Unpacking Systems for CSforALL with Leigh Ann DeLyser

In this interview with Leigh Ann DeLyser, we discuss the purpose of CSforALL, considerations for leading people with different visions for (or interests in) CS education, the evolution and future direction of CS education, positive and negative corporate influence on education, thinking through equity from a systems perspective, and much more.

• Auto-generated transcript (click to expand)

  Welcome back to another episode of the

  CSK8 podcast my name is jared o'leary

  every monday a new episode comes out

  that's either an unpacking scholarship

  episode where i talk about education

  research in relation to cs education or

  an episode where i interview a guest or

  multiple guests in today's episode i'm

  having a conversation with leanne

  delizer from cs4all and that's f o r not

  the number in this particular interview

  we discuss the purpose for cs for all we

  also discuss considerations for leading

  people with different visions for or

  interest in cs education we discuss the

  evolution and future direction of cs

  education we chat about positive and

  negative corporate influence on

  education we also think through equity

  from a systems perspective and so much

  more we do mention many resources in

  this particular episode that are listed

  in the show notes which you can find at

  jared o'leary.com where you'll find

  hundreds if not thousands of free

  resources including a link to

  bootuppd.org which is the non-profit

  that i work for where i create 100 free

  scratch and scratch in your curricula so

  make sure you check it out if you

  haven't with that being said we will now

  begin with an introduction by leanne i'm

  leanne delizer and i am the executive

  director and co-founder here at cs4all

  which is a non-profit committed to

  systems change around computer science

  education in the united states my

  personal story is a little bit longer

  than the organization as you can imagine

  i started my career as a high school

  teacher and i taught math and a little

  bit of computer science on the side

  because the school needed me to and i

  had done that in undergrad to pay for my

  degree and eventually became the

  computer science teacher and found that

  i had a real love not only for helping

  students in my own classroom but

  providing professional support to

  teachers as well i was a college board

  provider for the advanced placement

  courses i wrote a review textbook for

  the apa course a lifetime ago

  and served on the csta's board of

  directors for a while i figured out

  after

  not too much time that there was only so

  much advocacy you could do from the

  classroom and i had the opportunity to

  go to carnegie mellon as first a

  visiting faculty member and then as a

  computer science phd student

  and did a degree in computer science and

  cognitive psychology there

  studying the effect of feedback on

  novices learning to program i left

  carnegie mellon and came to new york and

  got involved with fred wilson and csnyc

  to launch the academy for software

  engineering and build new york city's

  computer science for all program

  and in 2016 had the joy of taking that

  work on the road

  and thinking about what it meant for

  this big broad nation

  to build computer science education that

  was

  locally sourced and had real roots in

  community

  as a way to get to high quality

  implementation for every student and i'm

  so glad to be here talking with you

  today

  so i'm curious there's a philosophy that

  has kind of informed what i do it's

  called career so it's like this

  continuous self-reflection of where you

  are in comparison to where you've been

  and where you want to go

  and so one of the questions that i

  really like to ask us is what's

  something that you believe when you

  first began working in education that

  you no longer believe so when i first

  started working in education i was 20

  years old i was bright-eyed and

  bushy-tailed

  and

  i

  believed the myth of meritocracy i

  believed that all things being equal

  that

  students would embrace knowledge and

  rise to the top

  and as you can imagine

  that wasn't necessarily the case

  my first teaching job was in fort

  lauderdale florida at stranahan high

  school which was a medical science and

  engineering magnet school so about a

  third of the kids in the school were

  these magnet kids

  who had through privilege of preparation

  tested into

  this magnet program

  and the other two thirds were similar to

  what we can call new york city

  neighborhood school they were zoned for

  that school building because they lived

  within a certain mile radius of the

  building

  and

  i had in my

  very first computer applications class

  a 16 year old student and it took 9th

  grader which basically meant at that

  time in florida that he had aged out of

  middle school once you turn 16 you can't

  be in middle school anymore and so they

  have to put you in ninth grade and it

  took me about two months he would come

  to class he would stare at the walls

  i did like little daily quizzes and they

  were simple things like

  you know how do you open an application

  on the computer we're talking about

  computer applications it was really like

  you click on it with the mouse was the

  right answer all of his quizzes and

  tests would be blank

  and took me about two months to figure

  out that he couldn't read

  we're not talking about like not reading

  on grade level he couldn't sound out the

  word who and

  it really opened my eyes to

  how

  preparatory privilege colors everything

  not just the individual academic domain

  like it's not that he only did poorly in

  his english class

  here he was in my computer applications

  class where we were

  you know

  doing word processing and spreadsheets

  because he had this other

  parallel challenge it made performance

  in my class

  also really difficult for him along the

  way i'm curious like how does that

  experience inform your

  approach at cs for all like the things

  that you do just in general

  that particular experience

  and

  all of the subsequent experiences around

  it because i also taught computer

  programming at that school and i taught

  pre-calculus at that school because i

  was a math teacher

  and i had a blind student in geometry

  which was a lot of fun and i got to play

  with lots of pipe cleaners as a way to

  give him tactile representations of the

  geometric shapes

  keeps my eyes open

  to

  how the system

  of normalcy

  what we consider the average classroom

  or what is expected practice

  lets not just kids slip through the

  cracks i think that that's a very

  passive way of saying

  that we've put structural

  barriers to any kind of level of success

  across the board for kids

  and so the more i do work in computer

  science education the more i'm asking

  myself

  how are all of the other things

  contributing

  to the outcomes that we're seeing

  as opposed to only drawing a direct line

  between that piece of computer science

  instruction

  and students ability to perform well

  in the class create the program

  or even pass an ap exam so i have a

  question about those like the hegemonic

  influences like the structure of

  structures but before like we dive into

  that a little bit more i'm wondering if

  we could take a step back if you were to

  provide like a quick elevator pitch of

  what cs for all is and like what do you

  intend to have in terms of impact on the

  field like how would you describe that

  so the

  purpose and goal of cs for all really

  came out of early work at csnyc in new

  york city and in new york city csnyc was

  the original

  force behind new york city's computer

  science education efforts

  in our early stages we funded

  professional learning for teachers so we

  brought in professional learning

  partners ran pd in the summer and during

  school breaks

  and prompted then teachers to offer

  computer science classes in the

  buildings that they were working in

  and

  we asked questions how's it going is it

  working and found that the pd providers

  had gaps

  for example the teachers wished they

  focused more on assessment or that they

  did more around culturally relevant

  pedagogies

  so then we provided pd to the pd

  providers

  because we wanted our partners in new

  york city to be meeting the needs of the

  teachers and the students who are our

  ultimate constituents

  we found that administrators

  often had trouble supporting teachers

  implementing computer science if they

  were not brought in early and so we

  launched cs4 all we imagined this

  multi-sector

  collaborative

  that would support computer science

  and make the field better

  and so we don't do professional learning

  for teachers

  but we support the community of

  professional learning providers

  we help support administrator buy-in by

  raising awareness of the importance of

  computer science education

  and we connect

  the folks from all these different

  sectors together and let them talk in

  the same room

  because if we're not listening to each

  other

  we're going to keep trying to solve day

  one problems

  when the schools have moved on to day

  of like you are

  by providing pd to the people who are

  providing pd that's a way of addressing

  some of those structural issues

  how do you identify which structural

  issues to address like the challenges we

  address those structural barriers and

  challenges

  through community participation

  ceos for all believes that the landscape

  knows the best what the landscape needs

  and so we not only participate in the

  community as

  providers of

  strategic planning through our script

  workshops we also participate as

  learners we listen to

  and we use that as a way

  to initiate thematic reports for example

  we're going to come out with a report on

  career and technical education and

  computer science education in a couple

  of months

  and that really brought together a

  landscape of experts we listened to them

  we took knots of notes about what they

  said and translated that into a sector

  report with recommendations

  and so

  our strongest feature at cs4l is our

  membership

  because not only do we expect them to

  contribute to the ongoing movement of cs

  education we learn from them

  we learn from them where the successes

  are and where the gaps are as a way to

  help everyone in the community get

  better so i have some ideas like based

  on

  my understandings of different research

  methodologies and whatnot but

  how do you or does the organization

  sort through what might be a signal what

  might be noise and then what's not being

  said in the field let's be clear around

  methodologies of the difference between

  producing policy landscapes and research

  we employ for a lot of our policy papers

  kind of a delphi method where you listen

  to experts and translate

  their things into the report we're very

  transparent about who those voices are

  and on the front end we try as much as

  humanly possible to get diverse voices

  in the room to ensure that we're not

  hearing only one side of the story but

  we're just not funded a level where

  those policy reports can rise to the

  same rigor

  as a research report and so i want to be

  clear about the distinction of the two

  when we do produce research

  through our

  research line

  then

  obviously we do publications through

  sigsi and other venues and are very

  explicit about our methodology but a lot

  of our landscape and policy reports are

  much more of this like delphi study

  methodology we listen to experts

  super transparent about who those

  experts are as we write it up and build

  off of those themes yeah so speaking of

  themes i previously did a couple of

  podcast episodes that was on the visions

  framework so one of them was an

  unpacking scholarship episode where i

  just kind of talked about well what are

  the different categories within this

  how do some of them resonate with myself

  but then i also spoke with rafi and

  sarah about this as well

  but and i'll include a link to those by

  the way in the show notes if anyone

  wants to check those out but if you were

  to take the visions quiz i'm curious

  like what values and projected impacts

  will kind of resonate with you because

  from an organizational standpoint i see

  very clear examples where you're hitting

  a lot of them but i'm curious for you as

  an individual like which ones stand out

  thanks for the question so my own

  personal

  bent not only changes from year to year

  as i'm sure many people's do but sits

  pretty much at the intersection of

  equity social justice

  school reform and improvement

  and

  competencies and literacies

  i grew up in rural america in a log

  cabin my father built

  and

  my ability to be a successful

  professional whether it be a teacher

  a

  organization leader or computer

  scientist was entirely dependent upon

  me gaining the competencies and

  literacies that allowed me to take the

  jump after high school

  into undergraduate

  and if we don't provide students with

  competitive transcripts

  at all levels for all kids

  we know that it's getting increasingly

  hard to get into colleges

  especially the top tier colleges and so

  it's one more way

  that computer science education

  will become one of these differentiators

  of who had quality education and who did

  not

  and so

  for me that notion of competency and

  literacy there's the global perspective

  of like computers are all around us and

  everybody needs them

  which is super important

  but it's also an important competency to

  create

  equal access for students when they exit

  k-12 and enter the next phase of their

  college or career life so i kind of have

  like a two-parter question as a

  follow-up to that so one is like how do

  those values and impact areas kind of

  inform your own work at cs for all but

  then

  as a leader like how do you

  also encourage and support

  other people's values and impacts that

  might differ from your own within your

  organization

  there's a great article which i'll share

  with you to put on the page below about

  culturally responsive school leadership

  and

  the first tenant of culturally

  responsive school leadership so not

  teaching not pedagogy but actual like

  administrators and like leadership

  working groups in schools is critical

  self-awareness

  and so being aware of our own internal

  motivations

  is the first step towards being

  inclusive

  in allowing not only those motivations

  but others motivations to be perceived

  in the environment

  and so we do at cs for all we actually

  take the visions quiz ourselves from

  time to time in our team meetings and

  talk about what it means how it might be

  influencing our decisions our

  communications

  and where we as an inclusive

  organization

  might be like

  shifting our course slightly

  to

  our own internal biases or outcomes and

  so we try to be critically self-aware

  and i as a leader try to be critically

  self-aware

  with my own staff and for many of the

  people who've been with me in workshops

  i'm often

  very clear about defining my own

  positionality on these things

  so i will say that my background leads

  me to feel this is important because

  and that does not diminish your

  background or the reasons you bring to

  this work and in fact i say explicitly

  over and over and over again in script

  workshops that it is

  a little ridiculous

  that

  in many places my computer science

  degree

  is somehow worth more

  than the

  decades of knowledge in the school

  leaders who come to the script workshops

  about the schools and communities

  they're working in

  that knowledge of kids that knowledge of

  their own buildings that knowledge of

  their own communities is way more

  important than my knowledge of an if

  statement when it comes to implementing

  high quality computer science in their

  schools

  elevating the voices of people with less

  power or less cultural capital however

  you want to phrase this so

  as a director within the nonprofit that

  i work for

  there are

  power dynamics at play with people that

  i've supervised or people who are lower

  on the pay tier basically that's

  probably the easiest way that i can say

  it how do you

  make it so that like

  they still feel the

  opportunity and ability and that

  openness to share their thoughts and

  disagreements with you or others in the

  organization while accounting for the

  fact that like some people

  might be hesitant because they know the

  power dynamics at play i think something

  that's really important for nonprofits

  is to have a north star

  we do this work in service of the

  community we do this work in partnership

  with the community

  we do this work for the intended benefit

  of the community

  now

  it may be

  that

  someone who reports to me i mean i'm the

  executive director so someone in the

  organization

  has an idea that goes against my own

  internal feelings

  then they need to come to me and

  describe how

  what their idea is is in service of the

  community in partnership with the

  community

  or for the beneficial outcomes that are

  part of our mission and vision

  and if they can bring that to me then

  it's likely i'll bring in other team

  members we'll have a conversation if i

  have a firmly held belief

  then like a really firmly held belief

  then it's likely i'll ask for data to

  support it

  and we'll make a data informed decision

  about what to do next

  but

  i think there's this

  notion in

  academic spaces that questioning is good

  and i think that can be healthy like how

  do we question each other and bring

  diverse perspectives

  but in an organization

  there needs to be some kind of structure

  right right

  i am

  accountable to our board members

  to our donors to ensure that we are

  responsible with the funds that we're

  given that we meet our mission

  and that

  the things we do

  fit a whole series of checklists right

  of things you have to do as an

  organization leader and holder of the

  budget

  and so

  i used to grade advanced placement exams

  and

  when i was a reader not a question

  leader

  i would say to my question leaders that

  i'm going to ask you a lot of questions

  i am going to ask all kinds of questions

  about the rubric i'm going to bring up

  weird cases i'm going to push around the

  edges and it's really to help me

  understand

  both where this is firm and where it's

  adjustable and why why did we choose to

  give this half point here and not here

  if we ever get to a point where

  the questions are just ridiculous or you

  don't see them as adding benefit

  just tell me because i am your question

  leader and i say so and i will stop

  and i think there's a time where

  sometimes an organizational leader has

  to say

  because this is why the money was given

  to us

  and we have a responsibility to enact

  this in the way that the donor has

  agreed upon with us in a contract we

  made six months ago or

  out in the national community right i

  can argue as much as i want with the

  broad community about different

  approaches to computer science education

  or

  the value of orientation pd in excess to

  the absence of second level professional

  learning or pathways for teacher mastery

  but it's not my job to make a decision

  for their organization the best thing i

  can do is bring my ideas support them

  with evidence and data and you know we

  go in front of funders and make our

  pitches

  and let the support flow to the places

  that are perceived to have the most need

  and best evidence of possibility yeah i

  really appreciate that response it

  definitely resonates with a lot of

  things that i believe in and have tried

  and continued to try and whatnot like

  education is very gray like there's no

  black and white in terms of like right

  and wrong answers for a lot of research

  you can find contradictory research like

  at the time of this recording i think

  it's coming out this upcoming monday

  there's an episode that i'm unpacking

  some scholarship and saying this

  contradicts a previous paper that i

  talked about on this podcast and it

  would be interesting to have the authors

  from both those papers get together and

  have a conversation about it because

  there's many different ways to do it but

  ultimately having a north star that kind

  of guides well which one do you choose

  and align with that totally makes sense

  to me and in the world of education too

  it's not only that it's black and white

  it's black and white and regionally

  defined so

  many people who've you know interfaced

  with me in the past in research circles

  know that one of the horses i ride all

  the time is that there's no such thing

  as a valid instrument

  we have instruments with evidence of

  validity

  in a particular place for a particular

  student population at a particular time

  and context and so

  when we bring forth these absolutes

  it's almost like saying this program has

  validity

  which we know isn't true and it's that's

  one of the tenets that see us for all

  and it's one of the reasons why script

  is not a checklist

  it's meant to be a continuous

  improvement process where we set a north

  star for districts

  and they build the solutions that move

  their student population closer to that

  north star

  so how do we create this

  environment this atmosphere and

  education where there aren't to your

  point absolutes

  but instead we're working to the benefit

  of students

  we have agreed upon goals

  to the best of our ability we measure

  our progress to those goals over time

  and let the really smart professionals

  who know those kids well and see them

  every day

  come up with those solutions that they

  iterate upon and improve upon over time

  so correct me if this is not a great

  example of a summary of it but script

  is basically a way to help districts

  think through their own implementation

  kind of come up with

  their plan think through

  okay well what do we need to do from

  administrative support community support

  teacher support et cetera and

  not being a script facilitator it comes

  across as like a heuristic a tool to

  think with not necessarily giving you

  a well-worn path to go down and that's

  the only way to go down it like but

  instead of presenting multiple

  perspectives and many different

  questions to think through and i don't

  know if that resonates with like the

  original intent behind scripts a

  thousand percent yes

  in fact my favorite part of script

  workshops is actually like drifting

  through tables as teams are working and

  they'll get to the point where they're

  reading one of the rubric robos

  and talking about whether they're

  emerging or developing

  and one school administrator will say oh

  i think we're emerging because we have x

  y and z and the teacher will say no

  we're developing because in addition to

  x y and z we have these other things you

  don't know about

  and then the administrator go well well

  there's this word here that doesn't

  quite meet what you described and

  they're starting to talk about the

  nuance of their own particular

  circumstance

  and then when they get to the end of the

  workshop they've taken all of those

  nuances all those individual goals and

  they do priority setting what's a

  priority for us

  what strengths do we have to build on

  right now and how can we build on those

  strengths to take a next step and that's

  what we really encourage districts to do

  in the script process not think about it

  from a deficit model

  but think about it from a landscaping

  and strength-based perspective as a way

  to build momentum

  because all of education is a work in

  progress

  nobody's got it right

  at the moment no matter what kind of

  education you do and so acknowledging

  that

  and thinking about computer science

  education the same way it's not that

  somehow we're going to take three steps

  and be done

  we're going to get on a path of

  iterative refinement and improvement and

  we want to build that routine

  where we're questioning whether or not

  the choices we're making

  are truly serving all of our students

  whether the policies we're enacting are

  having equitable outcomes whether

  there's a gap that emerges and needs

  closing or whether there's a gap that

  has come before our work that needs

  closing all in service of giving kids

  the best we possibly can now if we were

  to zoom out onto cs4 like as a whole

  what do you wish people

  knew or understood about the

  organization i think the biggest thing

  that i wish people knew

  about cs4 all

  was

  that

  we

  explicitly work in service of the

  community

  our goal is to raise awareness of the

  need for computer science education

  to support

  people being welcoming to

  all of the different providers that are

  out there the initiatives that teachers

  spin up right

  we build capacity so we want to resource

  the local leaders the organizations on

  the ground

  and really support them

  all of it in service of making change

  for kids

  and so we want to be

  your partner in the work

  when we launched cs4 all i found that

  many of my friends and jared you know

  i've been in this community for a long

  time

  a lot of people knew me when i was a

  graduate student

  my friends would call me and be like hey

  leanne and thinking about this thing can

  we just talk through it what do you know

  what are some good resources right we

  all have friends who do this to us

  and right away we noticed that that

  meant that certain members of our

  community got an outsized chunk of our

  time because they were willing to reach

  out to us and so we created a program at

  cs4 called office hours which still

  persists to this day

  where anyone can call and request an

  office hour and you don't have to have a

  reason for doing it you can simply like

  want to think through your

  implementation or program and

  we'll give you an hour of our time it'll

  probably be virtual and it was virtual

  long before the pandemic but it was a

  way for us to be a partner to the

  community and really support the work of

  the community overall i didn't know that

  existed i love that i might have to try

  and implement it at boot up what's

  something that has surprised you about

  either

  your time with cs for all or with csnyc

  i had a lot of imposter syndrome

  when i came into this space

  i used to describe myself as just a high

  school teacher

  and

  over time realized that my own privilege

  of preparation at carnegie mellon

  set me up to understand research really

  well

  and that my own background in education

  having been a teacher

  a

  you know participant in policy

  initiatives an interested consumer of

  all things education and education

  policy

  meant that i had insight

  and then finally

  as a white woman that my voice

  could be useful in advocating for equity

  even though my own lived experiences

  were not the same as many of the

  students i was serving in new york city

  and so overcoming that imposter syndrome

  and

  really

  believing that not only did i not sit

  quietly in rooms but there was value in

  me speaking up in those rooms was

  something that i had to learn over time

  yeah that definitely resonates like

  because all my degrees are music

  education i came into this with that

  imposter syndrome because music in

  particular

  is very territorial and the field as a

  whole like if you don't have degrees in

  music performance or music education

  they're kind of like well why are you

  teaching that thing like you're not good

  enough it's very exclusionary and

  deficit based but i found at least from

  my experiences that the cs ed community

  is different it is very much so strength

  based in terms of

  looking at an individual and going cool

  you have a different perspective to

  bring to the table let's chat about that

  not oh you don't have a degree in cs so

  therefore i don't have to listen to you

  so kudos to you field of computer

  science education i actually enjoyed it

  so zooming out even more how has cs

  education evolved over the past decade

  and where do you think it's going i

  remember

  walking into the first advisory board

  meeting at the academy for software

  engineering in new york and

  we're in one of the big rooms in tweed

  which is the department of education

  building in manhattan which is an old

  courthouse

  so picture these big beautiful old

  courtrooms there is a conference table

  like this beautiful mahogany conference

  table

  down the middle of the room

  and on half of the table are the

  computer scientists the googlers the

  facebookers the vcs right fred wilson

  evan korth from nyu

  and on the other half of the table

  basically are the doe folks and we're

  trying to imagine a new high school

  focused on computer science education

  and this work really you know there's a

  lot of credit that has to go to mike

  zamanski for standing up and saying we

  need

  computer science themed schools in new

  york city at that time

  and the computer scientists on one side

  were almost adamant

  that they wanted to make more stuyvesant

  and bronx science students

  this needed to be a selective high

  school where you have to pass a test to

  get into

  and if you know anything at all i knew

  about new york city public schools that

  that is super controversial and not at

  all equitable across the city so on the

  other side you have the doe folks like

  no this will be a non-selective high

  school this will be a school that any

  kid can get into and it will be a

  lottery admission process

  and you can imagine the rift

  in the middle of the table like

  is this even possible

  there was a lot of back and forth about

  how much computer science is rocket

  science

  is could an average new york city public

  school student in ninth grade even

  engage in a meaningful way

  with computer science education

  activities that weren't like word and

  powerpoint

  and

  telling that story now to you i think

  and to your listeners

  they're all shaking their head going

  they were so wrong

  and that's what we've done in the last

  decade we've moved computer science from

  a post-secondary rocket science

  into

  the possibility of age-appropriate

  instruction

  and fundamental principles that can be

  learned by any student

  and that i think is the biggest thing

  in the last decade is just that shift

  that there is computer science that you

  can do in third grade with every third

  grader and where do you see it going

  over the next decade we spent the last

  decade really thinking about

  how to make

  the concepts of computer science

  accessible what is it that we can do in

  third grade or fifth grade or eighth

  grade or ninth grade as a part of a

  preparation pathway

  and how do we get kids who whether

  they've had no experience or at all or

  some experience into activities that

  engage and accept them that's good what

  i'm hoping for in the next decade is we

  really think about progressions of

  learning how do we not just have your

  first experience in second grade and

  then your first experience in third

  grade and oh by the way welcome to fifth

  grade this is an if statement thank you

  for coming to computer science and then

  we get to seventh grade and welcome to

  your first computer science course it's

  going to be great because we're going to

  use scratch right and then we get to

  computer science that literally is a

  rehashing of something that student has

  done since third grade

  right so how do we really get to a point

  and this is where the systems come in

  because you can't get to coherent

  sequences

  until the whole system agrees

  that students need pieces of this along

  the way and so i think we get to the

  point of coherent pathways

  for students that allow them to get to

  sophistication of knowledge that is age

  appropriate

  and then what's really exciting is we

  can start to bring in some of the funky

  things we can really throw at them well

  here are some of the biggest problems in

  the world

  how does technology contribute to those

  problems and what might you imagine or

  design at this point in your learning

  journey in order to address those

  problems

  and maybe that means

  in

  third grade

  students are creating a fun cute little

  game about what gets recycled and what

  doesn't

  and in fifth grade they're thinking

  about collecting data from local streams

  outside their school like they're doing

  in ithaca new york to monitor pollution

  and by the time they get to high school

  they're thinking about

  apps or

  other intelligent

  ways

  to not only collect the data but use the

  data to predict

  what seasons does pollution occur and

  when would be the best time to schedule

  community cleanup efforts

  then maybe by the time they're getting

  to college

  they're really thinking about the

  intersection of all of that with

  behavioral science with marketing with

  business models

  with everything under the sun in order

  to make a technologically not only

  literate

  a competent generation of problem

  solvers that'll move our world forward

  together yeah many snaps for that answer

  that definitely

  makes a lot of sense to me especially

  because of all the bottom-up efforts

  that are going on like with the

  non-profit that i'm at like we focused

  on elementary school and so because kids

  are now potentially if it's like a

  kasich school they might have seven

  years of going through cs that means

  that the middle school and the high

  school who previously could assume oh

  they probably don't have experience with

  it they're gonna have to completely

  change what they're doing and that's

  gonna make it so that by the time a

  student goes from kindergarten all the

  way through 12th grade if they

  potentially have 13 years of cs

  experience like the level of depth that

  you can get with that is just phenomenal

  but one of the problems that i at least

  had in my districts was they were highly

  nomadic in that people were constantly

  coming in and out of the district and

  the schools

  which is why like i've argued in other

  podcasts like the rhizomatic learning

  episode that you gotta have multiple

  entry points and pathways that students

  can take that allows them to go at their

  own pace along a path that makes sense

  for them and their own interests i'm

  curious

  about your perspectives on like the

  corporate influence so you mentioned

  like the table with like a bunch of like

  tech people and then we have educators

  and there's this tendency especially in

  like the neoliberal culture for the

  corporate influence to say well we're

  providing the money so therefore we set

  the direction and the tone but because

  your organization has cs for all

  those

  interests of every student aren't likely

  going to align with the people who are

  providing the funding in terms of what

  we want future

  people to work for us

  but kids who are taking it are like cool

  cs is awesome but i don't plan on

  getting a degree with that it's on

  strong teachers and school leaders to

  advocate for their students it's on

  strong non-profit leaders to advocate

  for their theories of change but it's

  also on corporations

  to be clear about what their needs are

  because

  if

  for some reason

  we produced an educational system

  that did not produce enough computer

  scientists

  that actually would be detrimental to

  the communities we're also trying to

  serve

  right there is a part of a global view

  of outcome where some percentage of the

  population

  and from my point of view a very diverse

  percentage of the population should be

  engaged in

  the creation of the technology we all

  live on

  so

  i think

  finding the intersection

  of those needs and values

  is something we try to do at cs for all

  and part of that is when i said early on

  i introduced how we came to be as an

  organization this notion of

  bringing together the school districts

  the researchers the curriculum providers

  the funders

  right those corporate folks who are

  bringing computer science education to

  communities either through volunteerism

  corporate support

  dollars or other means

  then

  right if we're all listening to each

  other

  then it's more likely our goals will be

  aligned

  than if we're operating in silos

  and the only person that each silo hears

  is the person who's trying to pitch them

  to buy something or give them money yeah

  that's a great point i want better

  educated funders

  i want corporate america to be better

  educated about what schools look like

  and what they need

  i want corporate america to be better

  educated about the problems schools can

  solve on their own

  because administrators and teachers are

  some of the best problem solvers on the

  planet

  so that they if they invest money they

  invest things in the challenges that

  schools can't solve on their own so on

  your twitter bio you mentioned that

  you're an advocate for

  education reform if i were to give you

  like a magic wand and you could just

  wave it and make one change that had an

  impact on educational reform what would

  you make for that change and why jared

  did you read my syllabus when i was

  teaching intro to csa at nyu so there

  would be this pair of assignments i

  would give my students and these were

  undergraduates or graduates preparing

  for a minor in computer science

  education this was like the first course

  in the sequence and i would first tell

  them that they were king of the world

  and they could do whatever they want by

  decree

  and so they'd go away in like a half an

  hour and they all like come out with

  these things and in pairs and they come

  back and present their ideas and then i

  said great

  welcome to the world you have five

  thousand dollars what would you do with

  five thousand dollars because we live in

  this world of magic wands and

  constraints right so if i had a magic

  wand

  i would

  create a world where the systems never

  underestimate any student that's in them

  where

  the pathways in front of every single

  child were

  created in a way to help that child live

  up to their full potential no matter

  what zip code they're in the color of

  the skin

  whether they identify as male female or

  something else entirely

  so often

  we underestimate

  the youth in front of us

  so if i could wave a magic wand i would

  simply want us to create

  systems that allow

  the youth to get to the biggest

  potential they could possibly have i

  like that answer thank you

  i'm a dreamer if nothing else

  what recommendations do you have for

  improving equity and inclusion in cs

  education we value what we measure and

  we measure what we value we have to

  measure it

  and we have to be clear about what we're

  measuring and so at cs for all we have

  lately started using the cape framework

  from ut austin

  so capacity access participation

  experience

  as a way to truly disaggregate

  what we're thinking about when we talk

  about equity in education

  because if we're only looking at

  participation rates

  then we're not getting the whole story

  we launched the academy for software

  engineering in new york city

  that year in 2012 all of new york state

  only two black girls took the advanced

  placement exam

  that's in a city

  with over 400 000 black girls in the

  city and we're talking about the entire

  state too

  past the computer science exam

  the only exam that was more difficult

  for black students than computer science

  that year was chinese language and

  culture

  so the score gap between black students

  and their white peers was so large that

  black students did better in every other

  subject than computer science a we have

  to look at that

  and then we have to not blame that on

  the student

  that's not a call

  to remediate

  another kit

  that is systemic and structural barriers

  that prevent

  an entire student population from being

  successful

  in that particular bank

  and so

  i think if we're talking about improving

  equity and inclusion there are a million

  things we can do

  at each individual level to improve

  but most important from my perspective

  is we have to be clear

  about what we value

  we have to measure it

  in detail

  and then we have to be clear with

  ourselves when our measurement falls

  short

  we can't just look at the gaps we have

  to close them as structural gaps

  not one student at a time yeah and i'll

  make sure to include in the show notes

  some links to other podcasts that i've

  done that specifically talk about some

  of the gaps like whether it's in

  representation of the lack of diversity

  in teachers or the lack of diversity in

  curriculum materials et cetera so i'll

  make sure to link to those and we've

  learned in computer science education

  that the adage if you build it they will

  come

  simply refers to more of the students

  who are already there so how do you

  iterate or practice to refine your own

  abilities either as like an educator as

  a researcher or

  executive director this is going to be a

  super nerdy answer

  i consume as much as i possibly can and

  so right here on the corner of my desk i

  have two books

  you asked about as an executive director

  leader so social startup success

  and act like a leader thinks like a

  leader which are two of my current reads

  for myself in terms of growing as a

  leader of an org

  in the

  file next to them is beyond marginality

  which i highly recommend for your

  research leader audience so this is

  beyond marginality understanding the

  intersection of race ethnicity gender

  and difference in educational leadership

  research by elizabeth murakami and holly

  mackey and it is a collection of

  articles

  by

  researchers outside of

  the mainstream ethnicities and race and

  so black researchers hispanic

  researchers indigenous researchers who

  speak about the way our

  methods and approaches and assumptions

  in mainstream research actually

  disadvantage those populations from

  truly telling their stories and having

  research outcomes that are reflective of

  ground truth so i consume as much as i

  possibly can and i

  try as much as possible to participate

  in the cs education community as a

  community member to really hold true to

  that notion that cs4 was created for us

  to listen to each other and so how am i

  listening

  while still at the helm of us as an

  organization so with that listening

  though can come

  some burnout whether it's from hearing

  all of the negative things that are

  going on and not being able to do much

  to assist with that but also just the

  general demands

  working as an executive director working

  in the field of education etc i'm

  curious how do you try and prevent that

  burnout that can come with

  that openness and willingness to listen

  and engage in difficult conversations

  it helps to be an internal optimist

  i joke that i'm a glass of quarter full

  kind of girl i often surprise

  taxi drivers when i got off of airplanes

  because they're expecting like grumpy

  travel passenger and i'm like it's a

  great day and they're like what

  why

  huh and i'm like it is highly improbable

  that any day will be the worst day in

  real life

  you only get one of those but you get a

  whole lot of dates

  and so every day holds promise

  and while i recognize that in the

  current place i am in my life there's a

  lot of privilege to support that growing

  up i was a foster child for a short

  while

  and

  that has really grounded in me to take

  the things around me that are good the

  progress that we make every day

  and value it

  that doesn't mean you don't strive

  harder to keep making change but it does

  mean you value the small things and the

  small wins along the way and i think

  that is

  cored of who i am as an individual

  and

  i also need to credit a little bit of my

  house crew

  so for those of you who know me on

  social media you may have seen at the

  last 60 and the last csta

  i found places where i could go with

  maya israel and diane levitt we're both

  not only academic colleagues but good

  friends and we literally retreated to a

  house together

  because when you're listening in

  isolation to that stew of community that

  you've talked about those negative

  messages when you don't have anybody

  around you to unpack them can be

  dangerous

  and so how do we find

  not only our

  allies but also the folks that you can

  be vulnerable with how do you say like i

  didn't understand that to someone who's

  not going to judge you for it

  talk through it

  be able to say like i don't have the

  right language around this yet

  but i am thinking about this from this

  way

  over the last year i've developed a lot

  of worked really hard to try and develop

  improvement in my own language

  about how i

  refer to black indigenous and hispanic

  people

  how to be

  more

  thoughtful

  in the way that i engage other audiences

  and people whose life experiences is

  different from my own and i'm not there

  yet

  i'm still working on it but it's really

  really helpful to me to have someone who

  i trust where i can try things

  and they'll tell me like no

  you don't want to go that's not right

  and at the same time to wander in that

  space together to think through like

  what are our goals for the world and

  how do we get there or

  maybe that's not the right

  particular compass direction anymore we

  have to go one degree to the left but

  having those sounding boards

  who understand enough about your

  professional domain not just your

  personal one that you can live in that

  camaraderie is really important yeah

  that's great that you have that

  opportunity to do that

  for myself like this last year

  it's been a lot of listening to

  perspectives that i know in advance of

  that i'm going to disagree with and

  actively sitting to try and understand

  why is it that you think that way and

  where do we align and where do we

  diverge

  and how can we engage in a respectful

  dialogue through that and there's been a

  lot of successes and failures along it

  so it's definitely an iterative process

  for myself but i appreciate you sharing

  that idea i'm gonna have to actively

  seek out some individuals that i can use

  as a sounding board as well a few years

  ago i went to a grace hopper conference

  and i attended a session about creating

  your own personal board of directors

  and thinking about the roles of the

  people in your life who support your

  ability to be vulnerable and develop as

  a human and a professional

  and i've always thought about how do i

  bring that into my life into my work

  into my projects how can i be that

  person for other people whether it's

  mentoring someone on my team or

  providing an interview to a new graduate

  student

  trying to live in that give and take can

  be really important in

  you know going back to that eternal

  optimist

  seeing things

  move forward whether it be

  one person at a time one school system

  at a time one state at a time one policy

  at a time

  one crazy funder at a time

  oh what do you wish there was more

  research on that could inform your own

  practices computer scientists are

  problem solvers so we jump in and solve

  the problems

  and we heard

  five to seven years ago that teachers

  were the problem

  they were the missing widget

  needed more teachers

  and so we spun up an entire community to

  produce more computer science teachers

  and along with that more curriculum

  right more supports for teachers all

  that kind of stuff

  we haven't really done

  computer science education research that

  exists in the field of educational

  leadership

  and educational policy

  because those teachers in those

  classrooms

  don't operate in a vacuum

  because we've been hyper focused on

  teachers and because our community

  started with a bunch of teacher leaders

  we've been hyper focused on teacher

  leadership and i know jake baskin shares

  this opinion that sometimes we ask too

  much of teachers

  if a teacher

  is fighting for equitable implementation

  of computer science education in their

  classroom or building

  and a significant portion of their job

  is getting over the roadblocks that are

  in their way what we really need is

  research and how to get rid of the

  roadblocks

  not how to make the teacher better so

  they can jump higher

  so i look forward to emerging research

  which i know is coming and i know that

  different folks are starting to really

  work on this notion of what is the role

  of school administrators in supporting

  equitable implementations of computer

  science education

  what is the role of policy and how does

  it have an impact on

  the outcomes that we see at the student

  level and where does that policy have

  unintended consequences so josh childs

  who's one of the co-leads of the esop

  alliance has done great work in

  unintended consequences of policy he's

  really starting to think about that from

  a computer science education policy

  perspective

  and i think we sometimes treat our

  education systems a little too

  simplistically we have all of this

  amazing computational power in the world

  right now

  be able to model complex systems

  all of the things between that

  youth

  and the computer science learning that

  they're getting they are wrapped in so

  many onion levels

  we

  can model that

  and we can truly understand

  what are some of the systemic barriers

  what are some of the things that we're

  seeing in every community across america

  that are making girls less likely to

  participate in computer science than

  boys

  right

  that's not a one by one thing like

  that's happening everywhere

  and we're imagining solutions and we're

  creating opportunities for teachers to

  jump a little bit higher to get more

  girls involved

  or for schools to jump a little bit

  higher to get more girls involved

  but we still haven't been able to fix

  the problem

  which tells me it's still a barrier and

  a jumping problem

  right

  so i really look forward to us treating

  the complexity of the educational system

  as a complex system

  and not as an opportunity to

  fix one classroom or one student at a

  time

  i appreciate the nuances that you shared

  in that answer so

  what's something that you're currently

  working on that you could use some

  assistance with

  we're currently working in partnership

  with the office of science and

  technology policy and the national ai

  initiative

  to think about artificial intelligence

  and data science education

  and we have a project with the air force

  and soon to be marines for

  junior rotc to think about cyber

  security education

  and

  you know computer science as a field is

  kind of entering its teenage years it's

  late teenage years

  right

  it's discovered there's a big huge world

  out there

  it's it's trying to get its own sense of

  fashion

  like what is it and what does it do

  it's realizing that its actions have

  implications bigger than itself yep

  and it's testing out lots of little

  different subfields

  right totally an older teenager right

  and

  that's rolling down into k-12 so when we

  started imagining the k-12 computer

  science framework and the csta standards

  in their last rewrite we were focused

  very much on

  the legacy of algorithmic programming

  with a smattering of things around it

  including like social impacts

  networks in the internet all that kind

  of stuff what we're starting to see is

  increasing demand for just as the

  sophistication of algorithmic thinking

  and computational thinking has made its

  way into lower grades there's increasing

  pressure to give students

  all the flavors of that

  as a part of engaging them in and how

  this is applied right and all the

  subfields of computer science so what i

  would love is i would love for our

  community to share with us great

  examples of what that looks like

  does cyber security education have to be

  cyber security education in stand-alone

  structured coursework

  or

  is it flavors that can be explored

  through

  a broad approach to computer science

  education right

  right cs4 all has a curriculum portal

  we invite our members to submit those

  curricular examples so that we can get a

  landscape of what's happening on the

  ground and be able to tell the story of

  how it's happening in the field

  and

  for the researchers and

  leaders out there who listen to your

  broadcast what does it mean for the way

  that we're talking to policymakers and

  school leaders

  do they now have to add cyber security

  to every student's learning trajectory

  do they now have to add artificial

  intelligence to every student's learning

  trajectory they have to add data clients

  to every student's learning trajectory

  is machine learning the next thing you

  know

  go down the list right as we're growing

  up

  and as we're getting to this broad thing

  are we going to be like the sciences

  where you study biology for you're in

  chemistry for a year in physics for you

  do we keep them siloed

  or is it going to be like the old school

  computer applications where you would

  loop through word processing and

  powerpoint and spreadsheets but you

  would loop through them based upon

  whatever problem you were trying to

  solve in the moment or whatever task

  you're trying to do in the course

  so we need to understand

  how that's being implemented on the

  ground what successes people are having

  creative things

  teachers and curriculum providers are

  trying to do so that we can really think

  about when we're talking to policymakers

  we're working with the white house for

  making recommendations for

  what kind of curriculum should be

  supported by funders who are part of our

  collective

  like what's working what are teachers

  seeing

  i've been out of the classroom for long

  enough that i don't feel like i have the

  right knowledge for what the answer that

  question is

  we'd love to hear from all of you about

  how you're addressing all these

  different flavors of computer science

  education i invite

  community members to write for a medium

  send us an email info cs4l.org and

  say hey i want to write an article about

  and we'll reach out to you and see if

  you know there's a favorite lesson you

  want to share if there's a unit you're

  doing if there's something interesting

  you're doing and we'd love to feature

  that excellent answer yeah the siloing

  that's going on within the silo is

  interesting to kind of witness it's

  exhausting

  yeah fortunately it's not happening as

  much in the elementary space but i do

  start to see it like creep down it's

  like definitely in the high school realm

  and obviously undergrad and grad

  students but it's starting to happen in

  middle schools but not so much yet in

  elementary give it time

  do you have questions for myself or for

  the field you know jared i think you

  asked me so many great questions and

  i might flip one back on you

  you're a member of the cs4l community

  how are we doing as an organization so

  from an outside perspective

  there are two

  main areas that i see working really

  well with cs4

  one is

  the ability to connect others whether

  it's through the summit or

  through

  the

  commitments and then sharing that

  across the community or through the

  website

  the other area

  is highlighting

  [Music]

  either

  resources or

  organizations or people or even ideas

  that can help kind of

  guide individuals down a pathway

  whether it's like creating like the

  scripts to help

  think through a heuristic to figure out

  implementation or the visions to help

  figure out

  what direction do we want to go in and

  why what is the purpose of this

  so for me i see those as two invaluable

  things that the organization does really

  well from my outside perspective

  so i don't know if that answers your

  question fully but like

  as an organization

  i'm glad we have that because we have

  like code.org is really good at

  getting

  policymakers involved in some way

  getting

  action and change to happen within

  states and then providing like the

  support whether it's through curriculum

  or workshops or whatever to just get

  teachers introduced to it and so like

  that organization is great for that but

  what i see cs4 all really doing well is

  the connection and then highlighting and

  providing resources that really help

  dive deeper

  rather than just kind of like some of

  the more surface level things that i see

  in other organizations that doesn't mean

  code.org i just mean other organizations

  in general we all have a role to play in

  this landscape right there's plenty of

  work to go around

  there's too much work for any one org to

  do at all

  we need

  different organizations focusing on

  different pieces of the work in order to

  get to the kind of quality we all hope

  and dream for for kids and i would be

  remiss if i didn't mention if your

  listeners don't know about the summit or

  the commitments we have a website

  summit.cs4all.org and there's a

  beautiful commitments visual that's

  relatively new where you can actually

  search over the last four years this is

  going to be our fifth year of collecting

  commitments look at commitments by state

  by organization by year all kinds of

  different ways for you to see

  how computer science education has

  emerged in your own state or community

  and what the trajectory of that's been

  like over the last four years

  when we host our summit in october we'll

  release the fifth year of commitment

  data and we're going to celebrate a

  little bit of this year five years of

  progress in the community yeah i know

  because like having worked as a

  specialist in different subject areas in

  schools there's like this tendency to

  feel isolated because you're like

  sometimes literally the only teacher in

  your school doing a particular subject

  so i see

  the commitments in particular

  as a way like it was kind of equivalent

  to like having a plc in my district so

  like oh i'm actually getting together

  with other people who do this thing and

  we can engage in conversations and go oh

  you're doing that cool well i'm doing

  this thing and from an organizational

  standpoint the commitments like serve as

  at us like hey i didn't realize you were

  doing these awesome things

  check out what we're doing maybe we can

  collaborate in some kind of a way and

  that's you know one of the reasons

  behind them and it goes back to like our

  original intent which was to bring the

  community together and get them to hear

  what each other is doing and listen to

  each other so i'm glad that they are

  working in that way for you and it means

  that we're hopefully living our mission

  a little bit are there any questions

  that i haven't asked that you want to

  discuss i think we've talked a lot about

  equity and inclusion and if we're going

  to really count this as

  like not just an entry-level course

  like everybody has their own definition

  of equity right and it at cs for all

  we're working really hard to think about

  what does it truly mean

  to serve

  student populations with equity and when

  we talk about it from a research

  standpoint or an enacting word

  standpoint so think about it like a

  school district or a curriculum provider

  we tend to think about the momentary

  countables

  how many students are in the room

  what is the color of their skin and the

  shape of their butt

  right

  and how does that represent the general

  overall population but education

  for youth

  isn't

  these isolated standalone experiences

  they are

  stackable and parallel and happen in a

  whole bunch of different ways

  and so we're really thinking about

  equity from a standpoint not only of

  the

  data you collect at the moment but how

  do you look at it from that 360 view of

  a child

  so i live outside of new york city in

  westchester county there is no doubt

  that my community has

  more privilege than others

  and

  my daughter

  if i look at her ecosystem

  she not only gets an hour of computer

  science a week in her school

  it's one of the specials in her

  elementary school she's going into third

  grade she also has access to i think

  right now it's like seven different

  out of school or after school programs

  that involve computing or stem in some

  way

  there's a robotics program

  there's a coding program there's a lego

  encoding program

  the local library has something once a

  month

  the town rec center has something

  right so there's so many things that she

  can choose from based on her individual

  interest

  right which means that she's probably

  gonna find something if she chooses to

  go that way

  that will continue to develop that

  interest into long-term interest because

  she was excited and engaged in that

  moment

  if we look at other communities it might

  be that they

  maybe they have that fundamental

  standards complete learning pathway in

  the school

  but then there's only one opportunity

  for a kid to go deeper right right one

  after school program or one weekend

  activity or one thing at the library and

  so how do we

  look at equity from the perspective of

  that full wrap around on a student do

  they both have that standards complete

  minimum bar pathway that we think is

  important for every child

  and

  the suite of opportunities that will let

  them build off of their personal

  interests

  to develop a deeper interest

  and find computing or computational

  thinking

  intersects with their own worldview

  and the things they want to keep doing

  and so we're really trying to think

  about equity

  both from a

  instantaneous measure of participation

  and from an individual student 360 view

  how are we supporting that child so that

  they can access all of those

  opportunities so that their community

  has all of that around them so that the

  parent

  knows enough to broker for them as our

  colleague rafi likes to talk about

  into those activities and help them

  guide through that pathway so that when

  they get to high school and there's a

  choice of whether they want to try the

  ap class or not or go into a career and

  technical education program or take a

  digital art elective they can make that

  decision with information and then use

  that again

  at that next brokering point when they

  go into college

  make a decision about how computer

  science can impact their lives and we

  talk about

  helping students get over the hump right

  the drop withdrawal fail rate a

  university for computer science majors

  disproportionately affects women

  and is significantly higher than many of

  the other degree granting programs and

  institutions

  so if the cs1 and two courses

  are hard

  and

  are not disconnected from the real world

  ways that computer science can impact

  the world

  how do we best prepare a student with

  enough intrinsic motivation to persist

  through those

  because they've been able to experience

  that

  pathway and sweet and opportunities that

  allow them to persist and have success

  in later life

  so for us equity involves

  really

  not only that instantaneous view

  but all of that surrounding things

  around a child how do we make an

  equitable ecosystem

  from community to community so that your

  zip code doesn't determine your

  opportunity yeah and to build off of

  that i mentioned in an episode where i

  talked about candice erickson's

  discussion of expertise and skill

  advocates acquisition which was like

  what malcolm gladwell basically cited to

  come up with the ten thousand hour rule

  which isn't actually a rule if you

  actually read the research but

  like

  once we get

  the

  floor to the point where everybody has

  opportunity to do it in cs in a school

  awesome but like you mentioned some

  schools then have after school

  okay that's great so what if we get

  everybody that opportunity but the thing

  to develop that expertise

  the next level is

  what about at home access to devices

  into internet that was really evident in

  this past year and a half with all the

  things that went on with covet and

  remote teaching and whatnot and learning

  is just the understanding of oh wow most

  of my kids don't even have the ability

  to log into a device or they have one

  device for like five siblings and they

  have really bad internet access like

  that level of inequality compared to

  like myself who had full internet access

  my own personal computer didn't have to

  share with anyone else like

  that really made it so that i could dive

  deeper into some areas where my friends

  could not because they just simply

  didn't have that opportunity so that's

  definitely something we have to continue

  to discuss and

  try and

  improve in some way and very much like

  the work we're doing with script

  there's not going to be a checklist it's

  not going to be that every school or

  community needs to have these 10 things

  right it's going to be

  do students have access

  to devices and high-speed internet

  are there programs available those

  programs might be offered through the

  library they might be offered through a

  community center it might be offered

  through a boys and girls club they might

  be offered by the school itself right

  so the question is about

  like what is the fundamental

  underpinning of what makes something

  equitable

  then how do communities

  create the opportunity and the resource

  for that to exist across the landscape

  and so it might be that you know what

  there is an ipad checkout at the local

  library

  that students can check out an ipad and

  bring it home or

  for new york city right they're putting

  these new york city they were for a

  while putting these new york city links

  that would project wi-fi

  to a radius from these stands which

  actually they put on top of old phone

  booths did you know this

  new york sydney took all of the like

  phone infrastructure yeah and created

  these podiums that basically replaced

  the phone booths that are wi-fi hotspots

  for communities

  that's smart

  with screens on them so that if you

  didn't have your own device you could

  actually do a little browsing in real

  time as well and it was a great way that

  they

  worked on that rather than wiring

  high-speed internet to every apartment

  in every building right

  creating those hot spots was the

  community-based solution for

  providing access to maybe not around the

  clock but not everybody needs it when

  they sleep

  but access to high-speed internet

  to serve the community at scale with

  some level of speed of rollout

  versus trying to

  somehow subsidize

  high-speed internet into every single

  apartment building in the city right so

  there has to be community-based

  solutions that can be creative

  that are centered in the community that

  get to those core

  principles that north star of what we're

  aiming for in order to claim that

  there's some kind of level playing field

  for students as they're making their way

  through

  the educational experiences that

  hopefully launch them into the next

  space i like how you just

  brilliantly like put a bow like you

  wrapped in some previous ideas into that

  closing idea so my last question for you

  is where might people go to connect with

  you and the organizations that you work

  with yeah absolutely so we have a

  website cs4l.org and i think that's your

  best starting point

  for connecting with us you could reach

  out to us at info at cs4.org and i

  actually get that through my inbox so

  that does come through b as well

  and we'll make sure that you connect

  either with me or the right staff member

  for any questions you might have and

  we'd love for you to ask for an office

  hour share our brain participate with us

  in the summit make a commitment we'd

  love to see you and we're looking

  forward to bringing the community

  together around this year's theme which

  is change happens in places at the

  summit in october and with that that

  concludes this week's episode of the

  csk8 podcast i really hope you enjoyed

  this particular interview with leanne

  and i hope you take the time to check

  out some of the resources in the show

  notes at jared o'leary.com if you'd be

  so kind please consider adding a review

  on the podcast app that you listen to

  this on or simply sharing this with a

  colleague who might be interested in

  this particular interview stay tuned

  next week for another episode and until

  then i hope you're all staying safe and

  are having a wonderful week

Guest Bio

Dr. Leigh Ann DeLyser has spent her career building the K-12 computer science (CS) field. As an Executive Director of CSforALL (csforall.org), she oversees programs and strategic planning and supervises research to build support for high quality CS education at all levels. A former high school and university CS educator, Leigh Ann understands challenges faced by teachers, administrators, and students developing their competency in the field and accessing high-quality learning opportunities and resources. Her influential “Running on Empty” report guides policies and research that support high-quality program implementation. Previously, Leigh Ann was Director of Research and Education at CSNYC, which built a foundation for CS in New York City public schools. She received a PhD in Computer Science and Cognitive Psychology, with a focus on CS education, from Carnegie Mellon University.

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Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode

• Other podcast episodes that were mentioned or are relevant to this episode

  • CS for What? Diverse Visions of Computer Science Education in Practice

    • In this episode I unpack Santo, Vogel, and Ching’s (2019) publication titled “CS for What? Diverse Visions of Computer Science Education in Practice,” which is a white paper that provides a useful framework for considering the underlying values and impact of CS programs or resources.

  • Culturally Responsive School Leadership: A Synthesis of Literature

    • In this episode I unpack Khalifa, Gooden, and Davis’ (2016) publication titled “Culturally responsive school leadership: A synthesis of the literature,” which summarizes and synthesizes literature on culturally responsive school leadership as it relates to principals in urban schools.

  • Culturally Responsive-sustaining Computer Science Education: A Framework

    • In this episode I unpack the Kapor Center’s (2021) publication titled “Culturally responsive-sustaining computer science education: A framework,” which describes multiple courses of action for six core components of culturally responsive-sustaining CS education.

  • How to Get Started with Computer Science Education

    • In this episode I provide a framework for how districts and educators can get started with computer science education for free.

  • Pedagogy of the Oppressed

    • Chapter one

      • This episode is the start of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 1, which discusses how oppressors maintain control over the oppressed. Following unpacking scholarship episodes discuss what this looks like in education and how educators can adopt a “pedagogy of the oppressed” to break cycles of oppression.

    • Chapter two

      • This episode is episode two of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 2, which discusses the “banking” approach to education that assumes students are repositories of information, and then proposes a liberatory approach to education that focuses on posing problems that students and teachers collaboratively solve. If you haven’t listened to the discussion on the first chapter, click here.

    • Chapter three

      • This episode is episode three of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 3, which discusses the importance of dialogue when engaging in liberatory practices. This episode builds off the previous unpacking scholarship episodes on chapter one and chapter two, so make sure you listen to those episodes before jumping in here.

    • Chapter four

      • This episode is the final episode of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 4, which synthesizes the concepts introduced in the previous chapters and discusses the difference between anti-dialogical and dialogical practices in education (and at large). This episode builds off the previous unpacking scholarship episodes on chapter one, chapter two, and chapter three so make sure you listen to those episodes before jumping in here.

  • Re-examining Inequalities in Computer Science Participation from a Bourdieusian Sociological Perspective

    • In this episode I unpack Kallia and Cutts’ (2021) publication titled “Re-examining inequalities in computer science participation from a Bourdieusian sociological perspective,” which uses Bourdieu’s discussions of capital, habitus, and field to analyze 147 publications on CS interventions.

  • Reconceptualizing “Music Making:” Music Technology and Freedom in the Age of Neoliberalism

    • In this episode I unpack Benedict and O’Leary’s (2019) publication titled “Reconceptualizing “music making:” Music technology and freedom in the age of Neoliberalism,” which explores the use of computer science practices to counter neoliberal influence on education.

  • Rhizomatic Learning with Catherine Bornhorst, Jon Stapleton, and Katie Henry

    • In this panel discussion with Catherine Bornhorst, Jon Stapleton, and Katie Henry, we discuss what rhizomatic learning is and looks like in formalized educational spaces, affordances and constraints of rhizomatic learning, how to support individual students within a group setting, standards and rhizomatic learning, why few people know and use rhizomatic learning approaches, how to advocate for and learn more about rhizomatic learning, and much more.

  • STEM Diversity and Inclusion Efforts for Women of Color: A Critique of the New Labor System

    • In this episode I unpack Scott and Elliott’s (2020) publication titled “STEM diversity and inclusion efforts for women of color: A critique of the new labor system,” which uses the metaphor of sharecropping to problematize the new labor system around STEM education and careers.

  • The Computer Science Teacher Landscape: Results of a Nationwide Teacher Survey

    • In this episode I unpack Koshy, Martin, Hinton, Scott, Twarek, and Davis’ (2021) publication titled “The Computer Science Teacher Landscape: Results of a Nationwide Teacher Survey,” which provides recommendations for the field based on a summary of findings on teacher demographics, current challenges for CS educators, and the state of cultural relevance in CS education.

  • The CS Visions Framework and Equity-centered Computing Education with Rafi Santo and Sara Vogel

    • In this interview with Rafi Santo and Sara Vogel, we discuss informal learning in CS, the CS Visions Framework, equity through social justice pedagogy, considerations for Integration, and much more.

  • The Role of Deliberate Practice in the Acquisition of Expert Performance

    • In this episode I unpack Ericsson, Krampe, and Tesch-Römer’s (1993) publication titled “The role of deliberate practice in the acquisition of expert performance,” which debunks the notion of innate abilities within a domain and describes the role of deliberate practice in achieving expert performance.

  • Trans Voices Speak: Suggestions from Trans Educators about Working with Trans Students

    • In this episode I unpack Cayari et al.’s (2021) publication titled “Trans voices speak: Suggestions from trans educators about working with trans students,” which provides five suggestions from Trans educations on working with Trans students.

  • More episodes related to CSforALL

  • More episodes related to equity

  • More episodes related to leadership

  • More episodes related to neoliberalism

  • More episodes related to rationale

  • All other episodes

• Learn more about SCRIPT

• Learn more about the CAPE framework

• Books Leigh Ann mentioned

  • Act Like a Leader, Think Like a Leader

  • Beyond Marginality: Understanding the Intersection of Race, Ethnicity, Gender and Difference in Educational Leadership Research

  • Social Startup Success

• Connect with Leigh Ann and CSforALL

  • Attend the virtual 2021 CSforALL Summit

  • Contact CSforALL

  • Follow CSforALL on Twitter

  • Follow Leigh Ann on Twitter

  • Visit CSforALL.org

• Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter

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Free CS Resources I Have Created

• JavaScript (Khan Academy) resources

• Media arts and technology makerspace resources

• Scratch resources

• Sonic Pi resources

• Swift resources

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