Helping New-to-CS Educators with Ashley Waring

Helping New-to-CS Educators with Ashley Waring
Jared O'Leary
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In this interview with Ashley Waring, we discuss Ashley’s experiences with integrating CS in the classroom, lessons learned providing professional development for new-to-CS educators, what Ashley learned helping write Alabama’s CS standards and providing support after the rollout, language and oppression in standards development, why focusing on a college degree as an end goal might not be as important as focusing on lifelong learning, and more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast my name is jared o'leary

    each week of this podcast is either a

    solo episode where i unpack some

    scholarship in relation to computer

    science education or an episode with a

    guest or multiple guests in this week's

    particular episode i'm having a

    conversation with a co-worker at boot up

    and her name is ashley waring in this

    discussion we chat about ashley's

    experiences with integrating cs in the

    classroom lessons learned providing

    professional development for new to cs

    educators well ashley learned helping

    write alabama's cs standards and

    providing support after the rollout

    language and oppression in standards

    development why focusing on college

    degrees as an end goal might not be as

    important as focusing on lifelong

    learning and so much more as always

    there are many links in the show notes

    that you can find at jaredoliri.com

    including a link to bootuppd.org which

    is the non-profit that i work for where

    i create 100 free coding curriculum so

    if you want to dive deeper into any of

    the resources that are mentioned in this

    particular episode such as some of the

    podcasts that i mentioned or even some

    of the books like by jamie's paul g make

    sure you check out the show notes and

    with that we will now begin the

    interview with ashley i'm ashley waring

    i'm a boot up pd facilitator i also have

    been working with a plus college ready

    and code.org as a computer science

    fundamentals facilitator in state of

    alabama for a few years and i'm excited

    to be here can you tell me the story of

    how you got into computer science

    education i'm really close to my family

    and i've always kind of come from a

    close-knit family and i've always been

    the like techie of the group so whenever

    my parents got a new sound system or you

    know if somebody needed help fixing the

    printer or couldn't figure out a program

    i was always the one to kind of take the

    lead on that because of that in high

    school i took apcs for about three weeks

    and realized that not only was i the

    only girl in that class but i also

    didn't have any background other than

    like keyboarding and stuff like that in

    middle school so it was just kind of a

    disconnect there i ended up doing

    biology but fast forward a few years and

    i was in the classroom got to jump on

    integrating chromebooks in the classroom

    in a fourth grade general ed class and

    with that came an opportunity to take a

    code.org pd and that really sparked my

    cs education interest i walked away from

    that like why aren't we teaching this as

    a common literacy to everybody my mom

    was just blown from after that pd

    learning about computational thinking

    learning about you know the stats behind

    jobs for my students that still aren't

    even created yet you know and being able

    to prepare them for that so not only do

    they need to read and be able to do some

    math and you know understand some

    fundamentals of science but i also

    walked away from that just really

    thinking that fundamentals in computer

    science was another thing that students

    needed at an elementary level so from

    that i started integrating code.org into

    my

    classroom so you know we might do like a

    fun code friday or something like that

    and then i started to get more and more

    into

    the technical side of cs i guess uh

    instead of just kind of playing around

    in puzzles really thinking about those

    computational thinking concepts and

    trying to pull them out in a way that

    students can kind of solidify those

    abstract concepts that they can be

    sometimes but also had an hour of code

    in my classroom which was an event that

    code.org does and had really awesome

    success with that bringing in volunteers

    from the real world who work in cs and

    then got more schools across the

    district to start participating in hour

    of code with us and then i got an

    opportunity to apply to be on the

    committee for alabama the technology

    standards were up for

    re-certification i got to be a part of

    that and we actually ended up changing

    the standards from being technology

    standards to being digital literacy and

    computer science standards to meet the

    needs of our students and we were the

    standards for kindergarten through 12th

    grade so that's kind of my journey i've

    been a stem teacher since then i've been

    a csf facilitator with code.org for a

    few years like i mentioned and was also

    worked at the district level so i've

    just kind of taken it and seeing what cs

    can do in the classroom and run with it

    which i didn't really mention but that

    was a huge part of why i kept going with

    integrating cs was i saw it as a great

    equity tool in the classroom because

    some of my students who

    maybe you know caught on easily to

    concepts in traditional

    academia would struggle a little bit and

    be able to taste the struggle that they

    didn't taste in other areas which i

    think is great learning some grit and

    perseverance and then also students who

    didn't have that traditional success got

    success through those computational

    thinking skills or through those coding

    projects and that kind of trickled into

    the rest of their education they got

    that taste of success and it kind of

    motivated them in other ways too so yeah

    that's kind of how i got into cs

    so one of the nice things about working

    at boot up is we've had a lot of

    conversations with other non-profits and

    people within the space who are

    especially doing like professional

    development and curriculum and whatnot

    one of the interesting things that we've

    noted is that many providers have

    difficulty with implementation rate like

    a year or two after actually having done

    the workshop and whatnot it sounded like

    this really resonated for you and was

    very positive experience for you and the

    kids that you work with but i'm curious

    like from your perspectives like either

    as a teacher as like standards writer or

    as a pd facilitator like why do you

    think it is that so many people

    end up dabbling in cs and then

    ultimately drop it after a while i think

    it could be multiple reasons so

    i think that having a community when

    you're a first-time cs teacher is huge

    so like other teachers you can go to and

    be like i don't know what this is about

    can you help me figure out what this is

    about so kind of being a

    lead learner in that way you know

    connecting with other people keeping

    your mind open to having that support

    and learning so you know as your

    students are learning you're continuing

    to build your own learning and your

    connections with others

    in certain scenarios i could see where

    teachers you know the first year

    students get the basics get the

    foundations and that's what the teacher

    has a great understanding of but then

    when the second year comes around and

    there's more

    you know deeper problems or deeper

    projects deeper coding concepts involved

    teachers can be intimidated by that and

    if they don't have that support that

    team then maybe they just kind of drop

    off or it just doesn't become a priority

    and another thing could be you know

    do they have

    support from their admin is there an

    interest in the community you know do

    they have that external support in

    continuing that learning as well so i

    spent weekends weeknights so-called

    breaks and holidays learning several

    different languages and just diving

    deeper into programming and computer

    science but i'm wondering because there

    wasn't opportunities for me to spend

    class time or school time to do

    professional development basically i had

    to do it on my own and i know most

    teachers don't have that luxury did you

    have the luxury of being able to learn

    it on school clock hours or did you have

    to kind of teach yourself outside of it

    i think it was a little bit of both i

    definitely had that

    support and interest from admin from you

    know we had a district initiative well

    it was stem based but ces was a part of

    that so i definitely had that support

    but i feel like my professional learning

    was

    through the school and like i was able

    to have that like during school hours

    like you know i would have a sub in my

    classroom and i would be able to go to a

    pd that kind of thing but i feel like

    the community building was very much

    outside of my school's realm or support

    or capabilities i guess so i kind of

    feel like it was two pockets to make it

    a success so one of the things that i

    really like to ask us is asking about

    like kind of something that they

    believed when they first started in

    education or cs education that they no

    longer actually believe in so kind of

    having that change in thought over time

    because i myself have like had many

    things where i'm like oh yeah this is

    awesome the greatest thing ever and then

    i look back on that go yeah i would have

    done that differently and i do that

    differently right now i'm wondering for

    you like what's something that you first

    believe when you first started working

    in education or cs education that you no

    longer believe now one that sticks out

    to me is that i used to think you know

    like i became a new teacher and new

    teacher i'm getting my kids ready for

    college so i feel like i used to think

    that every kid needed to be prepared to

    go to college and i really don't believe

    that at all anymore like some students

    are going to go to college and do that

    kind of thing but other students can

    graduate from high school and have cs

    endorsements and get a 60 000 a year job

    you know when i think about that

    question i think about like

    new little teacher ashley you know

    over at her little school what did she

    used to think and

    i think about what my perception of

    equality was then and how i've kind of

    transitioned into understanding the

    difference between equality and equity

    and

    like seeing those like start problems

    across districts just because of where

    they're located has helped me with that

    because i've kind of gone from one end

    of the spectrum to the other in my

    public ed background and it's not fair

    you know it's not fair so i think that

    was a big thing i just kind of thought

    that everybody got the same thing

    because that's what i was taught you

    know but it didn't you know i've noticed

    it's not

    it's not so yeah i think once people

    actually start teaching in multiple

    different schools and communities and it

    makes it easier to see just how

    drastically different one person's

    education can be from another yeah just

    because of where you grew up you know or

    where you're born or

    yeah i'm curious about this question i

    haven't asked in a while but i like

    asking guests as questions so what's

    something related to education that

    you're really good at are really

    knowledgeable app that most people don't

    know about you i love biology i've

    always been fascinated by you know

    genetics or osmosis like anything

    broadly under biology i

    kind of got a

    spark again for biology when i was a

    stem teacher and i did this virtual

    reality google expedition with my

    students and it was looking through the

    eyes of different animals and like you

    know on one side you could see

    what we as humans see on the other side

    you can see what animals see i mean i

    probably taught that lesson

    like more excited were you always

    interested in that subject area and if

    not how did you develop that interest so

    remember i took ap cs for a minute

    i when i did drop that i

    picked up ap biology instead so i feel

    like that's like i've always been

    interested or fascinated by you know how

    things work inside especially things

    that are not mechanical you know like i

    understand how the computer makes itself

    work or you know we make the computer

    make itself work but it's fascinating to

    me that ourselves work without being

    programmed i guess

    so those like natural programs natural

    algorithms natural builds it's really

    cool to me so if i'm wondering could you

    paint a picture of what an ideal cs

    and learning environment would look like

    for you yes do you have a paint brush uh

    in the other room

    so to me an ideal cs learning

    environment would be

    not a quiet place i mean you could

    definitely i feel like you could sense

    some you know focus and collaboration

    but not a quiet place you know i think

    that students

    in that kind of environment are

    talking to each other talking to the

    teacher and i feel like the teacher in

    that environment is a lead learner so

    maybe not the person who knows all the

    answers but the person who can help

    find other people who might know the

    answers and also modeling you know

    failure is

    a first attempt in learning and that the

    classroom community would also you know

    support that i think you know students

    are in that environment are hopefully

    investigating like real world

    issues that are

    are interesting to them

    and

    working through an iterative process in

    building out a solution for that through

    programming and development for that

    yeah i think that just about covers it

    collaborative not quiet interest-based

    project-based but interest-led i guess

    interest driven so how do you help

    teachers realize that through

    professional development and not just

    speaking of like boot up this isn't like

    an advertisement for like the nonprofit

    we work for but i mean just broadly

    speaking professional development in cs

    for me as a facilitator i really like to

    make sure that teachers know that i used

    to be in their shoes if not in a

    less knowledgeable place than they're in

    you know like and i also like to model

    being a lead learner maybe i'm the

    expert in the room but i'm not the

    expert period but i can help you find

    the answer if i don't know it you know

    and then i also think getting teachers

    connected to

    other teachers whether it's in their

    school in their grade in their district

    or just who have experienced the same

    thing in a context that's relatable to

    them getting them connected so they can

    feel that support within an actual

    professional development setting norms

    of everybody is here learning we're all

    going to be vulnerable together and you

    know nobody it's a no judgment zone

    right

    nobody's going to judge you for not

    knowing all the answers even i don't

    know all the answers we're going to

    learn together so you know modeling that

    community i think is important yeah i

    like that so i want to zoom in even

    further so we were just kind of talking

    about like the structure of support or

    the framework that you might provide if

    we zoom in further and talk about the

    content so like if somebody is an

    educator maybe they've been teaching it

    for a while but they've never done cs in

    particular what advice would you give to

    them to kind of help them learn more

    about the subject area or get started

    one idea that comes to mind is like

    maybe having a conversation with that

    teacher about like tell me about

    something that is one of your favorite

    things to teach and seeing if we can tie

    in like a basic you know computational

    thinking concept to that you know like

    oh you love to teach fractions let's

    talk about how fractions are a form of

    decomposition you know and get into that

    a little bit i think that's one approach

    that could kind of help cs be more

    approachable to that teacher all right

    so i'm wondering if we can now zoom back

    out thinking really big pictures so the

    entire state of alabama so you had the

    opportunity to assist with the standards

    development there i'm wondering what's

    something that you learned through that

    experience it's a very very technical

    process

    it takes a lot of time it takes

    a lot of people but i learned when the

    state does a course of study the state

    is giving districts the what and the

    districts get to determine how they do

    it right so we give them the what which

    is the standards these are the bare

    minimum that you have to teach

    and then the district gets to determine

    you know the curriculum or how they're

    going to actually teach the standards i

    also learned like implementation rollout

    is interesting so

    it started with high school for one

    school year and then the next school

    year middle school was required and the

    next school year elementary school is

    required and they did that to help

    districts train teachers right so they

    have to have you know a cs trained

    teacher at that middle at that high

    school to be able to offer that course

    to students and same with middle and

    elementary so it's divided out to make

    it easier for the districts to digest

    and implement properly i guess

    after the standards got adopted and

    everything there's the whole committee

    like created professional development

    for districts to use to actually learn

    about the standards what they mean

    because they were so brand new

    going from technology to being computer

    science yeah lots of

    jargon and concepts that used to

    intimidate me you know so just trying to

    make that something that is attainable

    to everybody so modeling that equitable

    access yeah that was smart of the state

    to do that because it's one thing to

    just like publish a document on your

    website and say here you go figure it

    out it's another thing to actually go

    and provide some kind of support

    something else that was cool that we did

    with this course of study that's unique

    we decided since it's you know computer

    science and resources are always

    changing for that we wanted to create a

    living resource hub for the teachers in

    the state and i was able to

    co-create that with one of the other

    committee members and so it was like a

    one-stop shop of oh you're teaching this

    standard or you're trying to you know

    look for ideas for how to start

    integrating into your language arts

    block here's where you can go for that

    and then you know professional

    development

    opportunities and professional learning

    communities so all of that in a one-stop

    page it's maintained by the state now

    but i love that that's a resource that

    was created for that so i helped write

    the wyoming curriculum so i was like

    working with the three five band and

    it was an interesting process that

    created a ton of resources that they

    ended up sharing after the fact like to

    try and help support teachers and

    whatnot one of the things that i was

    constantly thinking through

    and discussing with my group was like

    the importance of language so you had

    mentioned like that you decided the what

    and the teachers decide the how like the

    districts figure out how they want to

    implement something the way that you

    craft the standards can also have that

    kind of impact so if you use language

    like

    identify x computer science concept or

    explain x computer science concept that

    gets into the how of doing something

    rather than explore x computer science

    concept and whatnot and you get to

    choose how you end up doing that but if

    you get too granular with the verbiage

    then it can be a form of colonization

    which standards as a whole are still a

    form of colonization which is something

    that i talked about in like the pedagogy

    the press podcast that i did and it was

    something that i was like constantly

    grappling with like while i see the

    value in like setting a direction and

    like highlighting some things it was

    still a form of colonizing ways of

    knowing or ways of being within the

    classroom and it wasn't until i had some

    conversations with john stapleton and

    some others like who pointed out like

    it's a beacon or a location that you can

    choose to go to or not like you don't

    necessarily have to if they are not

    mandated but i don't know if you had any

    like similar thoughts or concerns about

    like the standard process in general in

    relation to like is this a form of

    colonizing i think that's a great point

    i've never thought about it like that i

    mean that resonates with me and what you

    said about the verbiage i instantly got

    a flashback of the multiple

    conversations we had about you know

    blooms and what we can use to say we use

    construct here am i allowed to say

    create you know

    right lots of those and you can't have

    any repeat in the same grade band you

    know and i mean i would love to talk

    about that i just don't i don't really

    have any insight on you know

    colonization and standards yeah it can

    be depending on how things are

    implemented like if it was here's a

    guide not a mandate then that's very

    different than here's the thing that you

    have to do

    and you have to spend like equal time

    on each one of these standards etc like

    there's many different approaches to it

    and i've worked in districts where there

    were lesson plans that were mandated and

    you had to teach the same lesson as the

    other like 50 summit elementary schools

    on the same week and if you weren't

    you'd get written up etc but then i've

    also been in districts where it's like

    yeah create whatever you want just as

    long as kids are learning cool go for it

    so like the first one was definitely a

    form of colonization my expertise was

    not valued but then the second one like

    i thrived in that situation whereas

    other teachers were like i have no idea

    what to do i've never done programming

    i've never taught it i'm interested but

    i don't know what to do so trying to

    find that balance or at least having

    those options for specific

    teachers and communities and students

    and whatnot i think that's the key in my

    opinion how to provide support without

    mandating a form of colonization yeah i

    remember a conversation about you know

    mandating versus just having the

    standards is how are you going to

    mandate it are you going to fund it too

    yeah you know that's an equity issue as

    well what about the poor

    school district but then you have the

    super wealthy school district they're

    going to have their teachers trained and

    you know by whoever right they can get

    to come in but then what about the rural

    place that doesn't even have good wifi

    you know or how are they going to

    successfully implement in the same way

    that other people are what's interesting

    to me you said that about lesson plans

    like being scripted versus you know you

    go to another school district and you

    kind of just get here's what we want you

    to teach do it that is also something

    that i've noticed in my teaching journey

    across the spectrum i feel like the

    school where i started teaching was

    inner city and

    title one and we had to write our own

    scripted lesson plans but we had to like

    here's what i'm going to say here's what

    the kids are going to say you know and

    turn them in every week for every single

    subject all of that

    and

    then i go

    to

    a more affluent area and i'm trusted

    more as a professional to figure out

    what my kids need it's like that's

    another huge equity gap too because for

    me as a teacher i don't want to stay in

    an environment where i'm going to have

    to write a script every week for every

    subject you know right so i'm going to

    look for

    another environment that i am not

    required to do that but the reason that

    school was required to do that is

    because of failing test scores and they

    have failing test scores because they're

    not funded properly and they're not

    funded prop you know it just keeps it

    keeps going i kind of see it as like

    this unbreakable cycle or wheel i guess

    a wheel that doesn't break and i want to

    break it

    yeah that first district that i was

    describing they'd hand us like the

    curriculum that was a scripted lesson

    plan and what we were supposed to do was

    add in our transition sentences and

    highlight those like it was literally a

    script of everything that we had to say

    and what we were going to do and

    the pe department they literally had a i

    forget i think it was actually a

    cassette at the time but they had a

    recording audio recording that they'd

    hit play on their boom box and it would

    be the same delivery for everyone in the

    district and the pe's teacher's role was

    to just walk around and like assist with

    technique and whatnot but like the

    lesson was basically taught by an audio

    recording so like they even took it one

    step further in the direction of

    colonizing or oppression on it so you

    had mentioned an equity gap i'm

    wondering if we could like zoom in on

    the equity gap and specifically talk

    about

    what kind of recommendations do you have

    for teachers who are interested in

    improving equity and inclusion in cs

    education i think that you know for it

    to be equitable every kid has to be able

    to have the chance to explore it and i

    kind of think of it like dr jeff gray

    who taught me

    my very first computer science

    professional development he is part of

    the reason why i've you know got the

    computer science bug or bug bite i don't

    know he made this analogy about how

    we all know how to drive a car

    not everybody knows exactly how

    everything works under the hood but we

    have a special person who gets trained

    to do that a mechanic right but we all

    drive for the most part or know how a

    car works in general but maybe not the

    technicalities of it so i kind of feel

    like getting our students the option to

    be a driver or a mechanic you know but

    they have to be informed or have to have

    the option to explore cs to know if they

    like it enough to become a mechanic or

    if they just want to drive technology

    they consume so giving students that

    option to be not just a consumer of

    technology but a creator a producer and

    i also think including as much diversity

    as possible

    in

    cs content or in cs education so you

    know having women having people of color

    having lgbtq included into

    you know the videos you're showing your

    students about a computer scientist or

    you know researching different pioneers

    or having volunteers come in and then

    the you know teachers themselves can we

    be diverse in that too another thing i

    think is making sure that as much as

    possible the content is relative so you

    know i like to try to

    include

    real world scenarios or real world

    issues that you know real world computer

    engineers might be looking at to solve

    and letting students kind of take it and

    run with it it really gets them

    interested or you know a problem they

    might be having at home or with school

    or something like that like what can we

    do to troubleshoot that so you mentioned

    getting computer science to every grade

    level do you mean every grade level k

    through 12 or are you specifically

    focusing on like the elementary space in

    that answer i don't think it's

    unreasonable that csv in every grade

    level i think that might be something

    that is holding us back as a collective

    whole is we're not starting young enough

    right not only solidifying their

    concepts of computational thinking of

    computer science but also of themselves

    and how they perceive themselves you

    know i was trying to find before we got

    on here i was trying to find the article

    about how students like by the age of

    four i think start to

    understand who they are and like their

    strengths like i am a mathematician i am

    not a writer you know so they start to

    think about those things and then by the

    time they're in fourth grade those start

    to solidify so if we're waiting until

    middle school to introduce students to

    cs that might be too late for some of

    them to even have a even give themselves

    an opportunity to dig deep into

    see us and see if it's for them getting

    it down into kindergarten i think is

    just as important as having options for

    high schoolers yeah i like that i

    definitely agree that

    cs should be available to everyone k

    through 12. where i kind of tend to

    diverge from the field is i don't think

    any subject area should be mandatory

    like ever going back to a colonization

    standpoint it's again colonizing

    certain ways of knowing and to say you

    have to have x number of credits or a

    number of years in a subject area is

    imposing a way of thinking and being on

    people and valuing that i just disagree

    with and i know that's not a popular

    opinion but i mean i'm just sharing this

    is my honest thought if somebody wants

    to learn something and they don't have

    the knowledge of it but they have the

    desire to learn it they're going to

    figure it out they're going to learn how

    to do that thing just because they

    didn't have the prereqs to do it they'll

    invest the time if they're actually

    interested in wanting to figure

    something out with the subject area so

    from that like when people say yeah but

    what about reading what about

    mathematics if they really want to learn

    something there's a lot of studies that

    show that kids are going to learn it

    like kids are learning scientific

    knowledge and learning how to read by

    playing the pokemon card game because

    they needed to know what is super

    effective mean what are those terms

    when looking at a game and being able to

    read other opponents cards and stuff so

    there's a lot of interesting research on

    that and i try and point towards it but

    i don't know it's not a popular opinion

    among most people well i also think you

    know

    looking at how we do things out in the

    you know quote unquote real world versus

    how we do them in school

    you know i'm not taking english classes

    right now to be a computer science

    facilitator you know so

    this is what i'm interested in i'm going

    to keep digging into that and learning

    about myself i don't have somebody

    mandating to me here's what you should

    be learning right now other than the

    state making you you know do your

    ceus for to keep your license as a

    teacher but yeah like so i'm recording

    instructional videos for drumming since

    like that's my background and part of

    the process that i've been engaging in

    for more than a year has been like

    improving my editing by learning from

    other people and that didn't involve

    taking a course on it i never took a

    course on video editing i'm learning how

    to do it through a bunch of resources

    and

    if i had that opportunity to learn in

    school i probably would have done it

    that would have been cool but what you

    were saying like james paul g talks

    about this idea of like the portfolio

    selves and how everybody is getting to a

    point where individualized expertise in

    an area is so valued but we are forcing

    this generalized

    understanding across like generic

    degrees and whatnot and so a lot of

    people are graduating from high school

    or from university and they have a

    similar understanding as their peers

    because they weren't encouraged to

    develop this expertise but what

    employers are really looking for is the

    specific expertise hey we want somebody

    who is the best at social media not

    somebody who has a general understanding

    of communications we specifically want

    this thing

    not just basics yeah while we're not

    getting our kids ready for the jobs that

    are out there because they need more

    concentrated specific skill set i guess

    right and for him like having taken a

    class with him it's all about the

    lifelong learning it's the most

    important thing that you can learn in

    school is how to learn so like that's

    the thing that you absolutely need more

    than any required subject area because

    then you can learn anything as long as

    you have the motivation to do it i think

    you and i have had the conversation

    before about like why i don't have a

    master's degree you know

    what i wanted to do and become an expert

    and i never felt like i needed the

    to meet the criterion of getting a

    master's and i always worried that that

    would keep me from getting

    opportunities that my peers would get

    because they have a master's and i don't

    but i have

    the same experience if not more you know

    yeah i think i spoke with you about it

    but just to kind of share this with

    podcast listeners i

    think that

    college degrees in particular are tend

    to be overrated and i know that sounds

    weird coming from somebody who does have

    a phd like it did

    enable me to do a lot of cool things

    that i could not do without that degree

    but it doesn't mean that everyone should

    do it yes i think everyone should engage

    in lifelong learning but you don't need

    to go back and get multiple degrees and

    stuff like for a while i was debating

    should i get a cs degree because all my

    degrees in music education and then i

    was like i don't i don't need one i can

    learn all the things that i need to know

    about cs on my own or i can take like a

    course if i really want to dive deeper

    into something but it's mostly not

    as useful the hard part is okay well how

    do you assess the understanding of

    somebody in a field and again it goes

    back to like understanding the portfolio

    of what they bring to the table and

    really being able to zoom in rather than

    saying oh they have a degree in computer

    science or in music education or

    whenever so therefore they're qualified

    to do this thing well maybe i mean maybe

    not yeah no i love it like i remember

    like the focus on gpa you know like when

    was the last time somebody asked you

    what your gpa was in college like yeah

    you know or like when was the last time

    somebody was like hey what criteria did

    you meet in high school to graduate like

    tell me your courses that you had you

    know yep so it's kind of like we're

    putting all this pressure on our you

    know kids to oh you have to have all

    these things this is what people are

    gonna look for nobody cares about that

    stuff like show me your skill set

    i've had a couple of conversations with

    different middle school kids who were

    like really stressed out and they were

    like i'm getting a lot of pressure

    because

    i'm not doing as great in this class and

    i'm afraid i won't get into college

    because of it and i'm like here's a

    secret they're not going to look at your

    middle school transcripts like yes try

    hard learn as much as you can do as much

    as you can to learn everything you want

    to get out of this class and get the

    grade that you want to get but they're

    not going to look at your transcript so

    just breathe a little bit

    yeah nobody's looking at your sixth

    grade

    yeah i know some undergrads that i've

    seen they'll sometimes share their

    resumes like for when applying for jobs

    they share like the university

    supervisors like hey can you provide

    feedback on this and sometimes they

    would include like stuff like here's my

    gpa and middle schoolers like yeah the

    employers aren't going to ask for that

    it's nice that you have that information

    might be able to call and it's going to

    be like hey you remember back in the day

    yeah but yeah that's wild so

    one of the questions that i like to ask

    what do you feel is holding back

    educators and what can we do about this

    i think i kind of touched on one of them

    about assuming that kindergarten's too

    young assuming that fourth grade's too

    young to start ncs which i feel like

    there's a huge push we're starting to

    shift that perception i just want it to

    happen faster

    so getting those opportunities to

    students you know as young as

    kindergarten and not assuming that

    they're too young i mean podcast

    listeners probably know this too but you

    know you hand a two-year-old an ipad and

    they're probably gonna know what to do

    with it let's let them take it and run

    but also make them go play outside

    right i'm not saying give everybody a

    ton of screen time i just think that

    they should have that exposure to see us

    i did an interview with gail lovely who

    has done cs with pre-k and

    so if anyone hasn't listened to that yet

    i'll include that in the show notes so

    you can dive deeper into that area but

    yeah that definitely resonates i agree

    with it how do you practice or iterate

    on your own abilities either as like as

    an educator or in your own understanding

    of computer science one way i like to

    iterate on my abilities is to watch

    other people in the field so you know

    other professional development

    facilitators and you know kind of you

    know like i might hear somebody else

    explain abstraction in a way that i'm

    like ooh maybe that's more attainable

    than the example that i'm using you know

    and then having discussions with plc's

    even if it's my pocket of facilitators

    like having those discussions about how

    can we you know make this better or make

    this more equitable or make this

    different and then something that's

    hugely important to me is becoming more

    and more aware

    you know initially my perception of the

    gap in computer science was really

    limited i thought you know it's like oh

    it's just we need to get more women

    there's just more and more nuances to

    inclusion that i'm passionate about

    learning you know so

    every day is learning you know something

    you should say to be respectful or

    something you shouldn't to be inclusive

    so just trying to navigate that and keep

    that in the forefront is huge too yeah

    on the first thing that you mentioned

    with watching somebody else teach and

    learning from them it's one of the

    reasons why i started posting videos of

    my classes on my youtube channel because

    i'd present at conferences and talk

    about oh here's what it's like to

    facilitate multiple programming

    languages simultaneously and they'd be

    like yeah but what does it look like and

    so teachers would like literally come to

    my class just to observe oh that's what

    the space looks like and i realized oh i

    can start recording it and so youtube

    has like an auto blur feature for faces

    and so i'd use that function and admin

    was okay with that and i would share it

    so like hey here's a playlist of what

    like four different classes look like of

    me facilitating this just so that people

    can see oh this is how you can do more

    than one language in the same class at

    the same time i wish more teachers in

    the field will do that to share their

    practices like we have people who've won

    like the teaching excellence and

    computer science award from csta and

    infosys foundation but like what does

    that look like it's great that these

    people are awesome educators but i want

    to see them teach so i can learn from

    them and seeing it is much more powerful

    than trying to like read about it you

    know yeah i had people who won those

    awards and things like that and they

    have to like describe their classroom

    it's like how do i put that into words

    you know how do i yeah make sure that

    i'm not leaving anything out there i

    forget if it was that award or a

    different one that i won but i didn't

    have to submit any video of myself

    teaching and so it was all how well can

    you write about

    how you teach and

    i don't remember if it's that one or a

    different award but it is just

    interesting it's kind of telling of some

    teaching awards like that where it's

    like okay but what are you assessing

    because it's not teaching if you don't

    actually see them teach yeah well i

    thought of something for what kind of is

    holding us back i think that it's hard

    for teachers especially people who are

    not maybe brand new teachers fresh out

    of college because i feel like the

    pedagogy is shifting a little bit where

    we're getting our teachers to be more

    facilitators in learning instead of

    standing up at the front of the

    classroom like here's what we're doing

    here's what we're learning

    that kind of teaching where we're

    becoming facilitators and i feel like

    that's a huge part of being successful

    in computer science it's kind of like

    allowing organized chaos and that's not

    always a comfortable place for teachers

    right and allowing yourself to

    not have every single answer so i do

    think that kind of holds us back yeah i

    like that i think teachers need to get

    more comfortable with being

    uncomfortable and not knowing when i was

    in

    it was probably elementary school

    my parents had asked oh have you ever

    thought about being a teacher and i was

    like no like it seems like a boring job

    because all you do is like you have all

    the answers in your book and all you're

    doing is just like reading off the

    questions like i had this very

    simplified understanding of what it

    meant to teach as an elementary kid but

    yeah it's

    moving away from that idea and just

    going oh i don't know how to solve that

    bug let me try and figure it out with

    you or let me get back to you tomorrow

    or something yeah and i think that's

    huge for students to see modeled too you

    know like yeah like i said like lead

    learner you know you're still learning

    too with them and right you're the adult

    and you know they all think that their

    teachers are like 80 years old so it's

    like oh my god you're still learning at

    yeah so you've gone above and beyond in

    terms of you're not just doing classroom

    teaching you've done a lot of

    professional development you've done a

    lot of standards work so you've added to

    your load of just working in the

    classroom which is already hard enough

    in education i'm curious how have you

    tried to stave off the burnout that can

    come with doing so much in a difficult

    field the community is huge i mean

    staying around people that are

    passionate about the same thing that you

    are is huge because then when your

    passion is kind of like

    there's maybe is the opposite and they

    can pull you back up again so i think

    you know having people that share the

    same jam as you is important i also

    think it's huge like for me i

    love computer science i also love nature

    so like getting away from screens and

    putting my eyeballs on

    things that are not made out of metal or

    or plastic and digital that's been huge

    for me as far as avoiding burnout i also

    feel like trying to find something

    different or new

    fun to investigate i remember a couple

    years ago i was kind of like

    i mean i've never been like no about

    computer science but i was just kind of

    like eh i'm not feeling the huge gung-ho

    passion that i was feeling and i

    discovered a new accessibility tool for

    students who are visually impaired

    to be able to experience colors and that

    kind of sparked my interest again you

    know so just finding things that are

    interesting but also allowing yourself

    to take a freaking break yeah get off

    twitter for a month or

    however long you know like i mean

    sometimes it's okay to just walk away

    and it's not an easy thing to come

    across especially because i feel like in

    our society productivity is you know

    godly almost and

    breast is

    revolutionary you know and so finding

    that balance i think is important yeah

    i'm still working on that yeah

    it's a process

    so what do you wish there's more

    research on that could inform your own

    practices i would love to know more

    about like the psychology of why our

    girls are not as innately interested as

    boys seem to be and that kind of thing

    like i would love to hone in more on

    that because i feel like i've dabbled in

    that and i kind of know about it but i

    want to get deeper in on that that kind

    of thing well and why is it different in

    other locations like there's a paper

    that i did i think it was in malaysia

    and the

    numbers were flipped for male and female

    in the cs and i.t space yeah so

    it's cultural yeah like i would love to

    like study like societal trends cultural

    acceptance you know that kind of thing i

    think that's fascinating not only in our

    you know computer science field but just

    in general yeah why we do the things we

    do what's programmed in us and what's

    actually us you know yeah even you look

    at other areas that we're also in like

    education well why is it that like 80

    plus percent of teachers are white women

    right yeah i also like looking at that

    so that definitely resonates but then i

    also wonder like why is it that some get

    more attention than others like we don't

    talk about the gender issues in

    elementary teaching but we talk about it

    in computer science it's like well why

    right so then where might people go to

    connect with you and the organizations

    that you work with yeah join me on

    twitter i'm at wearing whiz kid i used

    to be wearing wiz kids when i had a

    classroom with students in it and then i

    just decided to be the one whiz kid

    but it's w-a-r-i-n-g so come join me on

    there and you know dm me if you have

    questions i'm happy to be a resource or

    be a resource to connect you with other

    resources i used to be a cs for all

    teachers community ambassador and that's

    another great little virtual community

    that you can join into so and with that

    that concludes this week's episode of

    the csk8 podcast thank you so much for

    listening if you enjoyed this episode i

    hope you consider sharing this with

    somebody else or leaving a review on

    whatever platform you're listening to

    this on stay tuned next week for another

    episode and until then i hope you're all

    staying safe and are having a wonderful

    week

Guest Bio

Ashley joins the team at BootUp with 12+ years of experience in public education as a STEM educator, CS standards developer, and creator of professional learning.

In the elementary classroom, Ashley was able to witness STEM and CS integration act as an equalizer for K-5th graders. Students who did not experience success in the traditional subjects or environments of academia soared through computational thinking activities and programming projects. Seeing the positive impacts of creating an equitable classroom environment has led her to start researching and advocating for CS access in every classroom. As the District Technology Integration Specialist for Trussville City School District, she designed and implemented professional development for teachers in the district and beyond. Ashley was one of the first Google for Education Certified Coaches and draws on that training to be an effective instructional coach and leader across disciplines. As a member of the 2018 Alabama Digital Literacy and Computer Science Course of Study (DLCS COS) Committee and Task Force, Ashley composed and delivered a presentation for the adoption of these standards to the Alabama State Board of Education. These standards were adopted in March 2018 and are being fully implemented state-wide, ensuring all students K-12 have opportunities to explore computer science. To meet the needs of teachers and provide ongoing resources for implementation, Ashley co-created a companion site for the DLCS COS that serves as a living resource for educators to find everything from professional development opportunities to classroom activities and tutorials. As a Code.org Computer Science Fundamentals Facilitator, Ashley’s had the opportunity to breach the topics of diversity and equity through the foundations of computational thinking with teachers across the state of Alabama and across the nation. She was selected to be an inaugural CS for All Teachers Community Ambassador. She organized, promoted, and facilitated international webinars on various computer science education topics ranging from access to technology to how to integrate CS in other content areas. At SAM Labs, she coordinated with district and state leaders to effectively implement solutions to meet the STEAM and coding goals of the stakeholders.

Ashley is passionate about connecting with and empowering educators to create a more engaging and equitable education journey for all students.

In the wild you can find Ashley advocating for intersectional environmentalism, sweating through a spin class or yoga session, getting messy with some abstract painting or cooking, or wrangling her cat and dog on excursions!

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