were
required to do a javascript course and
it was a very sequenced course like you
go through step one and then when you
finish step one you go to step two like
everybody's gone through the same
sequence but what i did was make it so
that okay
monday through thursday we're going to
do this thing we're required to do but
on friday you're going to take whatever
you learned wherever you're at in the
course and you're going to apply it into
your own unique project and we're going
to keep revisiting this every single
friday and so you're going to keep
expanding upon your ideas and what
you're learning and applying it into
this thing that is of interest to you
and so that's what i did for that year
what was required and that modification
made it so that they were taking
something they're learning
contextualizing it and something they
were interested in and then eventually
kids were like hey i want to spend more
time on this thing than just the one day
and so
after that first year is like all right
cool you can work on projects for as
long as you want yeah that's great yeah
that's great now if we were to zoom back
out
to
some of the things that have influenced
you i'm curious what's a piece of advice
related to education that has really
resonated with you back when i was in
graduate school i had this wonderful
advisor named judy leipzig and we had
like small groups an advisory group and
i remember her saying something that was
so simple but it made a huge impact on
me and what she said was you know when a
child asks you a question your first
response should be what do you think and
when i think about the way that i teach
i feel like that encapsulates so much of
what i believe it's such a simple thing
but the values that i hold as an
educator you know number one that i'm
not like a sage on the stage right my
role is to facilitate
learning my role is to empower young
children to go seek their own answers
right with my support or with
scaffolding so that little phrase that
little response what do you think is
turning it on to the child to say oh
wait i have ideas i have experiences i
have value right and all of that is sort
of wrapped up in that one sentence and
so i use that i don't know how many
times a day right like think about how
many times not just young children even
adults might ask questions right and you
might say you know well what do you
think you know so many times teachers of
older grades tell me well kids ask so
many questions and when they're young
and then it gets just pushed out of them
you know and i'm like well why is that
why is that happening that students just
over time view questions as a negative
as a signifier of the lack of knowledge
you know versus a signifier of curiosity
and interest like my student was saying
in the beginning and so i think that
that piece of advice she gave me is so
powerful and then a lot of teachers say
well then what if they say oh i don't
know you know and then i say they asked
me a question i said what do you think
and the kid's like i don't know and i
say well how can we find out together
how do you think we can find out and
that really opens it up to well i could
do this i could ask this person you
could show me this right but again it's
empowering it's giving the student the
child the agency and the confidence in
themselves as a learner and that's
really my goal
to have kids grow confident as learners
so they can go take that beyond the
classroom yeah that definitely resonates
with me i had kids sometimes be like why
won't you just tell me the answer when
i'd respond with a question and be like
because what if you have a question and
i'm not here what if there's a
substitute here or what if you're at
home and you're working on this and you
don't know like i'm trying to
teach you how to teach yourself to
figure out solutions to this or think
through potential solutions down the
road and most of the time it would click
and then be like oh i get it but
sometimes they'd be like but i just want
to know the answer
oh yeah i mean this comes up a lot with
spelling with young children you know
and parents right and so a lot of times
parents think that the way to teach
children spelling is by spelling it for
them right and a lot of children will
come to our class going how do you spell
that and i always say well what do you
think
now if children don't yet have the
phonemic awareness to spell then i just
say well you have a choice you can try
on your own or i can just write it for
you but telling a child how to spell
something is actually not helping them
with anything and so we call it brave
spelling i mean this is a research-based
approach invented spelling we call it
brave spelling but when i tell parents
this they're always like oh my gosh what
am i doing you know because i say to
them look if you are constantly telling
them how to spell things what will they
do when you're not there or when any
adult isn't there they've got to look
inside and go what do i know about
letters and words and sounds and then
you know i had a child once who she told
her parent you know what dad did you
know that i can spell any word and she
was six you know and how amazing is that
it's real because then she's not
hindered in her writing right there's
definitely a place for
you know what we call dictionary you
know standardized spelling and learning
words and all of that of course but not
during like a writing time because this
is about their voice right so anyway
it's the same idea of like what i tell
children like you can try it on your own
you know i'm interested in how
philosophies or approaches to education
kind of change over time so my own when
i first started is very different than
it is today so for you i'm curious like
when you first began in education what's
something that you no longer believe
that you used to for some reason i had
this belief that assessment was like a
dirty word you know assessment like bad
like tests
you know especially for young children
who are like you know we're teaching in
a developmental way and we want to let
them grow in their own pace you know i
had a lot of those kinds of thoughts as
an early teacher and so i really shied
away from like talking about assessment
and thinking about assessment and now i
am completely changed i had a friend and
colleague who wrote a blog about like
where the word assessment came from it
comes from the word aside i think which
means to sit beside and when i read that
i was like that is how i feel i am
sitting learning what they know you know
so that it can inform my instruction and
you know certainly learning about
assessment and i did a lot of research
for our book around like what assessment
capable means like what does it mean to
be an assessment capable learner a young
child who's able to like reflect on
where they've been and where they want
to go and set goals for themselves and i
think it's actually really beautiful and
so
my
thoughts about assessment are very
different now so in part of the work
that i do with boot up i created an
assessment resources document to try and
help new to computer science education
educators like well how do you assess
and so we tease out the differences
between assessment and evaluation and
say well they're two very different
things but there's different ways that
you can assess so like in america the
two most common ones are summative
informative so
in canada they have another one that
they often refer to as ipsitiv so
summative is usually like an assessment
of learning what did you learn
throughout this process formative is
assessment for learning but ipsec is
assessment as learning so when you're
going through an ipsec process the
intent is to not only assess but also to
learn through that process to inform
your like future goal setting and
whatnot so it's a really interesting
thing to go through and to read that and
go why isn't that more common in america
like i barely hear anyone mention ipsit
of assessment i've never heard of that
that's fascinating yeah it's fun like
the document that i'll share in the show
notes like that has the resources to it
i'll linked in it it has some links to
some like the forget the name of their
department of education but they have
like several documents that specifically
unpack well how do you use ipsit of
assessment in the classroom wow that is
great thank you for sharing that so
having worked with every grade
kindergarten
and beyond i know that the younger grade
levels are very different than like even
in upper elementary i'm curious if you
could share
some of the challenges that like these
early childhood educators
experiences that other educators even in
the elementary space might not be aware
of yeah i mean i think
that
some of the challenges are around making
learning accessible well i'll just tell
a story so one time i was in a new
school environment new faculty new staff
i was sitting at a table during like our
first pd and i teach tk so transitional
kindergarten which in california is the
first of a two-year kindergarten program
so it's kind of unique to california my
kids are four they turn five in the
first three months of the year so i was
developing a new program standalone tk
and this teacher said to me she i think
she taught high school or admin and she
said oh man i guess you're going to be
doing a lot of cutting and gluing
and i just thought and i had to say like
well it's way more than that
you know so i think there's this one
perception that like the academics are
really easy you know because the content
oh we all know one plus one we all know
two plus two but like but i think
there's a misconception or maybe there's
a thought of like you know what teaching
foundational skills like that and making
them accessible to a very diverse group
of students
is very challenging so that's one piece
i would say and the other piece is just
around social and emotional development
i think
that you know there's a perception that
like oh it's all just like this
touchy-feely time of friends and this
and that you know and like a lot of
people may not realize like there's a
lot of thoughtful skill that needs to go
into
supporting young children social and
emotional development in terms of all
the skills that we might take for
granted you know and especially this
year i mean a lot of times i've been
describing this year and people are like
oh wow i never thought about that you
know for example young children have
they've never been in a group they don't
know what it means really many of them
unless they have a sibling you know
don't know what it means to take turns
to share materials to ask for what they
need you know to ask me what they need
you know they're used to getting a lot
from their parents or their caregivers
so what is a teacher what is the role of
a teacher right all of these things take
a lot of care and thought and i think
you know that's what i would say that
the early childhood teachers are very
skillful at really developing and
helping children develop these skills
and these by the way are not soft skills
right they're not nothing these are
essential skills that i would argue are
needed throughout you know all learning
even adults
i think we see that you know loud and
clear right now so
that's probably what i would say yeah
that's really making me think back to
when i used to teach elementary general
music and band there were
some music educators and especially
people outside of the field who thought
oh well high school is harder to teach
music than it is with elementary because
all you're doing is teaching them hot
cross buns and things like that it's
like no having taught like professional
level groups like that is so much easier
to
refine things than it is to teach 30
kids simultaneously how to play 30
different instruments and they've never
like held it before like to get them
from making a sound that doesn't sound
like a train to like playing hot cross
buns requires a ton of skill and effort
and whatnot it is very difficult to
teach those foundational skills yeah i
had another teacher asked me if there
were like standards like oh are there
kindergarten standards
like yes of course like but i mean i
understand like if you're not around you
know young children you might not know
so i try you know that's again like a
part of our book and my work is really
just around you know helping teachers
know too
like about the many skills that teachers
of young children have to have you know
academics as well as social and
emotional learning what is social
emotional learning and then how did you
learn about it yeah i mean social
emotional learning i mean there's a lot
of different places where you can learn
you know what it is you know how i
learned about social emotional learning
or sel you might call it or the acronym
i was a founding teacher at a brand new
charter school and the charter school
was founded on sel was a core part of
the mission and the vision of the school
so meaning that you know we're not just
going to focus on academic content
standards when i think about social
emotional learning i think about the
many things that make us human beings
right not just and i'm not talking about
your emotions i think that's a
misconception it's not just your
feelings right sel is about your
relationships like how you develop
relationships how you set goals for
yourself
right yes it's about self-awareness your
self-regulation skills right but it's
even more than that it's your identity
it's how you problem solve it's how you
work with others and collaborate and so
much of sel has to do with the socio you
know political context we're in like you
can't separate who we are as people our
race our gender
you know all of these things are a part
of of our identities and i think sel
encompasses all of those things so all
learning is social and emotional right
there's another misconception that like
sel is over here and academics are over
here and so you know there's a great
book that just came out a year or two
ago it's actually called all learning is
social and emotional and
really
brings home that fact that if you have a
child or an adult frankly who is in a
learning environment you can't tease out
sel right because they're coming in with
thoughts and ideas and feelings about
who they are that is connected to how
they learn content right so yeah a lot
of those skills that you mentioned
sound like things i have worked on
through therapy over years and it would
have been nice to have developed those
skills earlier
totally yeah and i mean i think
unfortunately or for well i'd say it's
fortunately after the pandemic all of a
sudden it's like oh well now we have to
focus on sel right kids are coming back
they've all experienced trauma and i'm
glad that schools are beginning to
acknowledge sel
in the midst of this pandemic it's just
surprising that it took a
you know global pandemic to make
educators think about children's whole
being and whole selves as they are
showing up to a learning environment you
know there's a huge you know focus now
on sel programs and curricula and you
know making sure we're addressing
children's social emotional development
but this is always important not just
after a trauma yeah and that also sounds
like a misuse of seo like there are
trauma-based approaches and therapies
and whatnot and those would probably be
better suited for handling trauma as
opposed to just crowbaring sel into it
yeah but i mean hey if that's something
that comes out of this pandemic and you
know educators are focused on sel in the
classroom that's great i hope it doesn't
go away if somebody's listening to this
and they're like i'm not really sold on
it like why do you think it's important
for educators to
consider and learn more about sel yeah i
think it's important to consider sel
because as i mentioned
sel social and emotional learning all
learning is social and emotional
learning and so teachers cannot possibly
be teaching children without considering
these skills i just don't know how that
would be possible so you mentioned a
book i'm curious do you have other
resources that you recommend for people
learning more about sel one resource
that many teachers use is castle so that
is the collaborative for academic social
and emotional learning so that website
has a ton of resources they actually
have a new framework
that's been really incredible called
transformative sel it's actually been
linked to project-based learning in a
lot of really positive ways and there's
some research around that it's great to
see the connection actually between sel
and pbl so i would check out castle
that book is great and so the book that
i mentioned is called all learning is
social and emotional that's by fisher
fry and smith and i love their framework
actually
castle is great but their framework
their model in their book it has 33
different skills that are really deep to
think about and then different scenarios
as a teacher that you would be you know
seeing those skills one of my favorites
that are is new in theirs is public
spirit right so this idea of really
working as a leader right and being a
leader in your community things like
that so i definitely recommend that book
but i recommend checking out
transformative sel specifically and some
of the research that castle has the
other resource i really really love is
responsive classroom and responsive
classroom has trainings and books that
really transformed my work as a teacher
in terms of language and culture so
building a positive culture in your
classroom
which is deeply connected to developing
children's social and emotional skills
and the other organization that i love
that i'm also a yoga teacher and i work
with an organization called yoga ed
which brings yoga tools into the
classroom and for teachers which also is
really connected to sel and why i love
yoga ed is that it embodies
the ideas of social and emotional
learning and brings it into your body
and into your breath in the classroom
and so i do a lot of very simple yoga
for transitions or movement breaks that
is really connected to especially
self-awareness and self-regulation in
children so i love yoga ed too yeah
that's interesting i hadn't heard of
yoga being used for self-regulation i
know of some schools that are using
meditation in particular to
help with that so how has yoga kind of
other than like transitions and whatnot
how has it impacted your own teaching or
even meditation yeah i mean i've been
practicing yoga for over 20 years so for
my own personal well-being
it's essential
as a teacher but also just as a human
being so i'm very connected to my body
and my breath but in terms of using it
with my students in my classroom there's
so many great resources that children
love the challenge of yoga postures you
know and they love to you know do cool
stuff with their bodies and so that's
just kind of fun i mean talk about the
joy you know trying to find this
balancing pose or you know can you hold
this pose for this long and you you do
just really fun things but also secretly
it's helping them pay attention to how
their body's feeling and pay attention
to their breath you know breath is such
a powerful tool in terms of
self-regulation you know my class has
what we call a peace corner and that is
a place where children it's not a place
i send kids it's a place that a child
says i need to go there they don't use
the word self-regulate but that's what
it's for we use the words like big
feelings you're having a big feeling and
it's it's hard for you to stay in the
class with us right now you can go to
the peace corner and put our timer on
and it's a couple minutes and you could
do some breaths i teach them different
breaths to do there there's something to
draw there's books there's blocks and
then when they're done they come back
right so it's teaching children how to
self-regulate it's the same thing adults
need right and i tell them i said i need
a break
right mindfulness you know we do
mindfulness in different ways we don't
call it meditation i think because maybe
some people you know maybe some
negative thoughts associated with
meditation but mindfulness has become
much more prevalent i think in
educational you know we use different
curricula i use the mindful schools
curriculum i use mind up these are great
resources to teach children really to
pay attention to what's happening now
without judgment that's what i tell kids
you know mindfulness is just paying
attention to what's happened i think
that comes from john kabat-zinn you know
just the idea of we're paying attention
to what's happening without judgment and
can we do that in different environments
do we do mindful schools i don't know if
you've seen mindful schools a great
curriculum but adaptable lessons on
mindful listening and mindful breathing
mindful body mindful tasting you know so
like this is a part of our school
language our classroom language and then
you can use it in you know everyday
context you know can you be mindful when
you're lining up can you be mindful when
you're sitting down at lunch and make
sure that your body is in a safe space
right so like things like that my kids
are very comfortable with that and
that's school-wide we do mindfulness
practices the examples that you provided
both for yoga like as a transition and
for mindfulness or meditation however
you want to frame it it's very different
than i think most people think of like
oh if i'm going to go to a yoga class
it's like an hour and i have to go and
do this thing one of the things that
i've heard from like i listened to a
podcast called 10 happier with dan
harris and so he talks about how like
you don't have to spend two hours a day
meditating like it could just be sitting
for 20 seconds and just like gathering
your thoughts like you were describing
with like hey just spend two minutes
just kind of focusing on your breath and
whatnot i love 10 happier
and actually in the pandemic is when i
found 10 happier so
i forgot you'd asked about like how is
you know this my personal practice
impacting my teaching
i had always done yoga and certainly
mindfulness is part of yoga but in terms
of practicing meditation when we went to
quarantine is when i found 10 happier
his book and then that podcast and yeah
absolutely i mean it doesn't have to be
a big sit-down thing right and it's
accessible to anybody including young
children and yoga ed is really
incredible at bridging those things
right so like bridging like what we know
about mindfulness and yoga to children
in a learning environment and not only
that but for teachers right so they have
all these great resources and tools for
teachers because we need these resources
yeah you know i started to have a
practice where actually this came from
my brother-in-law who practiced this
meditation he says every time you open a
door breathe in or breathe out you know
so like i would before i would walk into
my classroom every day i take a deep
breath in and a deep breath out like
really simple things like that and when
it was remote it would be opening my
laptop right i'd like open my laptop be
like okay that kind of routine helps and
it helps children too so when we come in
from
lunch and recess we sit down on the rug
ready for story we do breath when we you
know have a morning meeting and then we
are about to shift into our first
instructional block we do breath you
know but they're like fun breaths you
know like you can do ocean breath or you
can do bear breathing and there's lots
of different names for the breaths that
yoga ed has titled so that it's easy to
remember yeah you know a bear hibernates
in the winter and it's like breathe in
hold breathe out for three right like
imagine you're a bear you know so the
kids love that yeah and for anyone who's
listening to this and who is skeptical
subtitle is like meditation for the
fidgety skeptic so like one of the
reasons why i love listening that
podcast is he interviews a bunch of
people from many domains talking about
how they use meditation or breathing
techniques like whether it's an olympic
level athlete or a high level performing
musician or a politician or whatever
there's all these different ways that
you can focus on your breath like using
a square breath or triangle breath or a
rectangular breath or there's one where
you like inhale and then you do another
larger inhale after that and then you
exhale and like that's used for anxiety
management like there's so many
interesting things that are backed by
science this isn't just like some
woo-woo thing as dan harris would call
it like it is very beneficial for anyone
whether it's adults or kids i try to
model this for my kids too so like
teachers we get frustrated right and
instead of losing it or yelling or you
know when i do go to those places i am
very transparent with my students and
i'm like i need to take a breath right
now because i'm feeling really
frustrated and they see me do it
or i'm really aware that right now i'm
about to well they call it flipping your
lid in dan siegel's book which i'm
blocking out right now i can find out
but he talks about like flipping your
lid right like your amygdala is getting
hijacked and so i'll teach my kids this
idea of like your prefrontal cortex and
your amygdala this comes from this the
mind up curriculum and i'm about to flip
my lid
you know
and i'll just say to them what's going
to help me right now is just taking a
couple breaths or like stepping outside
for a second and they see me doing that
and then i'll come back in they'll be
like are you okay miss sarah you know
i'm like yep i'm good now
but then they'll do that right so i
think it's important to model that yeah
for children to know
just like you know i'm having a big
feeling i need a break what do we do you
know we don't have time out in our class
we don't have a place i send children i
might say do you need a break right now
or like i think you need a break which
is different than the peace corner and
that's something that comes from
responsive classroom just this idea of
like we're not giving timeouts
right we are going to honor the fact
that we all forget our agreements
sometimes and we might need a break to
reset just like i might need a break so
yeah and to add on to the idea of
modeling i will be transparent and that
i have scheduled after this interview
i'm going to meditate outside for 20
minutes so that is something that i try
and do midway through my day to just
like do a mental reset and especially
going outside because i'm inside most
the time in front of a computer i just
want to get some vitamin d and whatnot
so that's awesome yeah i mean one of the
things the pandemic helped me to do is
to find meditation and mindfulness i
also have a routine in the morning where
i listen to a positive podcast basically
so i wake up pretty early i wake up at
five
and my routine is i wake up i make
coffee i listen to some podcast like 10
happier happiness lab something to help
me kind of get in a frame and then
exercise or do yoga or work out
something like that even before my
children wake up and i have to start my
day it's really really important for me
to do that but listening to podcasts
that were around you know that topic of
meditation or mindfulness were really
really important and i still do it even
though we've gone back so i'm curious if
this will build off of what you're just
describing so working in education is
difficult there are many pressures and
demands put on educators but this last
couple of years in particular has been
very intense for educators i'm wondering
how do you intentionally take care of
yourself to try and prevent the burnout
in general and then in addition to all
the stuff with covid we're recording
this in january we just went back and
it's been a really really challenging
time i think it really has to do with
balance and creating very clear
boundaries right i don't tend to bring
work home with me very much i'm a parent
so that's one piece of really trying to
set some clear boundaries also it's
about really continuing to seek out new
challenges and work that i love you know
when you talk about burnout i've been in
the classroom 17 years it's really been
important to me to focus on my overall
purpose as an educator and my own
commitment to growth so that means doing
things outside of my day of teaching
right that are really meaningful to me
that stretch me so writing the book was
a great example of like wow that really
was like another full-time job but it
was so important for my own development
and growth i work with pbl works as a
national faculty member doing work with
them as a facilitator
so really focusing on my own growth is
important to me also just on a more
personal level like i'm very grounded in
nature i love
hiking and camping and you know
listening to live music you know finding
the things that bring me joy outside of
the work
and also having like a few close friends
work in education is so important right
especially this year it's kind of been
hard to explain to non-educators what it
is like to be in the classroom right now
over the last two years for sure and so
it's good to have people around who
understand just one or two
that's been important to me i'm curious
if you can elaborate on the first thing
that you mentioned so how do you have
clear boundaries if you're working from
home like in a remote setting well it
was really about like having my own
designated space for my classroom which
was like basically i have a small house
in the hallway at a desk closing my
laptop and like getting outside i would
go outside for lunches i would take my
son on bike rides during the lunch
trying to do something different to sort
of make that space different for myself
you know i saw a funny video that was
like somebody like they're sitting on
their couch end of the work day they
close their laptop and they move over a
foot and they open their laptop and
they're like it's the weekend you know
so
it's but it's kind of like that was kind
of like having a designated space i
think to help but also like i was saying
my mornings
of listening to a positive podcast doing
the dishes exercising outside like all
of those things to mark beginning of
work pre-work and then post-work i also
am lucky i live in los angeles we live
near the ocean we can drive to the beach
and see the beach and that was really
really helpful being outside really
helps me yeah you joke about moving over
a foot like that
it actually sounds like one of the
things that i did to separate my
like work time from my leisure time on
the same device like so right now i have
a monitor directly in front of me and
then one angled to my right but what i
would do when i was switching to leisure
is i would change that orientation so
now it's on the left that angle monitor
and like that little thing it made a
huge difference it was like okay no i'm
in leisure time i'm not in work time
right now even though it's all the same
hardware i'm using
yeah that's good the other thing i think
i heard you know i would always like get
dressed and like put shoes on right like
i think something i heard that not
everybody did right like i would get
dressed as if i was going to work and
then after work it would be like okay my
shoes are off and now i'm you know in my
sweats or whatever so i think i didn't
thought about that but i think that was
another thing that i did that helped me
feel like i was working and not working
when you're describing pushing yourself
like stretching yourself beyond what you
can currently do i'm curious like how do
you use that to
iterate on yourself and being
intentional with practicing or improving
your own abilities as an educator or in
education well a lot of that has to do
with really thinking about what i'm
interested in and again where my purpose
is so if my purpose is around empowering
early childhood you know for example or
to really build independent learners so
i have to ask myself who's doing that
work you know and how can i learn from
them and you know one of the answers to
that question for me was the work of
zoretta hammond who wrote culturally
responsive teaching in the brain and her
work her book has had a really deep
impact on me so when it you know just
kind of being aware of what's out there
last year she had a beta of her plc
culturally responsive education by
design and so i signed up for that you
know like even though
it was a crazy time for me like i was
teaching remotely and everything but you
know it was kind of like well when am i
gonna do this and it was actually one of
the most impactful so it's things like
that really looking for people who i
want to study with and learn with
the other thing is being able to be a
member of the pbl works national faculty
i mean we haven't gotten a chance to
have a summit we used to have two
summits a year together where all you
know 90 of us would get together and
have a weekend of learning experiences
and deepening our own practice around
facilitation and consulting and coaching
i really miss those it's just such an
inspiring group to be a part of and i'm
always learning so you know even when i
get a chance to be out like in the field
facilitating workshops and i get to work
with another national faculty we're at
the same site or something i mean we
just it's so so inspiring so you know i
think those are the most impactful times
for me
and podcasts are helping too like just
introduce me to
new people and new work and helping me
think through how i want to grow what do
you
feel is holding back educators or the
field and what's something that we could
do about that i mean right now i feel a
very specific time in education and what
is holding back educators i think right
now is like we are so
stretched and drained i mean i'm
speaking from experience but just like
there's just so much expected of
educators and now there's other just big
things going on with race and equity and
i just read an article that teachers
would be miked and there would be videos
in the classroom i mean these ideas that
we can be monitored in this way i mean
that would certainly hold me back i mean
that's not happening for me where i am
but you know we need to be trusted
i think what is holding back educators
maybe this sense that like other people
think they can do our jobs or other
people think they know what it means to
be a teacher and that we can just do it
because we're either parents or we've
been to school so somehow just learning
about all of the things going on around
critical race theory and school boards
that is truly i didn't think i'd go here
today but that really is on my mind when
you ask me about what's holding
educators back that would hold me back
if i was at in danger of being miked and
and videoed while i was teaching yeah
when was about may of 2020 when parents
were realizing just how hard it is to
teach a student i thought we were
reaching a tipping point where people
were going to finally understand and the
social status of educators was going to
improve but then how quickly did that
flip with oh you're preventing me from
going back to my job etc etc etc like we
turned into babysitters again that they
wanted to control and
it's a shame that it took that kind of a
sharp turn luckily i'm in a great school
where there's a lot of appreciation and
a sense of gratitude i think but yeah
that would hold some teachers back and i
think a lot of teachers are burnt out
and want to leave the profession because
of those high expectations yeah what do
you wish there's more research on that
could inform your own practices well
it's funny like going back full circle
from the first you know story about my
student i wish there was more research
on like the impact of project-based
learning on young children you know
how is their questioning different how
could we you know like their curiosity
or their agency like are those
measurable and how and when you know
there's certainly been a lot of research
around project-based learning in the
last year or two and there was one study
that was about second graders which was
great to see but i also wish there was
more research on like younger children
like preschool kindergarten on how that
impacts their
agency and their skills in maybe fifth
grade you know but then even maybe later
that would be interesting yeah if there
are more longitudinal studies that would
be wonderful i did an interview with
andreas stefik and we discussed how
some of the ways that higher education
is structured for tenure and promotion
and whatnot it does not reward
longitudinal studies so what it does
reward is putting out a lot of smaller
studies so that's what people tend to do
so they can get more publications and
presentations and so less people will do
the five-year 10-year projects because
that won't get you tenure got it which
is a shame yeah what's something that
you're working on that you could use
some help with yeah i actually just
enrolled in a course in instructional
design so
that is new for me but i'm super curious
about it and really thinking about like
how my skills as a teacher could
translate into the instructional design
process for different contexts whether
it's like probably an education company
but maybe other you know going back to
my interest in like mental health and
well-being is there a place for or a
need for
instructional design in some of those
fields so i'd love help with that
i'm always looking for help with
you know
how to operationalize culturally
responsive teaching and anti-bias work
so that is something i'm always looking
for help with as well like i said i did
the plc with zoretta hammond and
really last year and trying to take what
i learned last year and couldn't quite
put into practice because i wasn't in
person and i'm trying to do more of that
this year in my classroom with my
students so where might people go to
connect with you and the organizations
that you work with sure so first of all
my book is called implementing
project-based learning in early
childhood overcoming misconceptions and
reaching success i co-wrote that with my
colleagues and friends aaron starkey and
amanda clark we are all pbl works
national faculty so you can find me at
the pbl works website which is a great
resource for anybody who wants to try
pbl
lots of free
great great great resources there as
well as trainings and workshops and then
i have our own company early childhood
project-based learning we have a website
earlychildhoodpbl.com where we have a
blog and trainings and workshops and we
have an online course and you can find
me there and then we also have a
facebook group that actually we just got
up to 3 800 people so really growing
wonderful community of educators early
childhood educators who are interested
in pbl and so that's really fun because
i've been able to meet people from
around the world who are doing pbl with
young children and again great examples
people ask each other questions share
projects so all of those places are
places you can find me and with that
that concludes this week's episode of
the csk8 podcast friendly reminder you
can find links in the show notes at
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all staying safe and are having a
wonderful week

Guest Bio

Sara Lev is the co-author of the book Implementing Project Based Learning in Early Childhood: Overcoming Misconceptions and Reaching Success. She has been an early childhood teacher in public, private and charter school settings since 2005, and currently teaches Transitional Kindergarten in Los Angeles. Sara received her Master’s Degree in Early Childhood Education from Bank Street College in New York City. Sara is a member of the National Faculty of PBLWorks where she facilitates Project Based Learning workshops for PreK-12 educators and is also the co-founder (with her co-authors Erin Starkey and Amanda Clark) of Early Childhood Project Based Learning, where she supports educators of our youngest learners in developing and implementing PBL.

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  - In this interview with Justin Cannady, we discuss project-based learning in CS, encouraging debugging and working through failure as students and teachers, considerations for integrating CS, lessons learned working on NMSI’s CS AlignEd, and much more.
- Situated Language and Learning with Bryan Brown
  - In this interview Bryan Brown, we discuss the importance of language in education. In particular, we discuss the role of language in teaching and learning, discursive identity, situated language and learning, the importance of representation in education, the role of language on stress, how smartphones and virtual communication platforms (e.g., Zoom) could change learning, and many other topics relevant to CS education and learning.
- Unpacking Various Entry Points into Innovative Teaching with Jorge Valenzuela
  - In this interview with Jorge Valenzuela, we discuss the importance of engineering in STEM, situating computational thinking within a problem, getting started with computational thinking and computer science, project-based learning, incorporating social and emotional learning (SEL) in the classroom, Jorge’s approach to professional development, and much more.
- More episodes related to assessment
- More episodes related to early and pre readers
- More episodes related to project-based learning
- More episodes related to social and emotional learning (SEL)
- All other episodes
Check out Sara’s book, Implementing Project Based Learning in Early Childhood: Overcoming Misconceptions and Reaching Success, that she coauthored with Amanda Clark and Erin Starkey
Resources and organizations we mentioned
Connect with Sara
Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter